Don't Set Yourself Up To Fail
godlikepoetyes
Posts: 442 Member
Why does everyone want to lose weight so quickly, esp. when most of us have heard how unhealthy this is? And most of us have heard that weight lost rapidly is regained even more rapidly? I consistently read posts from women who set their calories at 1,200 when they could be eating 1,800 to lose weight. Or 1,500. Or 1,600. Why?
Why bother to join MFP just to ignore the formula that, as far as I can tell, is proven to work? Is this fear? Maybe. I know I used to think I couldn’t lose weight unless I punished myself, starved myself. I used to believe that losing weight had to be hard, that if I weren’t hungry all the time nothing would ever happen. I used to think that exercise had to be difficult and unpleasant. The diet/weight loss/feel the burn/restrictive nutrition/deprivation/bad food, good food/healthy, not healthy industry has everyone so confused. It’s disheartening.
Please, if you are new to MFP, listen to those of us who have lost weight sensibly and learned valuable lessons along the way. Don’t listen to that little voice saying, Restrict! Starve! Punish! That’s a BAD Food. I should CHEAT! I know it’s TERRIBLE but I’m having a brownie!
And please don’t believe all the hype about special diets that demand you to remove one of the three basic foods—carbs, fats, proteins. If you ENJOY your low-carb or low-fat diet, then by all means go for it. If you believe you need TONS of protein, then knock yourself out. But if you know deep down that you’re only following a fad diet so you can, finally get it right, don’t fool yourself. There is no “quick” fix. There is no “magic” food. There is no magic exercise or mindset or food that will make you lose weight. There is no magic. And you know what? There doesn’t have to be any magic because there’s YOU. You. All you have to do to lose weight is follow MFP. All you have to do is EAT. And move around, if you enjoy that. Then you can eat MORE if you like.
Please stop believing that you need to starve yourself to lose. And stop thinking I MUST LOSE THIS WEIGHT NOW! I must get this off by my birthday! Or Xmas! Or my class reunion! You don’t need to starve and if you do and lose the weight super fast there's a very good chance you will fail. You will quit because you're so unhappy.
There's also a very good chance that you will quit MFP and come back three years from now having gained the weight back and trying to start over.
So don't starve yourself. Eat ALL your calories and see what happens.
Why bother to join MFP just to ignore the formula that, as far as I can tell, is proven to work? Is this fear? Maybe. I know I used to think I couldn’t lose weight unless I punished myself, starved myself. I used to believe that losing weight had to be hard, that if I weren’t hungry all the time nothing would ever happen. I used to think that exercise had to be difficult and unpleasant. The diet/weight loss/feel the burn/restrictive nutrition/deprivation/bad food, good food/healthy, not healthy industry has everyone so confused. It’s disheartening.
Please, if you are new to MFP, listen to those of us who have lost weight sensibly and learned valuable lessons along the way. Don’t listen to that little voice saying, Restrict! Starve! Punish! That’s a BAD Food. I should CHEAT! I know it’s TERRIBLE but I’m having a brownie!
And please don’t believe all the hype about special diets that demand you to remove one of the three basic foods—carbs, fats, proteins. If you ENJOY your low-carb or low-fat diet, then by all means go for it. If you believe you need TONS of protein, then knock yourself out. But if you know deep down that you’re only following a fad diet so you can, finally get it right, don’t fool yourself. There is no “quick” fix. There is no “magic” food. There is no magic exercise or mindset or food that will make you lose weight. There is no magic. And you know what? There doesn’t have to be any magic because there’s YOU. You. All you have to do to lose weight is follow MFP. All you have to do is EAT. And move around, if you enjoy that. Then you can eat MORE if you like.
Please stop believing that you need to starve yourself to lose. And stop thinking I MUST LOSE THIS WEIGHT NOW! I must get this off by my birthday! Or Xmas! Or my class reunion! You don’t need to starve and if you do and lose the weight super fast there's a very good chance you will fail. You will quit because you're so unhappy.
There's also a very good chance that you will quit MFP and come back three years from now having gained the weight back and trying to start over.
So don't starve yourself. Eat ALL your calories and see what happens.
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Replies
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I think the reason people don't want to believe that they can lose on 1700-1800 calories is because they haven't stopped to think (be honest with themselves) about how many calories they've were eating to become/stay overweight. Chances are...it was a much higher number than that!
