The French Paradox...
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cbstewart88 wrote: »Everytime I go to France - I have the best meals of my life and come home thinner. The food is fresh and cooked with care and affection. Since every taste is satisfying, the smaller portions are filling. I would sit on my little hotel's balcony in the evening and watch as the locals finished their workday and stopped at the small food shops across the street and carried the ingredients for that night's dinner home - usually with a fresh loaf of bread sticking out of the brown bag. And they walked!! Eating is never rushed. I ate alone for my 50th birthday in a very well-known and upscale restaurant. I sat there for well over 2 hours - the staff never "rushed me out" because I was taking up space as a lone diner. It is a different lifestyle and attitude - one that our dependence on the automobile and instant gratification and convenience and the spend-less-get-more mind-set has vanquished.
I have the same experience when I go to France (alone: no one wants to join me in my historical-obsession-pilgrimages). My little joke is that in France, 6 hours of my day are automatically accounted for : 2 hours each for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Such nice produce, so nicely prepared! Nothing really upscale on my jaunts, either, but they take their food seriously, and want you to enjoy it seriously. Even the McDonalds in Marseilles was a different experience.1 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So many useless generalisations focused on a keyhole perception of a culture. Pollan's views are interesting, but he generally takes things to such an extreme that if you aren't pushing back... well, you aren't critically thinking.
French average BMI or statistical spread isn't that different from Italy, Belgium, Norway or ... most of Europe. And it's largely based on social pressures, activity levels and to some extend eating habits.
As to smoking, while the stereotype image will probably linger - bans on smoking (as a public health measure) have been getting stronger since the 70s and currently the per capita smoking is lower than in the US, Australia or Germany by about 15%. France has one of the lowest cigarette consumptions per capita in Europe.
(I've lived in France (and Germany) for the past 25 years - in Bordeaux, Paris, Lille, etc... and find that people tend to make their view of French culture extremely focused on the small microcosm that they experience - there is, for example, very little use of duck fat in the north region.)
They may consume fewer cigarettes total, but per the WHO, their total number of smokers blows the US out of the water. For adults, 37.4% of men and 30.2% of women smoke, vs. 21.6% of men and 16.5% of women in the US. And 20% of French 15 year olds (both m and f) smoke, vs. 8.2/7.8% of US teens aged 13 to 15. For some fun perusal: http://www.who.int/tobacco/global_report/2013/appendix_xi/en/
And surely--SURELY--the French would not brazenly flout anti-smoking laws??? After all, they are on the books, right?
Although I do understand e-cigarettes are becoming increasingly popular. It's kind of sad in a way, like if the cigarettes in Casa Blanca were edited out and replaced with whatever those vaping machines are called. The first shot of Bogie would be him going "haaaaaarkkk!!"
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KombuchaKat wrote: »Since the French still eat real food that is satiating they do not have to try and circumvent the blood sugar roller coaster with the latest scientific "discovery." Snacks/lots of small meals are a new phenomenon that I believe is mostly the result of our eating more processed carbs and sugar as well as too little fat.
Plenty of snacks have lots of fat (typically as many calories from fat as carbs or close).
But more significantly, I don't think it has a thing to do with how satiating our food is. In my early 20s and late teens (college) is probably when I ate the worst and most carb heavy (not the same thing) diet in terms of food choices in my life, and yet I didn't snack all the time or feel hungry, since I had meals available 3 times per day and little opportunity to eat between meals. Since food wasn't on offer all the time, I didn't think about it or miss it.
When I got fat in my late 30s I was eating mostly home-cooked, filling foods (I was actually in a bit of a "all natural" kind of phase when it came to what I made, more than now), but I was also prone to using food (which was constantly available at work and elsewhere) for all kinds of non hunger related purposes (although I wouldn't have acknowledged that then -- I wasn't really aware of it). AND, more to the point, when I didn't focus on schedule and just grazed when I felt like it, the presence of food that seemed tasty (often homemade treats from my then assistant, who has a catering business on the side and likes to try things out on people here) would make me want to eat even if I wasn't actually hungry.
