The French Paradox...
J72FIT
Posts: 6,014 Member
"Americans are amazed to learn that some of the cultures that set their culinary course by the light of habit and pleasure rather then nutritional science and marketing are actually healthier then we are–that is, suffer a lower incidence of diet-related health troubles.
The French paradox is the most famous such case, though as Paul Rozin points out, the French don't regard the matter as paradoxical at all. We Americans resort to that term because the French experience–a population of wine-swilling cheese eaters with lower rates of heart disease and obesity–confounds our orthodoxy about food. That orthodoxy regards certain tasty foods as poisons (carbs now, fats then), failing to appreciate that how we eat, and even how we feel about eating, may in the end be just as important as what we eat. The French eat all sorts of supposedly unhealthy foods, but they do it according to a strict and stable set of rules: They eat small portions and don't go back for seconds; they don't snack; they seldom eat alone; and communal meals are long, leisurely affairs. In other words, the French culture of food successfully negotiates the omnivore's dilemma, allowing the French to enjoy their meals without ruining their health.
Perhaps because we have no such culture of food in America almost every question about eating is up for grabs. Fats or carbs? Three squares or continuous grazing? Raw or cooked? Organic or industrial? Veg or vegan? Meat or mock meat? Foods of astounding novelty fill the shelves of our supermarket, and the line between a food and a "nutritional supplement" has fogged to the point where people make meals of protein bars and shakes. Consuming these neo-pseudo-foods alone in our cars, we have become a nation of antinomian eaters, each of us struggling to work out our dietary salvation on our own. Is it any wonder American's suffer from so many eating disorders? In the absence of any lasting consensus about what and how and where to eat, the omnivore's dilemma has returned to America with an almost atavistic force."
–Michael Pollan, The Omnivore's Dilemma
The French paradox is the most famous such case, though as Paul Rozin points out, the French don't regard the matter as paradoxical at all. We Americans resort to that term because the French experience–a population of wine-swilling cheese eaters with lower rates of heart disease and obesity–confounds our orthodoxy about food. That orthodoxy regards certain tasty foods as poisons (carbs now, fats then), failing to appreciate that how we eat, and even how we feel about eating, may in the end be just as important as what we eat. The French eat all sorts of supposedly unhealthy foods, but they do it according to a strict and stable set of rules: They eat small portions and don't go back for seconds; they don't snack; they seldom eat alone; and communal meals are long, leisurely affairs. In other words, the French culture of food successfully negotiates the omnivore's dilemma, allowing the French to enjoy their meals without ruining their health.
Perhaps because we have no such culture of food in America almost every question about eating is up for grabs. Fats or carbs? Three squares or continuous grazing? Raw or cooked? Organic or industrial? Veg or vegan? Meat or mock meat? Foods of astounding novelty fill the shelves of our supermarket, and the line between a food and a "nutritional supplement" has fogged to the point where people make meals of protein bars and shakes. Consuming these neo-pseudo-foods alone in our cars, we have become a nation of antinomian eaters, each of us struggling to work out our dietary salvation on our own. Is it any wonder American's suffer from so many eating disorders? In the absence of any lasting consensus about what and how and where to eat, the omnivore's dilemma has returned to America with an almost atavistic force."
–Michael Pollan, The Omnivore's Dilemma
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So true, and such a problem for so many of us. Whenever I am tempted to eat dinner in front of the TV, I remind myself that eating at the table as a family is important for us nutritionally, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically. I am so appreciative that my mom "made" us eat at the dinner table, and I'm going to make sure my two-year old daughter can be appreciative of that, too.
Now to stop eating breakfast and lunch at my desk ...2 -
Yeah, I tend to agree with Pollan.
People seem to think that humans should be able to naturally control how much we eat just based on hunger signals, but in pretty much all human cultures there have been cultural rules (in addition to scarcity) that did so. That the US has such a poor food culture, as well as such an emphasis on individuality and rejecting customs plays into the way we've been a worldwide leader in obesity.2 -
I lived in France for a few years. We adopted the french ways of livng and I gained 20 pounds. The french people we lived around (that was in three different villages in southish france) were mostly a bit on the chubby side. Probably high normal and into overweight bmi. The thing was was that they are very healthy into old age in France, active, as in walk every day to groceries, play neighborhood games of bowling outside, bike ride rather than do automobiles.