We all learn how to weigh/log food here (or we should be), so if people would stop to calculate what a typical days/weeks eating looked like before they started cutting calories they would see the error they're making.
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Great post. We try to say this every day
But it's not entirely the users' fault that they end up with 1200 calories. The setup is quite stupid - it lets the user set their weight loss rate, and it's only natural to imagine an overweight person wanting to get his/her weight off as fast as possible. The calculation should ideally take into consideration the BMI of the person, and never allow a faster loss than is considered healthy. If that's impossible, at least put up a warning/explanation about recommended loss rate.13 -
I have mine set to drop 2Lbs a week and that is still 2220 cal a day, I can not begin to imagine only 1200 a day. Granted I am 6'4" and way, way, way above the weight I should be.5
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It is true that the setup is not perfect, but from the posts I read, so many people are on 1,200 calories a day and they say that THEY set them that way. There is no way that a 250 lb woman would be set at 1,200 a day. Obviously people are either fooling with the numbers, or they are setting a ridiculous deficient on custom goals.
And yes, MFP should suggest that people just log their calories for a week so they can see just how much they are eating, but I doubt that would work very well. But I was very honest and soon realized that it was no big thing for me to eat over 2,000 in one sitting. I did this by logging a huge meal that I ate while on MFP--I was honest and logged everything event though I didn't want to. Perhaps people cheat more on logging than they can admit to themselves. I've read so much about weight loss and people have some really wacky ideas about food.7 -
I have mine set to drop 2Lbs a week and that is still 2220 cal a day, I can not begin to imagine only 1200 a day. Granted I am 6'4" and way, way, way above the weight I should be.
Of course you can't. It's insane. Only a very petit woman would need to eat that low, or someone who has other issues that keep them from losing weight, like a friend of mine. She didn't lose until she dropped her calories and stopped eating her exercise calories. But, even so, I suspect that if she had given it time she would have lost even so.0 -
This should be stickied. Seriously. I never even picked the 2 lbs a week setting. Why would I? It said one pound was recommended!6
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I KNOW. 2 pounds a week. And lots of these women (sometimes men) have only 30, 20 pounds to lose. You just can't lose that fast without killing yourself!2
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Thank you! I reset my goal through settings, and my new calorie goal is 1480 per day (initially was 1200). So much more manageable and realistic. I feel so good about this now! I feel like this post gave me permission to let go of a much too aggressive weekly weight loss goal. Thank you OP!32
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Thank you! I reset my goal through settings, and my new calorie goal is 1480 per day (initially was 1200). So much more manageable and realistic. I feel so good about this now! I feel like this post gave me permission to let go of a much too aggressive weekly weight loss goal. Thank you OP!
Good for you! And while you're losing, don't weigh every day, at least at first. When I weigh every day I go insane. And don't play games with the scale. Weigh ONE time, the same time every week (or two weeks, or month, whatever). Don't move the scale to another place on the floor. Just weigh once and record your weight.7 -
What people dont think about is that when you lose fast like this, you lose lean muscle mass as well as fat. So they end up looking skinny fat and nothing but a smaller version of themselves.
People think the number on the scale is the holy grail. I bet if they knew that most of the bodies they idolize are people who have muscle mass.
No everyone doesn't have to be bodybuilders. But if you would just try to preserve the muscle you have, when you lose that fat you're going to look leaner, without having to lose so much to be "skinny".
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Thinking about it some more, I think that so many people just aren't knowledgeable about what they're really up against, or they are trying to outrun/outsmart the truth. The fact is that most people will regain the weight they lose and put on even more. It's very difficult to lose weight and keep it off. Our bodies, our brains work against us. There is ever-gathering science about this but nothing is clear yet. The only thing I know for sure is that fat people, like myself, are very unlucky. Now I am headed into the keeping it off phase and it is scary to think that I could slide right back where I was with no effort at all. It's so easy to gain weight. And gain. I think that I'm equal to the task, but I wish it were easier and that so much wasn't stacked against me. So really, I can understand the wild desperation of people who want to lose really fast so that it will all be over and they can get back to normal. I just wish they knew that this almost NEVER happens.4
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godlikepoetyes wrote: »Thank you! I reset my goal through settings, and my new calorie goal is 1480 per day (initially was 1200). So much more manageable and realistic. I feel so good about this now! I feel like this post gave me permission to let go of a much too aggressive weekly weight loss goal. Thank you OP!
