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Want to help design a relative LCHF experiment for Endurance?
EvgeniZyntx
Posts: 24,208 Member
I've been reading some of the threads here and recently finished Natural Born Heroes and article like these...
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s%20World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
where the argument of such people like Timothy Noakes is that adjusting diet to Low Carb High Fat may lead to performance improvements.
I'm willing to run a little experiment at 50-80g carbs (and maybe others want to join in) and as inconclusive as n=1 experiments may be, it really is all that matters in the end: what works for me?
Hence, my question to the people in this forum. How would we design a nice little experiment to evaluate beyond weight loss and also include exercise performance.
As I see it, I should have at least a 4 week baseline period. Logging food, workouts, mood, sleep, weight. Blood work?
Then say a 12-16 week "LCHF" period? Followed by a "re-carb" intro period?
There is no way I see myself living a life without croissants, pasta or bread. Heck, honestly I'm not even yet sure I'm going to do this.
But here is an opportunity to influence or participate in a test.
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner?cid=soc_runnersworld_TWITTER_Runner’s%20World__Nutrition_MarathonTraining
where the argument of such people like Timothy Noakes is that adjusting diet to Low Carb High Fat may lead to performance improvements.
I'm willing to run a little experiment at 50-80g carbs (and maybe others want to join in) and as inconclusive as n=1 experiments may be, it really is all that matters in the end: what works for me?
Hence, my question to the people in this forum. How would we design a nice little experiment to evaluate beyond weight loss and also include exercise performance.
As I see it, I should have at least a 4 week baseline period. Logging food, workouts, mood, sleep, weight. Blood work?
Then say a 12-16 week "LCHF" period? Followed by a "re-carb" intro period?
There is no way I see myself living a life without croissants, pasta or bread. Heck, honestly I'm not even yet sure I'm going to do this.
But here is an opportunity to influence or participate in a test.5
Replies
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I'm curious about this too, but I am NOT going to run a marathon.0
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Good luck, I feel like crap without carbs especially when trying to exercise. I did keto for 2 months one time and the fatigue never did improve, but I would love the hear the results. Keep us posted.3
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »There is no way I see myself living a life without croissants, pasta or bread. Heck, honestly I'm not even yet sure I'm going to do this.
Yeah, you're on your own buddy...
That said, what would be interesting is if expected performance changes differ at all aerobically and anaerobically but where weight stays the same between the different approaches to that which is anticipated.
LCHF may force people people to work predominantly aerobically where they may have spent more time working at a pace which was too high and stagnating. This means they get a performance benefit not necessarily because of diet but a better overall approach to their training. Therefore matched workouts for length and intensity should be performed with weight being the same to see what effect the differing diet has on performance.
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Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?0
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I'm actually really interested in this and have considered doing it on my own, but I'm scared of screwing up my training. Designing the timing so you are doing similar amounts of activity and not biasing it through being more fit during one of the periods would be a trick.
I've been reading about ways to improve fat burning ability while running (basically like that Runner's World article). To do that it's recommended to incorporate some fasted running, including some fasted long runs, although it's also recommended to use other runs to practice the race day fueling plan.0 -
I'm curious about this, too, but worried about messing up my upcoming marathon training...0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
I mean are you going for overall time or comparing splits?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
I mean are you going for overall time or comparing splits?
I'd guess that average pace over time at these and higher distances and pace per weight cover it.
Do you have something else in mind?0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
I mean are you going for overall time or comparing splits?
I'd guess that average pace over time at these and higher distances and pace per weight cover it.
Do you have something else in mind?
Well, something interesting might surface from comparing splits like discovering you start a distance faster on low carb but slow down in the end or vice versa, which would result in interesting ideas that might help push your performance in the future like starting a race fasted but fueling in the middle or starting with just enough carbs to burn through half of the race and not fueling in the middle.
I don't have a clear idea, just random thoughts.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
I mean are you going for overall time or comparing splits?
I'd guess that average pace over time at these and higher distances and pace per weight cover it.
Do you have something else in mind?
Well, something interesting might surface from comparing splits like discovering you start a distance faster on low carb but slow down in the end or vice versa, which would result in interesting ideas that might help push your performance in the future like starting a race fasted but fueling in the middle or starting with just enough carbs to burn through half of the race and not fueling in the middle.
I don't have a clear idea, just random thoughts.
Random thoughts are good at this point. I'll probably take a look at that and see if something comes from it. It also makes me think that I should look at pace per HR.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
probably too short.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »
probably too short.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
Fair enough. I'll add HM distances to my testing.0 -
I've been on a LCHF diet for the last year. I've ran my first full marathon on this and last month I completed my second Ironman 70.3 on nothing more than one packet of almond butter. That's 5,000 calories I burned and 7 hours of work with about 200 calories in. I've raced with high carb prior and would have the "crash" during my races. With LCHF I feel like I could go forever. Check out the book "Primal Endurance".1
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vanishingmedic wrote: »I've been on a LCHF diet for the last year. I've ran my first full marathon on this and last month I completed my second Ironman 70.3 on nothing more than one packet of almond butter. That's 5,000 calories I burned and 7 hours of work with about 200 calories in. I've raced with high carb prior and would have the "crash" during my races. With LCHF I feel like I could go forever. Check out the book "Primal Endurance".