I was taken by surprise once when across the front of the grocery store I read a large banner that read ' This Week, All Duck Fat On Sale'! The thing is there that grocery stores sell a lot of foi gras, fatted duck liver in jars, not just that, they sell plain old duck fat by the can. These cans are large sized cans, like 2 liters! So they use it in lots of cooking. For instance white bean dishes with bits of duck and plenty of herbs and a lot of duck grease. Its really tasty! Of couse there is also the bread and the millions of types of cheeses too. And crepes of all kinds, ever kind of filling, from sweets to meats.
The only skinny people I saw in France lived in Paris, who seemed to live off coffee and cigs.3 -
Let's not forget a healthy dose of vanity and food snobbery either.
The choice between having another slice of cheese cake and possible not fitting into your glorious bespoke clothing? Pass on the cheesecake please.
All you can eat buffet? Grand closing. Quality not quantity and good cooking please.
The "no snacking" thing for me at least is the heart of weight control. It's pretty simple. If I can control my snacking I can control my weight.0 -
Everytime I go to France - I have the best meals of my life and come home thinner. The food is fresh and cooked with care and affection. Since every taste is satisfying, the smaller portions are filling. I would sit on my little hotel's balcony in the evening and watch as the locals finished their workday and stopped at the small food shops across the street and carried the ingredients for that night's dinner home - usually with a fresh loaf of bread sticking out of the brown bag. And they walked!! Eating is never rushed. I ate alone for my 50th birthday in a very well-known and upscale restaurant. I sat there for well over 2 hours - the staff never "rushed me out" because I was taking up space as a lone diner. It is a different lifestyle and attitude - one that our dependence on the automobile and instant gratification and convenience and the spend-less-get-more mind-set has vanquished.6
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Perhaps we should all take up petits dejeuners consisting of black coffee and a Gauloise, which would help us stay svelte, not to mention brooding and mysterious. It's a key part of the "French paradox" that Pollan leaves out for some reason.
Déjeuner du matin
Il a mis le café
Dans la tasse
Il a mis le lait
Dans la tasse de café
Il a mis le sucre
Dans le café au lait
Avec la petite cuiller
Il a tourné
Il a bu le café au lait
Et il a reposé la tasse
Sans me parler
Il a allumé
Une cigarette
Il a fait des ronds
Avec la fumée
Il a mis les cendres
Dans le cendrier
Sans me parler
Sans me regarder
Il s’est levé
Il a mis
Son chapeau sur sa tête
Il a mis
Son manteau de pluie
Parce qu’il pleuvait
Et il est parti
Sous la pluie
Sans une parole
Sans me regarder
Et moi j’ai pris
Ma tête dans mes mains
Et j’ai pleuré.
Anyway, I don't smoke, but as I have said before, you can pry my baguette out of my cold dead hands, and even then I will come back and haunt you. Because the baguette.1 -
Maybe also its because food is a lot more expensive in France than in the States. French people seem to focus a lot on cooking and good food, its never about 'just fueling the body'.0
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The "no snacking" thing for me at least is the heart of weight control. It's pretty simple. If I can control my snacking I can control my weight.
Yep. I know eating lots of snacks or grazing or mini meals works for some, but snacking is bad for me. If I just eat regular meals I'm happy and eat fewer calories and make better choices overall.
It's remarkable how much food is constantly on offer (at least where I live and work), but up to me to decide when I will eat.
I think a good food culture tends to weigh against thoughtless or mindless eating, just 'cause it's there, and making sure I appreciate the food I eat and make it really good is something else that works for me.2 -
....I remember distinctly ordering a cheese omelette at a restaurant before my flight to Paris. It was HUGE - it hung off my plate like a dead fish. It tasted like wet cardboard. The next morning in Nice - I ordered a cheese omelette. It was tiny. About the size of a deck of cards. But it tasted like a yellow cloud. I lingered over every bite. I couldn't even finish it....