Good for you! And while you're losing, don't weigh every day, at least at first. When I weigh every day I go insane. And don't play games with the scale. Weigh ONE time, the same time every week (or two weeks, or month, whatever). Don't move the scale to another place on the floor. Just weigh once and record your weight.
Definitely going to heed this advice--the daily weigh ins are making me crazy, as sometimes the number is the same, down, up; my mood has been attached to these fluctuations. No need for this madness! Putting the scale away, sticking to my new calorie goal with fidelity, and meeting my reasonable weekly fitness/exercise goals will all help me achieve success. My new weigh in day will be every other Saturday. I feel free! Thank you!
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My suggestion to everyone is to set weight loss at .5 pound a week. If you go under the recommended calorie goals you can lose more quickly. If you are hungry eat at the goal and be satiated. I lost 70 pounds using this theory. Some days I was under by A LOT and other days I barely came in at goal.
It's all about balance. Setting for rapid weight loss is indeed setting yourself up for failure. Slow and easy wins the game. Just ask the tortoise.8 -
Glad you found what works well for you.
I agree about 2Lbs a week. I wish there was a way MFP could be configured without it. But I don't know how that would work.
An yes, I think folks should find the approach that works for THEM. If that's lower carb, then I think they should go for it. I am part of the low carb group here and see MANY successful people. I'm not really low carb, but I love the group's energy.
Whatever adjective folks want to use to help them choose more nutrient dense foods, meh. Doesn't bother me. Cheers. I'm off to enjoy my good carb, good protein, good fat breakfast.
(being slightly facetious here)
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godlikepoetyes wrote: »Thank you! I reset my goal through settings, and my new calorie goal is 1480 per day (initially was 1200). So much more manageable and realistic. I feel so good about this now! I feel like this post gave me permission to let go of a much too aggressive weekly weight loss goal. Thank you OP!
Good for you! And while you're losing, don't weigh every day, at least at first. When I weigh every day I go insane. And don't play games with the scale. Weigh ONE time, the same time every week (or two weeks, or month, whatever). Don't move the scale to another place on the floor. Just weigh once and record your weight.
Definitely going to heed this advice--the daily weigh ins are making me crazy, as sometimes the number is the same, down, up; my mood has been attached to these fluctuations. No need for this madness! Putting the scale away, sticking to my new calorie goal with fidelity, and meeting my reasonable weekly fitness/exercise goals will all help me achieve success. My new weigh in day will be every other Saturday. I feel free! Thank you!
Good post, OP. I almost wish MFP wouldn't even provide the option of 2 pounds/wk as it seems so many who choose that shouldn't be.
I disagree, however, with the blanket advice about not weighing every day. That's a very individual thing. Some people can't handle the fluctuations, while others like all the data.
The thing I don't like about weighing weekly is that a person might be weighing on a high day and think they're not losing. For instance, a couple weeks ago I bounced up to 170 one day, which was water weight. I weigh daily. The days following that weigh-in the scale went down, but the same day a week later I weighed 170 again. My last weigh-in (yesterday) was 164.5. It has been 164.5 for five days. I track my weight on trendweight.com. Trend weight shows my trend weight as 166.1. Anyway, had I only weighed once a week, it would have looked as though I didn't lose anything. Now, that wouldn't bother me, because I recognize weight loss isn't linear and that a once-a-week weigh-in may catch me on a high day. But for people who don't understand that, it can be discouraging. Then we get the posts about how they haven't lost in a week or two or three. Come to find out, they're weighing once a week, and also don't understand about weight fluctuations.
Once a week can be fine so long as the person recognizes they also need to look at the trend, but it takes a lot more time to gather enough information for a decent picture than if you weigh daily. I don't think new people should be told to weigh once a week or daily, but be given the benefits of each so they can choose what they think will work for them.9 -
Mines set to 1200 even though i weigh 215, Because i have PCOS so my base metabolism is lower to begin with. I dont find it "killing myself" Yes admittedly it would be nice sometimes to eat more, So i do eat up to 1500 sometimes. I guess sticking to it 100% ALL the time would kind of suck XD5
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I think a lot of us are afraid of losing steam. I know it may not seem like a lot, but even at a rate of 8 pounds a month feels like a snail's pace. I am motivated by seeing changes.