I think the idea that people overeat because they are too hungry not to is basically a cop-out. I overate because humans are (in most cases) not that sensitive to hunger cues alone -- if you think about it, through most of our history we had need to eat when food was available and to accept longer periods of food scarcity -- and enjoy food.
Also, the claim that fat is inherently satiating bugs me. It is for a minority of people, according to studies. It's not for me at all. One food I overate the most was cheese (I bought good quality cheese too). I also could overeat it despite having a nutritionally rich meal with lots of vegetables just before.1 -
KombuchaKat wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Like I said above, a few years in France and 10 kilo heavier. Most french people aren't skinny as the book seems to say.
In fact most are over normal, some chubs around the middle. But no one seems to care, the isn't any shame about that in South France anyhow. Paris is another story.
And considering a certain Paris body culture as the reference for the country is like considering LA body culture as the reference for the rest of the USA.
Even if the French are not all super in shape or bean polls I think it's safe to say there are not nearly as many morbidly obese people. Health does not mean you have to look like a fashion model, but it also doesn't look like My 500 lb life or whatever that show is.
Most Americans don't look like My 500 Lb life either. Most people I personally know aren't even overweight or more than a bit, perhaps because in this particular subculture it's more frowned upon and people tend to be health conscious and into various active pursuits more than in some others.
I do think more of a slow food/mindful eating focus would be helpful (and less that the value of food is how much of a bargain it is leading to giant portions) and that that is at least somewhat a difference between the US and much of Europe, but will admit that might be romanticized/based on me seeing the negatives in the US more clearly since I live here.
I think other countries are becoming more like the US, but that the US is a leader in part because we had less of a food culture in the first place (and of course less need to be active in daily life because of car culture and how our suburbs tend to be built, etc.).1 -
Executive summary - as the French pick up American habits, they get fatter.0 -
I still don't get this. I lived in France until I was 23. Most of what people say about French people is, in my experience, not true at all.
Smaller portions? It depends. Ok, packaged food has smaller servings (yogurts etc). Restaurants don't serve huge servings but again, it really depends on where you eat (same as here).
No snacking? NOPE. Kids have a snack when they come back from school too (le goûter). Heck when I worked in a big company there, there were plenty of people going for a snack and coffee at 4pm too.
Eating together - yeah, sure. But meals are later there. By 8-8.30pm, all afterschool activities are done, and that's when I used to have dinner. But my mom's always complaining when she comes over about how we eat the 'American way' and don't all eat at the same time on week ends etc (but we don't have breakfast at the same time, don't get hungry at the same time, and having to set the table for everyone and reheat everything is just a drag when people can just fix their own plates from leftovers and heat that...).
A French baker I worked with for a few months here was telling me that the main difference is that French stuff uses higher quality and less processed ingredients, so it's more satisfying, but I'm quite sure that they are not doing that as much anymore. Main difference for me when I lived there - much less processed food overall. I mean I never heard of mac n'cheese or hamburger helper etc. Farmer markets everywhere 2x a week too.
Mostly though, better public transport and more walking. Towns are not set up the same way than here at all and I never lived more than a couple blocks away from a supermarket too.. so I just never had to drive as much over there than here.
And yeah... 35 hour week = more time to cook and do something else than sit at a desk.1 -
I see a difference between eating a planned snack, like an afternoon or after-school snack, and eating all through the day. I'm old enough that kids were generally all normal weight when I was a kid, and after-school snacks were common. But we didn't have food beyond that and regular meals and certainly not high cal drinks all day and stuff like that.
Pollan could still be wrong, of course -- I defer to others' expertise on other countries -- but I don't think a planned snack contradicts it.
Definitely see the walking aspect -- I'm lucky that I can basically walk or take public transportation anywhere, can walk to multiple grocery stores and farmers markets, etc. Some suburbs in the US don't even have sidewalks.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Executive summary - as the French pick up American habits, they get fatter.
America!!!