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So many useless generalisations focused on a keyhole perception of a culture. Pollan's views are interesting, but he generally takes things to such an extreme that if you aren't pushing back... well, you aren't critically thinking.
French average BMI or statistical spread isn't that different from Italy, Belgium, Norway or ... most of Europe. And it's largely based on social pressures, activity levels and to some extend eating habits.
As to smoking, while the stereotype image will probably linger - bans on smoking (as a public health measure) have been getting stronger since the 70s and currently the per capita smoking is lower than in the US, Australia or Germany by about 15%. France has one of the lowest cigarette consumptions per capita in Europe.
(I've lived in France (and Germany) for the past 25 years - in Bordeaux, Paris, Lille, etc... and find that people tend to make their view of French culture extremely focused on the small microcosm that they experience - there is, for example, very little use of duck fat in the north region.)1 -
Oui, its true, ice cream and pastries and macaroons and etc. ce' la vie0
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Like I said above, a few years in France and 10 kilo heavier. Most french people aren't skinny as the book seems to say.
In fact most are over normal, some chubs around the middle. But no one seems to care, the isn't any shame about that in South France anyhow. Paris is another story.0 -
Like I said above, a few years in France and 10 kilo heavier. Most french people aren't skinny as the book seems to say.
In fact most are over normal, some chubs around the middle. But no one seems to care, the isn't any shame about that in South France anyhow. Paris is another story.
And considering a certain Paris body culture as the reference for the country is like considering LA body culture as the reference for the rest of the USA.0 -
Oh good. Another wild generalization about nationalities.1
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Since the French still eat real food that is satiating they do not have to try and circumvent the blood sugar roller coaster with the latest scientific "discovery." Snacks/lots of small meals are a new phenomenon that I believe is mostly the result of our eating more processed carbs and sugar as well as too little fat. When you eat fat and nutritionally dense food you can go for hours and hours without eating. Most people I know that seem to do well with eating very often are "skinny fat" and would be skinny no matter what they ate. That doesn't mean that their insides aren't a mess, though.3
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I'm married to a French national, and spend a lot of time in France.
And I can tell you now that this idealized and romanticized version of 'French eating' does not exist.
They snack, we snack, you snack. Some people over eat, some don't. Some people are overweight, some aren't. They buy bread, we buy bread, you buy bread.
Their stores, supermarkets, and hypermarkets are full of the same things as ours. There's isle upon isle of convienience food, snacks, ice cream and sweets.3 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Like I said above, a few years in France and 10 kilo heavier. Most french people aren't skinny as the book seems to say.
In fact most are over normal, some chubs around the middle. But no one seems to care, the isn't any shame about that in South France anyhow. Paris is another story.
And considering a certain Paris body culture as the reference for the country is like considering LA body culture as the reference for the rest of the USA.
Even if the French are not all super in shape or bean polls I think it's safe to say there are not nearly as many morbidly obese people. Health does not mean you have to look like a fashion model, but it also doesn't look like My 500 lb life or whatever that show is.0 -
It's no coincidence that the French are healthier. A work week in France is famously limited by law to 35 hours. In the US, there is no limit. The food in France is much healthier than the food in the US. There are so many chemicals in US food. The French walk everywhere. Americans drive everywhere. The French have no military and free healthcare. The US has a huge military and expensive healthcare. (This is expected to change for France and the US when Trump becomes president)0
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johnnylakis wrote: »It's no coincidence that the French are healthier. A work week in France is famously limited by law to 35 hours. In the US, there is no limit. The food in France is much healthier than the food in the US. There are so many chemicals in US food. The French walk everywhere. Americans drive everywhere. The French have no military and free healthcare. The US has a huge military and expensive healthcare. (This is expected to change for France and the US when Trump becomes president)
The French don't have a military? I'm pretty sure that will surprise the 365,000 people who are currently active members of the French Armed Forces.
And French food has chemicals.