I know that I have to slow down now, but I am terrified of losing momentum when I stop seeing any incremental changes (and I know you'll say you can but this is already torture for me).
I think the difficulty for me is that I am 5'2, I eat way more than 1200 calories but my net is probably at 1200 because I exercise a lot and eyeball, so I am totally satisfied. The weight is coming off at 1.5 (it started at 2) pounds a week, I feel healthier and happier than I have in years.
Do I really HAVE to go against what everything in my body is telling me is right?6 -
Just a few comments from my own personal experience ... might not be your experience at all, but it is mine ...
1) I did log prior to starting my diet. Turns out I was eating a little over 2000 calories a day, and ever-so-slowly gaining weight. Weight gain doesn't necessarily come from eating massive amounts of calories. I did the math ...
It took me 4 years to gain 15 kg.
Using the calculation of 1 lb = 3500 calories
15 kg = 33 lb
33*3500 = 115500 calories ... extra calories
115500/4 years = 28875 extra calories per year
28875/365 days = 79 calories per day
So ... over those 4 years, I averaged 79 extra calories per day. That's not much. That's like an egg. 3/4 of a banana. A Ryvita cracker with a bit of margarine on it. A few tablespoons of cottage cheese.
2) Recently I used MFP to set myself at maintenance. MFP gave me 1500 calories a day. That's it. That's maintenance for me. Fortunately I exercise every day so I can add an extra 300+ calories a day to that.
3) Just as an experiment, I set myself to lose 0.25 kg/day ... that's like 0.5 lbs/day. Guess how many calories MFP gave me? .... Yep ... 1200 calories. Well, because 1200 calories is really just too low for me, I manually up my calories to 1350. I find that more manageable, and I am losing the last little bit of my weight very slowly.
4) For me personally, I had to lose the weight relatively quickly in the beginning or I would have lost motivation. That's just me. I had to see results. I set myself at 0.5 kg (approx. 1 lb) per week and MFP gave me 1250 cal ... and then within a few weeks dropped me to 1200. I upped it to 1250 again manually. Plus exercise calories, of course. I lost 15 kg in 16 weeks.
After reaching that first goal I upped my calories to 1350 until I hit my second goal (another 11 kg lost in another 16 weeks). Then I went onto maintenance (1500) for a while, and now I'm back on 1350 again to see if I can lose a couple more kg.
I actually find 1350 cal + exercise calories to be quite filling. Sure, every once in a while I think it might be nice to consume a large cake, but I don't need to and I'm not going to.
5) And because I do exercise every day, I've not only lost the weight, I'm also quite muscular and fit. I've been cycling long distances, climbing mountains, and all sorts. For me exercise is very enjoyable and always has been. I've been active since I was born.
6) I am a "weigh everyday" person. I like watching the fluctuations ... they're interesting. It's fascinating to see how what I eat and the exercise I do affects my weight.
Now I do agree with you about "bad" foods. I eat whatever I want to eat as long as it fits within my calorie limit. Tonight, for example, I had nutella and leatherwood honey on toast as a late evening snack. That's one of my favourites! I made a decision when I started this that the only food I was going to eat was food I like. Yes, I had to do some experimentation to find out what foods worked for me and what didn't. Some things just don't have the staying power I want. That took the first 3 weeks or so to figure out. And I spent some time exploring grocery stores and markets to find out exactly what was available to me. That opened up all sorts of delicious options.
And I don't cheat. There's no need. Either I'm on the diet and eating delicious food within my calorie limit ... or I'm taking a planned diet break and not counting calories but usually exercising more than usual.
I'll just add something else that I, personally, find helpful, and that's not focusing on food. I have a pretty good idea what I'm going to eat everyday (pre-log!), and so I can set that aside and eat what I plan to eat at my designated times without worrying about it or thinking about it. And then I focus on exercise, work, and university. I get busy doing other stuff.
Anyway, like I said at the beginning ... that's what has worked for me. 18 -
I blame shows like The Biggest Loser. People think, "If they can lose 10 pounds per week, I should be able to lose 2."