*******kitten******** yeah!!!1 -
I'm no expert on France, but the big difference I see in Italy is an emphasis on "quality" not "quantity". Everybody talks about food, how it's raised, where it comes from, etc. There is alot more food knowledge. Cooking something healthy and great tasting is an art and people try to reach that pinacle. I'm American and when I go home that's missing.1
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I think food marketing and advertising has a major role in obesity epidemic.0
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snowflake954 wrote: »I'm no expert on France, but the big difference I see in Italy is an emphasis on "quality" not "quantity". Everybody talks about food, how it's raised, where it comes from, etc. There is alot more food knowledge. Cooking something healthy and great tasting is an art and people try to reach that pinacle. I'm American and when I go home that's missing.
I agree there. In France it's more about 'artisan' food than mass produced stuff. And I guess kids are more likely to snack on yogurt or freshly baked goods than a whole bag of goldfish or something.
Obviously though I'm a really bad example - my mom used to take me to the supermarket with her and let me buy what I want, so I ate a lot of prepackaged cookies or puddings too...
Oh a huge difference though that I never see mentioned - school and work meals. When I grew up I could either come home to eat for lunch (there was a 1.5 hour break for lunch - gave kids a LOT of recess time too, compared to here) or eat at school where balanced meals were served - meat, veggies, some bread, a serving of cheese, and a small dessert/fruit. No option either, kid ate that or went hungry - never once did we have chicken nuggets or pizza. Obviously it's been a long time but I still don't think that French people pack lunch for their kids (and really... I pack my kids lunch and convenience is often the main factor, frankly). Point is - LESS PICKY KIDS.
And a lot of companies have cafeterias with healthy options too... Even when they didn't and gave us meal coupons, there were plenty of options around... In general I guess that French people put less toppings on their sandwiches/crepes/pizzas, and sandwiches almost never come with fries. And healthier options are not 3x the price of a burger and fries like here.
But again, I moved here 16 years ago so I'm sure that things have changed since.
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snowflake954 wrote: »I'm no expert on France, but the big difference I see in Italy is an emphasis on "quality" not "quantity". Everybody talks about food, how it's raised, where it comes from, etc. There is alot more food knowledge. Cooking something healthy and great tasting is an art and people try to reach that pinacle. I'm American and when I go home that's missing.
I agree there. In France it's more about 'artisan' food than mass produced stuff. And I guess kids are more likely to snack on yogurt or freshly baked goods than a whole bag of goldfish or something.
Obviously though I'm a really bad example - my mom used to take me to the supermarket with her and let me buy what I want, so I ate a lot of prepackaged cookies or puddings too...
Oh a huge difference though that I never see mentioned - school and work meals. When I grew up I could either come home to eat for lunch (there was a 1.5 hour break for lunch - gave kids a LOT of recess time too, compared to here) or eat at school where balanced meals were served - meat, veggies, some bread, a serving of cheese, and a small dessert/fruit. No option either, kid ate that or went hungry - never once did we have chicken nuggets or pizza. Obviously it's been a long time but I still don't think that French people pack lunch for their kids (and really... I pack my kids lunch and convenience is often the main factor, frankly). Point is - LESS PICKY KIDS.
And a lot of companies have cafeterias with healthy options too... Even when they didn't and gave us meal coupons, there were plenty of options around... In general I guess that French people put less toppings on their sandwiches/crepes/pizzas, and sandwiches almost never come with fries. And healthier options are not 3x the price of a burger and fries like here.
But again, I moved here 16 years ago so I'm sure that things have changed since.
I was waiting for your response!
For me.. Im the first person born in America (family from Italy) and they hardly ever had anything processed and even now my family there doesn't eat much processed (and by that i don't mean literally i mean packaged foods with additives) they either make for buy fresh breads and pastas that needs to be consumed fast. Also walking walking walking walking. Driving rarely happens at least for my family.1 -
Oh a huge difference though that I never see mentioned - school and work meals. When I grew up I could either come home to eat for lunch (there was a 1.5 hour break for lunch - gave kids a LOT of recess time too, compared to here) or eat at school where balanced meals were served - meat, veggies, some bread, a serving of cheese, and a small dessert/fruit. No option either, kid ate that or went hungry - never once did we have chicken nuggets or pizza. Obviously it's been a long time but I still don't think that French people pack lunch for their kids (and really... I pack my kids lunch and convenience is often the main factor, frankly). Point is - LESS PICKY KIDS.
And a lot of companies have cafeterias with healthy options too...
