Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

afraid of animal fats and cholesterol?

Crisseyda
Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
Do you still think eating butter will give you heart disease?

Check out Dr. Maryanne Demasi's documentary. Lots of great information here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGIGXfIDaJo#action=share
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY4eTGMe-EY#action=share
«13456711

Replies

  • MelaniaTrump
    MelaniaTrump Posts: 2,694 Member
    edited May 2016
    Disappointed numbers were not given.
    No site seems to give numbers.
    Only 1 site told me:
    I ate more saturated fats and my LDL went up.
    I ate an avocado for breakfast. So I am not afraid.
    I want info on limits - no one is offering this.
    I want studies, results, cholesterol numbers, heart disease risks.
    Maybe taking a vegetarian and seeing if eating 40+ grams of sat fat a day makes him healthier.
    Real numbers. Data.

    By now, everyone should know cholesterol in eggs is ok.
  • perkymommy
    perkymommy Posts: 1,642 Member
    I've always preferred butter over margarine any day of the week. I cringe when I eat out and all that is available is margarine. Want to hurt yourself then eat that fake crap.
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    edited May 2016
    Disappointed numbers were not given.
    No site seems to give numbers.
    Only 1 site told me:
    I ate more saturated fats and my LDL went up.
    I ate an avocado for breakfast. So I am not afraid.
    I want info on limits - no one is offering this.
    I want studies, results, cholesterol numbers, heart disease risks.
    Maybe taking a vegetarian and seeing if eating 40+ grams of sat fat a day makes him healthier.
    Real numbers. Data.

    By now, everyone should know cholesterol in eggs is ok.

    There are no numbers when it comes to diet. Enjoy cholesterol rich foods :)

    To quote the newest USDA 2015 dietary Guidelines:

    Previously, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommended that cholesterol intake be limited to no more than 300 mg/day. The 2015 DGAC will not bring forward this recommendation because available evidence shows no appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol, consistent with the conclusions of the AHA/ACC report.2 35 Cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern for overconsumption.

    source: http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/06-chapter-1/d1-2.asp

    Even mainstream USDA and AHA organizations are finally coming along! Yet, somehow this hasn't made enough headlines to counter years of misinformation.

    On a side note, if you are worried about heart disease, avoid things that cause inflammation: lack of sleep, stress, smoking, sugar and refined carbohydrates (insulin resistance the greatest risk factor), and excess omega 6 fatty acids and trans fats (found in all the refined, processed fats like margarine and soybean oil... not nature).
  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,575 Member
    I guess I'm lucky that I don't like most animal fats so I don't really have to worry much about this. Most animals I eat are lean or higher in unsaturated fats.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.
  • paulgads82
    paulgads82 Posts: 256 Member
    I should get my levels checked. They were a little high when I was obese so it would be interesting to see the change. I still eat animal fat, Obvs.
  • robininfl
    robininfl Posts: 1,137 Member
    Eating healthy fats helped my cholesterol profile, I have always eaten eggs and butter, never margarine or just egg whites, and cheese and milk with fat, mayonnaise, olives, olive oil; adding a focus on nuts, salmon, avocado pushed up the good cholesterol so it's fine now. Blood pressure kinda high at work even though I am thin, eat well, work out, etc, that's stress and genetics.

    I have never eaten a low fat diet, save for when i was eating disordered. Have never considered it healthy, anyway. Every time I look at a low-fat version of something fat, they have replaced the fat with sugar, that just does not seem healthy at all. I do like de-fatted greek yogurt, it's pretty good, but that's just yogurt made with skim milk. If we make it at home we use whole milk, that's even better, but I don't think skim milk products, without added sugars, are unhealthy within the context of a good diet.

    I do not think that eating a whole bunch of steak n cheese would help one's cholesterol though, eating balanced fats makes more sense.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Good videos. :)

    Statins are pretty useless unless you are a middle aged male who has heart disease. Cholesterol as a measure of heart disease is pretty uselss for most too. We really went in the wrong direction for a long time...

    I used to follow a low fat diet. I wouldn'even butter my toast. Leanest cuts of meat I could find. skipped many egg yolks... Psht. I completely bought into the food pyramid and cholesterol is evil and will clog up your arteries... Bunch of bunk.

    I now eat high fat, with a focus on saturated fats and monounsaturated fats. I feel better, I look better, and my weight is better.
  • Crisseyda
    Crisseyda Posts: 532 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.

    You see, one of the main points in the documentary is that "numbers" are a very poor predictor when it comes to cardiac disease and vary greatly by age and gender--very high cholesterol, for example, is protective in old age. They don't correlate well because extra cholesterol in the blood is not the cause of heart disease. It's the inflammation that brings the extra cholesterol into the artery walls and creates plaques. Focus is placed on the numbers because medical intervention exists to target them: statins (be they harmful, effective, or not, they do "something" and generate revenue). But really focus should be on addressing inflammation--like proper oral hygiene, stress reduction, avoidance of refined fats and refined carbohydrates. In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first (by keeping your insulin levels low). If you know anything about LDL particle size (see above documentary), your small dense particles (which are more easily oxidized, pro-inflammatory, and correlate more with cardiac disease) increase with intake of dietary refined carbohydrate--not fat and cholesterol. A nuclear lipid panel will actually break down the LDL particle size for you, and give you a better picture of your cardiac risk

    All that being said, a simple lipid panel is really almost meaningless. If you think you may have cardiac disease, and you want to know for sure, one of the most effective tests you can get is a coronary calcium scan. Here's a great presentation on the meaningfulness of this scan in terms of risk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggovoQ8JKyw&feature=youtu.be
  • pfreeme
    pfreeme Posts: 42 Member
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
    But I'm not much interested in all this eat-butter-and-lard-it-won't-kill-you stuff, unless someone can prove that serum cholesterol readings are irrelevant for heart disease risk.

