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Want to help design a relative LCHF experiment for Endurance?

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  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    Tagging this experiment. I would do it, but every time I eat below 150g I feel like I wanna die. And I can't run... too many knee issues.
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?
    edited May 2016
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    Was the RQ in the video resting or running ?
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    yarwell wrote: »
    Was the RQ in the video resting or running ?

    To be honest, I don't remember.
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    this is the objective :-

    5dkez4kqaszl.jpg

  • DorkothyParkerDorkothyParker Posts: 618Member Member Posts: 618Member Member
    I'm much smaller scale. I'm keto (<20 NET carbs) and just started training for a half-marathon in mid-July. I've never been a distance runner, but I've enjoyed jogging here and there in my adulthood.

    I am utilizing my Fitbit HR and basing my speed on my heart rate (it came in at 150-155 on my first jog). I run fasted in the mornings.
    I use this training guide: http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51131/Half-Marathon-Novice-1-Training-Program minus week 6 since I only have 11 weeks. :D

    If you make a group, I'll join. I'll see what I can offer.
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    Would body fat percentage be a factor to track?
    edited May 2016
  • vanishingmedicvanishingmedic Posts: 4Member Member Posts: 4Member Member
    Another huge benefit I get from the LCHF lifestyle with endurance training was I noticed I had a lot less inflammation and less recovery time between my workouts.
  • willammoneywillammoney Posts: 210Member Member Posts: 210Member Member
    I've been on a LCHF diet for the last year. I've ran my first full marathon on this and last month I completed my second Ironman 70.3 on nothing more than one packet of almond butter. That's 5,000 calories I burned and 7 hours of work with about 200 calories in. I've raced with high carb prior and would have the "crash" during my races. With LCHF I feel like I could go forever. Check out the book "Primal Endurance".

    Darn impressive
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Good points.

    I'm creating my baseline diet tracking now. Say 4 weeks of baseline weight loss, tracking and activities (running, cycling, light parkour, climbing, gym 4+x per week), 4 weeks LCHF Induction, 2-4 weeks performance comparison.
    4 weeks return to NCNF diet.

    I currently keep refuel down to a minimum (about 100 cals per hr on effort exceeding 2 hrs). I'll log those with the run if I do, for the period.
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?

    I hate HIIT.
    I should probably include HIIT but I don't do it. You just want me to feel miserable. I can imagine that intensity work on low carbs is gonna suck.

    Ok, I'm curious and will add it, but only a few test sessions via hill sprints. If I die, it's on you.

    Weight training is something I do inconsistently. Can probably track better for 12-16 weeks.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    psuLemon wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?

    I hate HIIT.
    I should probably include HIIT but I don't do it. You just want me to feel miserable. I can imagine that intensity work on low carbs is gonna suck.

    Ok, I'm curious and will add it, but only a few test sessions via hill sprints. If I die, it's on you.

    Weight training is something I do inconsistently. Can probably track better for 12-16 weeks.

    I was more suggesting that in the effort to gather as much data, would you want to limit this experiment to only endurance workouts or have it be more broad. I can't do long distance running due to knee issues but I tend to do very well with HIIT and weight training. I might be interested in the experiment (since I already know my maintenance levels and I regularly track my lifts (reps/weight/sets)). Meaning, if you want to limit things to only endurance, I cannot support. If you want to see how it affects other workouts, I can participate (or at least try to) and provide some results.
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?

    I hate HIIT.
    I should probably include HIIT but I don't do it. You just want me to feel miserable. I can imagine that intensity work on low carbs is gonna suck.

    Ok, I'm curious and will add it, but only a few test sessions via hill sprints. If I die, it's on you.

    Weight training is something I do inconsistently. Can probably track better for 12-16 weeks.

    I was more suggesting that in the effort to gather as much data, would you want to limit this experiment to only endurance workouts or have it be more broad. I can't do long distance running due to knee issues but I tend to do very well with HIIT and weight training. I might be interested in the experiment (since I already know my maintenance levels and I regularly track my lifts (reps/weight/sets)). Meaning, if you want to limit things to only endurance, I cannot support. If you want to see how it affects other workouts, I can participate (or at least try to) and provide some results.

    My focus on this is endurance but performance capacity sits right next to it; that's why your suggestion makes sense. The more the merrier! :wink:

    So, I agree that tracking performance/feel for weight training and HIIT makes sense. Let's add it. (Your going to kill me.)