But again, I moved here 16 years ago so I'm sure that things have changed since.
Hi ! I'm French and a teacher. Things haven't changed from what you saw years ago. Kids aren't allowed to bring a packed lunch into school, so they eat the meal at the canteen : a starter, some meat or fish with veggies and rice or pasta, bread and cheese and a dessert (fruit, yogurt). It's a big, filling meal and indeed it teaches balanced habits. Or they eat at home but most can't as at my school they come from surrounding villages and there are no school buses at lunch time. We have 1 hour and a half for lunch break.
They do bring sweets for their snack though. There is zero obese kid at my school, and I never see obese people in France. Overweight yes definitely. (myself included a few years back).
I was in the UK a couple of weeks ago and did notice that UK teens were way heavier than French teens. But in the UK there's food everywhere and at all times ! So difficult to resist. You can't go buy a magazine without seeing tons of chocolate bars. In France's newsagents there are books, magazines, postcards and that's it. Maybe a couple single serve Haribo packets or chewing gums.
I put on quite a bit of weight when I lived in the UK as a student...
This summer I'm going to the US and I can't wait to discover the differences ! It's so interesting.
I think the key in France is although we do snack ( le goûter as you said), we have this vision of 3 to 4 structured / balanced meals a day and then we get on with our day. We don't have anarchic snacking as in the UK.
Obviously some of us still like eating a bit too much ie why I'm on here ^^.
Oh and I'll just add for the other commenters, I don't smoke and most of my friends and family don't either, and we don't eat duck fat in the north. Less smokers in France nowadays.0 -
lululapagaille wrote: »Oh a huge difference though that I never see mentioned - school and work meals. When I grew up I could either come home to eat for lunch (there was a 1.5 hour break for lunch - gave kids a LOT of recess time too, compared to here) or eat at school where balanced meals were served - meat, veggies, some bread, a serving of cheese, and a small dessert/fruit. No option either, kid ate that or went hungry - never once did we have chicken nuggets or pizza. Obviously it's been a long time but I still don't think that French people pack lunch for their kids (and really... I pack my kids lunch and convenience is often the main factor, frankly). Point is - LESS PICKY KIDS.
And a lot of companies have cafeterias with healthy options too...
But again, I moved here 16 years ago so I'm sure that things have changed since.
Hi ! I'm French and a teacher. Things haven't changed from what you saw years ago. Kids aren't allowed to bring a packed lunch into school, so they eat the meal at the canteen : a starter, some meat or fish with veggies and rice or pasta, bread and cheese and a dessert (fruit, yogurt). It's a big, filling meal and indeed it teaches balanced habits. Or they eat at home but most can't as at my school they come from surrounding villages and there are no school buses at lunch time. We have 1 hour and a half for lunch break.
They do bring sweets for their snack though. There is zero obese kid at my school, and I never see obese people in France. Overweight yes definitely. (myself included a few years back).
I was in the UK a couple of weeks ago and did notice that UK teens were way heavier than French teens. But in the UK there's food everywhere and at all times ! So difficult to resist. You can't go buy a magazine without seeing tons of chocolate bars. In France's newsagents there are books, magazines, postcards and that's it. Maybe a couple single serve Haribo packets or chewing gums.
I put on quite a bit of weight when I lived in the UK as a student...
This summer I'm going to the US and I can't wait to discover the differences ! It's so interesting.
I think the key in France is although we do snack ( le goûter as you said), we have this vision of 3 to 4 structured / balanced meals a day and then we get on with our day. We don't have anarchic snacking as in the UK.
Obviously some of us still like eating a bit too much ie why I'm on here ^^.
Oh and I'll just add for the other commenters, I don't smoke and most of my friends and family don't either, and we don't eat duck fat in the north. Less smokers in France nowadays.
Thanks for posting! I admit I don't really ask my sister about how things have changed. Good to hear about the smokers, it was crazy when I grew up.0 -
i've almost stopped enjoying the process of 'eating' after thinking after breaking food down into components and counting calories
Really though, I sometimes wish I could go back to being a kid who ran around without thinking of it as an excessive chore and eat when I'm hungry until I'm full0
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