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cbstewart88 wrote: »Everytime I go to France - I have the best meals of my life and come home thinner. The food is fresh and cooked with care and affection. Since every taste is satisfying, the smaller portions are filling. I would sit on my little hotel's balcony in the evening and watch as the locals finished their workday and stopped at the small food shops across the street and carried the ingredients for that night's dinner home - usually with a fresh loaf of bread sticking out of the brown bag. And they walked!! Eating is never rushed. I ate alone for my 50th birthday in a very well-known and upscale restaurant. I sat there for well over 2 hours - the staff never "rushed me out" because I was taking up space as a lone diner. It is a different lifestyle and attitude - one that our dependence on the automobile and instant gratification and convenience and the spend-less-get-more mind-set has vanquished.
I have the same experience when I go to France (alone: no one wants to join me in my historical-obsession-pilgrimages). My little joke is that in France, 6 hours of my day are automatically accounted for : 2 hours each for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Such nice produce, so nicely prepared! Nothing really upscale on my jaunts, either, but they take their food seriously, and want you to enjoy it seriously. Even the McDonalds in Marseilles was a different experience.1 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So many useless generalisations focused on a keyhole perception of a culture. Pollan's views are interesting, but he generally takes things to such an extreme that if you aren't pushing back... well, you aren't critically thinking.
French average BMI or statistical spread isn't that different from Italy, Belgium, Norway or ... most of Europe. And it's largely based on social pressures, activity levels and to some extend eating habits.
As to smoking, while the stereotype image will probably linger - bans on smoking (as a public health measure) have been getting stronger since the 70s and currently the per capita smoking is lower than in the US, Australia or Germany by about 15%. France has one of the lowest cigarette consumptions per capita in Europe.
(I've lived in France (and Germany) for the past 25 years - in Bordeaux, Paris, Lille, etc... and find that people tend to make their view of French culture extremely focused on the small microcosm that they experience - there is, for example, very little use of duck fat in the north region.)
They may consume fewer cigarettes total, but per the WHO, their total number of smokers blows the US out of the water. For adults, 37.4% of men and 30.2% of women smoke, vs. 21.6% of men and 16.5% of women in the US. And 20% of French 15 year olds (both m and f) smoke, vs. 8.2/7.8% of US teens aged 13 to 15. For some fun perusal: http://www.who.int/tobacco/global_report/2013/appendix_xi/en/
And surely--SURELY--the French would not brazenly flout anti-smoking laws??? After all, they are on the books, right?
Although I do understand e-cigarettes are becoming increasingly popular. It's kind of sad in a way, like if the cigarettes in Casa Blanca were edited out and replaced with whatever those vaping machines are called. The first shot of Bogie would be him going "haaaaaarkkk!!"
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KombuchaKat wrote: »Since the French still eat real food that is satiating they do not have to try and circumvent the blood sugar roller coaster with the latest scientific "discovery." Snacks/lots of small meals are a new phenomenon that I believe is mostly the result of our eating more processed carbs and sugar as well as too little fat.
Plenty of snacks have lots of fat (typically as many calories from fat as carbs or close).
But more significantly, I don't think it has a thing to do with how satiating our food is. In my early 20s and late teens (college) is probably when I ate the worst and most carb heavy (not the same thing) diet in terms of food choices in my life, and yet I didn't snack all the time or feel hungry, since I had meals available 3 times per day and little opportunity to eat between meals. Since food wasn't on offer all the time, I didn't think about it or miss it.
When I got fat in my late 30s I was eating mostly home-cooked, filling foods (I was actually in a bit of a "all natural" kind of phase when it came to what I made, more than now), but I was also prone to using food (which was constantly available at work and elsewhere) for all kinds of non hunger related purposes (although I wouldn't have acknowledged that then -- I wasn't really aware of it). AND, more to the point, when I didn't focus on schedule and just grazed when I felt like it, the presence of food that seemed tasty (often homemade treats from my then assistant, who has a catering business on the side and likes to try things out on people here) would make me want to eat even if I wasn't actually hungry.
I think the idea that people overeat because they are too hungry not to is basically a cop-out. I overate because humans are (in most cases) not that sensitive to hunger cues alone -- if you think about it, through most of our history we had need to eat when food was available and to accept longer periods of food scarcity -- and enjoy food.