Thanks for input and book recommendation.
Two HI on LCHF is impressive! This is part of the number of anecdotal stories that I keep hearing that have me intrigued. Hence the experiment. Note - I'm coming from the skeptical side of things and am not sure that this will be sustainable for me (& my croissants) long term.
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There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.
Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.
Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
I mean are you going for overall time or comparing splits?
I'd guess that average pace over time at these and higher distances and pace per weight cover it.
Do you have something else in mind?
Well, something interesting might surface from comparing splits like discovering you start a distance faster on low carb but slow down in the end or vice versa, which would result in interesting ideas that might help push your performance in the future like starting a race fasted but fueling in the middle or starting with just enough carbs to burn through half of the race and not fueling in the middle.
I don't have a clear idea, just random thoughts.
This is an interesting idea. My personal trainer, who is also a runner, is into fat burning and ran his last marathon without fueling (he's not low carb, but lower/moderate carb). He ran out of gas at the end and missed his goal by 30 seconds.
Lots of the low carb runners use carbs for races -- would you (Evgeni) do so? I guess at 10 and 15K distances, no need.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »
probably too short.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Following. I was actually very curious about this, but knowing my own bad history with low carb I was waiting for some study to come out. I believe this looks about right. Your test phases look about right. How are you planning to measure your performance?
10K & 15K PRs?
Time over distance and subjective feeling.
Fair enough. I'll add HM distances to my testing.
If I do it my thought is a three part protocol -- baseline, keto, and LFHC plant based. I would use half marathons as my test.0 -
vanishingmedic wrote: »I've been on a LCHF diet for the last year. I've ran my first full marathon on this and last month I completed my second Ironman 70.3 on nothing more than one packet of almond butter. That's 5,000 calories I burned and 7 hours of work with about 200 calories in. I've raced with high carb prior and would have the "crash" during my races. With LCHF I feel like I could go forever. Check out the book "Primal Endurance".
I did a 70.3 with about 200 in (two gels--so clearly carb-based) and have done olympics with nothing, despite not being keto, so I think even regular people can burn fat fine. The question becomes intensity.0 -
There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.
Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.
Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"
Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?0 -
Tagging this experiment. I would do it, but every time I eat below 150g I feel like I wanna die. And I can't run... too many knee issues.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.
Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.
Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"
Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?
I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.
If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There should be a good period of adaptation before testing the effect of a different diet. At least 4 weeks without checking in the literature.
Do you refuel on longer runs / rides? They might be the ones to test.
Are those grams digestible carbs or what Americans call "total carbohydrates"
Do you think one month is sufficient for an experiment (total time following a diet)? Or would you recommend more (like maybe 2 months)?
I don't know. The published data shows fairly radical switches in fuelling but I haven't taken the time to see how long it takes for the relevant processes to adapt and uprate to the different environment. If the OP has access to portable respiratory gas analysis or a treadmill rig he could see if he was fat adapting - the whole concept is to be able to burn more fat in grams per minute so the simplest measure is the RQ / RER at a given intensity / speed.
If insulin levels are low there's more free fatty acids in circulation available as fuel, similarly ketosis makes available ketones as brain fuel (as well as other tissues). I don't know if studies other than Cahill's starvation experiments have tracked the availability over time or just looked after a fixed period.
I believe KH experiments would show fully adapted after the 1st week. At least, that is what he noted in his video interview, albeit, the study hasn't been posted. So a month would be more than enough to get fat adapted and track calories long enough to understand estimated TDEE (if you don't already know what it is).
@EvgeniZyntx are you just looking to do this with endurance or would you want to expand the scope a bit and include HIIT and/or weight training?0 -
Was the RQ in the video resting or running ?0
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I'm much smaller scale. I'm keto (<20 NET carbs) and just started training for a half-marathon in mid-July. I've never been a distance runner, but I've enjoyed jogging here and there in my adulthood.
I am utilizing my Fitbit HR and basing my speed on my heart rate (it came in at 150-155 on my first jog). I run fasted in the mornings.
I use this training guide: http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51131/Half-Marathon-Novice-1-Training-Program minus week 6 since I only have 11 weeks.
If you make a group, I'll join. I'll see what I can offer.0 -
Would body fat percentage be a factor to track?0
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Another huge benefit I get from the LCHF lifestyle with endurance training was I noticed I had a lot less inflammation and less recovery time between my workouts.0
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