    Do you any endurance stuff? Biking, rowing or swimming?
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    I'm much smaller scale. I'm keto (<20 NET carbs) and just started training for a half-marathon in mid-July. I've never been a distance runner, but I've enjoyed jogging here and there in my adulthood.

    I am utilizing my Fitbit HR and basing my speed on my heart rate (it came in at 150-155 on my first jog). I run fasted in the mornings.
    I use this training guide: http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51131/Half-Marathon-Novice-1-Training-Program minus week 6 since I only have 11 weeks. :D

    If you make a group, I'll join. I'll see what I can offer.

    Ok, sounds pretty close to my intent! By the way, that is a good program, it got me to HM distances (just finished a second pass).
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?

    I hate HIIT.
    I should probably include HIIT but I don't do it. You just want me to feel miserable. I can imagine that intensity work on low carbs is gonna suck.

    Ok, I'm curious and will add it, but only a few test sessions via hill sprints. If I die, it's on you.

    Weight training is something I do inconsistently. Can probably track better for 12-16 weeks.

    I was more suggesting that in the effort to gather as much data, would you want to limit this experiment to only endurance workouts or have it be more broad. I can't do long distance running due to knee issues but I tend to do very well with HIIT and weight training. I might be interested in the experiment (since I already know my maintenance levels and I regularly track my lifts (reps/weight/sets)). Meaning, if you want to limit things to only endurance, I cannot support. If you want to see how it affects other workouts, I can participate (or at least try to) and provide some results.

    My focus on this is endurance but performance capacity sits right next to it; that's why your suggestion makes sense. The more the merrier! :wink:

    So, I agree that tracking performance/feel for weight training and HIIT makes sense. Let's add it. (Your going to kill me.)

    Do you any endurance stuff? Biking, rowing or swimming?

    Unfortunately I don't do any endurance. I have had some injuries I was fighting for some time and still working on (plantars fascititis<-- currently, sciatica <--gone, and tendinitis<-- current and preventing me from doing 5x5 programs). So most of weight training is dumbbell and I do HIIT style at home programs like insanity/P90X3. I guess at this point, you can say I follow what is being called functional fitness.
    edited May 2016
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    Would body fat percentage be a factor to track?

    Not really. I'm not doing this as a weight loss effort.

    My diet during the entire period will be slightly below maintenance and I'll try to continue to lose weight. As a fat loss protocol it would make sense to track bf% but I don't see an interesting end point comparison as I'll lose little bf during the 4wk period (maybe 1%?) and I won't be able to have a reasonable comparison with n=1. Particularly since FFM weight loss with these diets requires some expensive tools to measure since the induction period results in water weight loss.

    And @yarwell, I don't have access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig. That would be cool. Anyone got an extra $28K sitting about?
  • msf74msf74 Posts: 3,501Member Member Posts: 3,501Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.

    Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.

    Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"

    Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?

    I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.

    If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.

    I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).


    @EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?

    I hate HIIT.
    I should probably include HIIT but I don't do it. You just want me to feel miserable. I can imagine that intensity work on low carbs is gonna suck.

    Ok, I'm curious and will add it, but only a few test sessions via hill sprints. If I die, it's on you.

    Weight training is something I do inconsistently. Can probably track better for 12-16 weeks.

    Dude, you are going to die...

    Alternatively, why don't you just include some surges in your usual runs and see how you cope with them on the differing diets?

    IIRC the main issue with LC is that higher intensity efforts / sprinting ability is "constrained" but in the context of distance races perhaps this can be offset by greater sub maximal improvements? I would say this would be a non starter in terms of cycling (due to the inability to keep up and benefit from reduced wind resistance by being in the bunch) but in terms of running it would be interesting as it could still lead to an overall quicker time.
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    Would body fat percentage be a factor to track?

    Not really. I'm not doing this as a weight loss effort.

    My diet during the entire period will be slightly below maintenance and I'll try to continue to lose weight. As a fat loss protocol it would make sense to track bf% but I don't see an interesting end point comparison as I'll lose little bf during the 4wk period (maybe 1%?) and I won't be able to have a reasonable comparison with n=1. Particularly since FFM weight loss with these diets requires some expensive tools to measure since the induction period results in water weight loss.

    And @yarwell, I don't have access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig. That would be cool. Anyone got an extra $28K sitting about?
    I was thinking more along the lines of body fat percentage being a factor in terms of energy potential. Is it possible that someone with more fat would have better energy levels for endurance LCHF exercise vs someone with a lesser percentage? It's just something I have been curious about. I would hypothesize that it would matter, but probably only when you start getting into the lower ends of the body fat percentage spectrums.

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