Also, I often see a mindset in women that they should suffer during dieting to atone for the 'gluttony' that led them to be overweight.12 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I blame shows like The Biggest Loser. People think, "If they can lose 10 pounds per week, I should be able to lose 2."
Also, I often see a mindset in women that they should suffer during dieting to atone for the 'gluttony' that led them to be overweight.
Agree. Very few people realize that these morbidly obese people are working out 7-8 hours a day and eat like, 500 cals. If you're morbidly obese you have a lot of fat reserves so that's not a huge issue short term Dr. Now does it on My 600 Lb Life, but exercising that much is. Plus they promote unhealthy ways like dehydrating before a weigh in and whatnot. Not to mention a lot of contestants gain the weight back because what they learn isn't sustainable long term.1 -
For some of us, 2 lbs/week is the appropriate choice, at least starting out. My BMI is over 40. I have lost 27 lbs since September (including holiday gains and re-losing and then maintaining for a while). I have 95 lbs left to lose just to get to a BMI of 24.9. I eat 1200-2400 calories per day depending on activity and hunger, but usually I'm between 1500-1800. I've lost 16 lbs in the past 8 weeks.9
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eveandqsmom wrote: »I think a lot of us are afraid of losing steam. I know it may not seem like a lot, but even at a rate of 8 pounds a month feels like a snail's pace. I am motivated by seeing changes.
I know that I have to slow down now, but I am terrified of losing momentum when I stop seeing any incremental changes (and I know you'll say you can but this is already torture for me).
I think the difficulty for me is that I am 5'2, I eat way more than 1200 calories but my net is probably at 1200 because I exercise a lot and eyeball, so I am totally satisfied. The weight is coming off at 1.5 (it started at 2) pounds a week, I feel healthier and happier than I have in years.
Do I really HAVE to go against what everything in my body is telling me is right?
I certainly don't think you should go against what you're body is telling you! If you are happy at a low calorie allowance, then that's awesome.
I wrote this post in response to what I read so often--"Why can't I lose weight? I'm eating 1,200 calories a day and I work out 5 hours a day why can't I lose weight?"2 -
godlikepoetyes wrote: »Why does everyone want to lose weight so quickly, esp. when most of us have heard how unhealthy this is? And most of us have heard that weight lost rapidly is regained even more rapidly? I consistently read posts from women who set their calories at 1,200 when they could be eating 1,800 to lose weight. Or 1,500. Or 1,600. Why?
Why bother to join MFP just to ignore the formula that, as far as I can tell, is proven to work? Is this fear? Maybe. I know I used to think I couldn’t lose weight unless I punished myself, starved myself. I used to believe that losing weight had to be hard, that if I weren’t hungry all the time nothing would ever happen. I used to think that exercise had to be difficult and unpleasant. The diet/weight loss/feel the burn/restrictive nutrition/deprivation/bad food, good food/healthy, not healthy industry has everyone so confused. It’s disheartening.
Please, if you are new to MFP, listen to those of us who have lost weight sensibly and learned valuable lessons along the way. Don’t listen to that little voice saying, Restrict! Starve! Punish! That’s a BAD Food. I should CHEAT! I know it’s TERRIBLE but I’m having a brownie!
And please don’t believe all the hype about special diets that demand you to remove one of the three basic foods—carbs, fats, proteins. If you ENJOY your low-carb or low-fat diet, then by all means go for it. If you believe you need TONS of protein, then knock yourself out. But if you know deep down that you’re only following a fad diet so you can, finally get it right, don’t fool yourself. There is no “quick” fix. There is no “magic” food. There is no magic exercise or mindset or food that will make you lose weight. There is no magic. And you know what? There doesn’t have to be any magic because there’s YOU. You. All you have to do to lose weight is follow MFP. All you have to do is EAT. And move around, if you enjoy that. Then you can eat MORE if you like.
Please stop believing that you need to starve yourself to lose. And stop thinking I MUST LOSE THIS WEIGHT NOW! I must get this off by my birthday! Or Xmas! Or my class reunion! You don’t need to starve and if you do and lose the weight super fast there's a very good chance you will fail. You will quit because you're so unhappy.
There's also a very good chance that you will quit MFP and come back three years from now having gained the weight back and trying to start over.
So don't starve yourself. Eat ALL your calories and see what happens.