Also, the claim that fat is inherently satiating bugs me. It is for a minority of people, according to studies. It's not for me at all. One food I overate the most was cheese (I bought good quality cheese too). I also could overeat it despite having a nutritionally rich meal with lots of vegetables just before.1 -
KombuchaKat wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Like I said above, a few years in France and 10 kilo heavier. Most french people aren't skinny as the book seems to say.
In fact most are over normal, some chubs around the middle. But no one seems to care, the isn't any shame about that in South France anyhow. Paris is another story.
And considering a certain Paris body culture as the reference for the country is like considering LA body culture as the reference for the rest of the USA.
Even if the French are not all super in shape or bean polls I think it's safe to say there are not nearly as many morbidly obese people. Health does not mean you have to look like a fashion model, but it also doesn't look like My 500 lb life or whatever that show is.
Most Americans don't look like My 500 Lb life either. Most people I personally know aren't even overweight or more than a bit, perhaps because in this particular subculture it's more frowned upon and people tend to be health conscious and into various active pursuits more than in some others.
I do think more of a slow food/mindful eating focus would be helpful (and less that the value of food is how much of a bargain it is leading to giant portions) and that that is at least somewhat a difference between the US and much of Europe, but will admit that might be romanticized/based on me seeing the negatives in the US more clearly since I live here.
I think other countries are becoming more like the US, but that the US is a leader in part because we had less of a food culture in the first place (and of course less need to be active in daily life because of car culture and how our suburbs tend to be built, etc.).1 -
Executive summary - as the French pick up American habits, they get fatter.0 -
I still don't get this. I lived in France until I was 23. Most of what people say about French people is, in my experience, not true at all.
Smaller portions? It depends. Ok, packaged food has smaller servings (yogurts etc). Restaurants don't serve huge servings but again, it really depends on where you eat (same as here).
No snacking? NOPE. Kids have a snack when they come back from school too (le goûter). Heck when I worked in a big company there, there were plenty of people going for a snack and coffee at 4pm too.
Eating together - yeah, sure. But meals are later there. By 8-8.30pm, all afterschool activities are done, and that's when I used to have dinner. But my mom's always complaining when she comes over about how we eat the 'American way' and don't all eat at the same time on week ends etc (but we don't have breakfast at the same time, don't get hungry at the same time, and having to set the table for everyone and reheat everything is just a drag when people can just fix their own plates from leftovers and heat that...).
A French baker I worked with for a few months here was telling me that the main difference is that French stuff uses higher quality and less processed ingredients, so it's more satisfying, but I'm quite sure that they are not doing that as much anymore. Main difference for me when I lived there - much less processed food overall. I mean I never heard of mac n'cheese or hamburger helper etc. Farmer markets everywhere 2x a week too.
Mostly though, better public transport and more walking. Towns are not set up the same way than here at all and I never lived more than a couple blocks away from a supermarket too.. so I just never had to drive as much over there than here.
And yeah... 35 hour week = more time to cook and do something else than sit at a desk.1 -
I see a difference between eating a planned snack, like an afternoon or after-school snack, and eating all through the day. I'm old enough that kids were generally all normal weight when I was a kid, and after-school snacks were common. But we didn't have food beyond that and regular meals and certainly not high cal drinks all day and stuff like that.
Pollan could still be wrong, of course -- I defer to others' expertise on other countries -- but I don't think a planned snack contradicts it.
Definitely see the walking aspect -- I'm lucky that I can basically walk or take public transportation anywhere, can walk to multiple grocery stores and farmers markets, etc. Some suburbs in the US don't even have sidewalks.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Executive summary - as the French pick up American habits, they get fatter.
America!!!
*******kitten******** yeah!!!1 -
I'm no expert on France, but the big difference I see in Italy is an emphasis on "quality" not "quantity". Everybody talks about food, how it's raised, where it comes from, etc. There is alot more food knowledge. Cooking something healthy and great tasting is an art and people try to reach that pinacle. I'm American and when I go home that's missing.1
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