You......
I like.
Well said!0 -
If you are able to weigh every day and that number on the scale does not determine your mood, then more power to you. The number on the scale determines my mood. Even weighing once a week can be difficult for me. I wish this were not the case, but it is. My hope is to eventually stop weighing altogether. This seems like an impossibility to me, but my counselor assures me it can be done.5
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For some of us, 2 lbs/week is the appropriate choice, at least starting out. My BMI is over 40. I have lost 27 lbs since September (including holiday gains and re-losing and then maintaining for a while). I have 95 lbs left to lose just to get to a BMI of 24.9. I eat 1200-2400 calories per day depending on activity and hunger, but usually I'm between 1500-1800. I've lost 16 lbs in the past 8 weeks.
Sara, 2 pounds week is appropriate for anyone who has a lot to lose because the risks of staying overweight usually outweigh the risk of losing weight quickly. However, there are people who balk about not losing weight quick enough when they are around a normal weight and have maybe five or ten pounds to lose. 4 -
I'm not a huge fan of this article's message (too simplistic, ungrounded) but it is worth reading--
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html?version=meter+at+0&module=meter-Links&pgtype=article&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/?action=click&contentCollection=Health®ion=TopBar&WT.nav=searchWidget&module=SearchSubmit&pgtype=Blogs&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
Then read this--
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/05/doomed-to-be-the-biggest-losers/482094/0 -
I am amazed daily that my maintenence calories at my current weight are nearly 2000 even if I'm entirely sedentary. I used to be 90+ pounds heavier, and I thought (without tracking) that I "only ate 1500-1600 calories a day" of course when mfp told me I could lose on 2000/day at that time I didn't believe it. It's probably just a well I didn't because it took months to get the habit of completely accurate logging down.3
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Very well said, Godlikepoetyes (loving the name).
When I first started losing weight, I made a big mistake : I made it a race. I circled a date on the calendar and said "On this day, I will be thin and healthy". It's alright to make a specific goal like this but for me, it was a weakness.
I started starving myself, skipping meals, etc. It worked out great in the first few weeks! However, all the advice I've seen here and on other websites was that it wasn't okay to do that and that I can lose weight and still eat like a normal human being.
They told me that this diet was unsustainable, that I will give up in a few days like everyone else who tries to do this, and that I will gain the weight back. But I thought I was different, and that I could sustain the diet while avoiding the consequences of undereating.
Luckily, I didn't keep doing this for a long time (It lasted 3 weeks before I went back to binge eating again, hehe...). Finally, I made peace with the fact that I can't lose 40 kg in a few months.
And now, to all of those who are thinking about doing the same mistake, I want to tell you to stop rushing yourself.
You can lose weight and still eat that brownie.7 -
I've been eating around 1200-1300 calories a day now for the last 5 weeks. I haven't once gone to bed hungry or woke up starving. I eat what I want, when I want and I'm not punishing myself or starving myself, I'm not miserable, in fact I'm happier I've been in a long time. Also if you look at my diary I'm getting plenty of nutrition too.
While I'm definitely not disagreeing with you entirely, losing 2lb a week can be a healthy amount to lose. I had a check up with my doctor and he said everything's great, I'm not losing too quickly and I should keep doing what I'm doing.
Obviously if you want to eat more and lose at a slower pace that's entirely up to each person, but so is eating a little less and losing a little quicker.9 -
I've been eating around 1200-1300 calories a day now for the last 5 weeks. I haven't once gone to bed hungry or woke up starving. I eat what I want, when I want and I'm not punishing myself or starving myself, I'm not miserable, in fact I'm happier I've been in a long time. Also if you look at my diary I'm getting plenty of nutrition too.
While I'm definitely not disagreeing with you entirely, losing 2lb a week can be a healthy amount to lose. I had a check up with my doctor and he said everything's great, I'm not losing too quickly and I should keep doing what I'm doing.
Obviously if you want to eat more and lose at a slower pace that's entirely up to each person, but so is eating a little less and losing a little quicker.
Yes! If you are happy, losing weight, and feel confident you can maintain what you're doing, then good for you! But, again, I wrote this post in response to people who eat 1200 calories and fail, or are miserable, or depressed, or can't lose weight doing what they're doing.2
This discussion has been closed.
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