    Can't prove a negative, but don't see the evidence that the lab numbers you refer to are strong drivers of heart disease risk, the risk calculators use ratios like Total/HDL and Triglycerides/HDL rather than headline numbers don't they ?

    The cholesterol number of patients presenting with heart disease are interesting.

    Several systematic reviews and the like over the last 6+ years have said saturated fat is not a problem in itself and substituting it with some things (eg high GI carbohydrate) can make things worse. Replacing sat fat with monounsaturated fat may be helpful, but that isn't the prevailing conventional wisdom of reducing fat.

  • Gianfranco_R
    Gianfranco_R Posts: 1,297 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.

    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first (by keeping your insulin levels low).

    Well, apparently saturated fat does in fact increase insulin resistance.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-fat-raises-blood-sugar/

    And as several people have said, decreasing saturated fat also lowered my cholesterol (from 278 to 168) by cutting way back on animal fats and overall fats to under 15%. No reason to roll the dice and listen to high fat paleo dogma and risk one's health by ignoring current guidelines about saturated fat and heart disease. I like to have normal lab results and now I do after lowering dietary fat.

    I wouldn't be too sure:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938439
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.

    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first (by keeping your insulin levels low).

    Well, apparently saturated fat does in fact increase insulin resistance.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-fat-raises-blood-sugar/

    And as several people have said, decreasing saturated fat also lowered my cholesterol (from 278 to 168) by cutting way back on animal fats and overall fats to under 15%. No reason to roll the dice and listen to high fat paleo dogma and risk one's health by ignoring current guidelines about saturated fat and heart disease. I like to have normal lab results and now I do after lowering dietary fat.

    I wouldn't be too sure:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938439

    http://foris.fao.org/preview/25553-0ece4cb94ac52f9a25af77ca5cfba7a8c.pdf

    de7a259851966aefc3e8d52822520149.png
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    yarwell wrote: »
    But I'm not much interested in all this eat-butter-and-lard-it-won't-kill-you stuff, unless someone can prove that serum cholesterol readings are irrelevant for heart disease risk.

    Can't prove a negative, but don't see the evidence that the lab numbers you refer to are strong drivers of heart disease risk, the risk calculators use ratios like Total/HDL and Triglycerides/HDL rather than headline numbers don't they ?

    The cholesterol number of patients presenting with heart disease are interesting.

    Several systematic reviews and the like over the last 6+ years have said saturated fat is not a problem in itself and substituting it with some things (eg high GI carbohydrate) can make things worse. Replacing sat fat with monounsaturated fat may be helpful, but that isn't the prevailing conventional wisdom of reducing fat.

    Yes it is:

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/fats-and-cholesterol/
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.
  • robininfl
    robininfl Posts: 1,137 Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.

    Ah - Monounsaturated is what I am thinking of. Nuts, avocado, the fat on fatty fish. Things that are solid at room temperature, though. I mean that getting all your oil from liquid vegetable oils seems less than healthy. Sorry!
  • FunkyTobias
    FunkyTobias Posts: 1,776 Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.

    Ah - Monounsaturated is what I am thinking of. Nuts, avocado, the fat on fatty fish. Things that are solid at room temperature, though. I mean that getting all your oil from liquid vegetable oils seems less than healthy. Sorry!

    The only essential fats are polyunsaturated.
  • tlflag1620
    tlflag1620 Posts: 1,358 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.

    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first (by keeping your insulin levels low).

    Well, apparently saturated fat does in fact increase insulin resistance.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-fat-raises-blood-sugar/

    And as several people have said, decreasing saturated fat also lowered my cholesterol (from 278 to 168) by cutting way back on animal fats and overall fats to under 15%. No reason to roll the dice and listen to high fat paleo dogma and risk one's health by ignoring current guidelines about saturated fat and heart disease. I like to have normal lab results and now I do after lowering dietary fat.

    Animal fats cause insulin resistance?? Smh. This nutritionfacts.org video is by Dr. Micheal Greger. This mans pushes veganism and the pritikin diet (extremely low fat). He's pushing junk science, IMO. Saturated fat intake causes inflammation since it's breakdown creates mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress, free radicals, and inflammation free radical and ceramide production? Really? He links a study which focused on palmitate... uh oh, that's a major component of breast milk. I guess we better get those babies off mommy's milk so they don't get metabolic syndrome! (Oh wait, doctors already did that once before... didn't work out so well).

    He says an accumulation of saturated fat in the muscles causes an increase in daicyl-gylcerol in the muscles, which has been demonstrated to have a potent effect on muscle insulin resistance. He's talking about correlating saturated fat in the muscles with insulin resistance. What he doesn't say is that saturated fat in the muscles and saturated fat in the diet are two completely different things. Excess carbohydrates in the diet turn straight into saturated fat in the body through de novo lipogenesis. If you wanna decrease the saturated fat in your muscles, decreases the excess carbs in your diet... or you can take the calorie restricted approach *shrug* either way, decreasing your saturated fat intake will have no effect.

    One of the his cited studies lumps saturated fat with trans fats--as if there were anywhere near the same thing! I just can't even, LOL.

    Here's a well-known randomized trail where there were no restrictions on saturated fat intake. Guess what!?!? People with highest intake had improved insulin resistance

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=205916#REF-JOC70018-12

    Many concerns have been expressed that low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets, high in total and saturated fat, will adversely affect blood lipid levels and cardiovascular risk.34- 36 These concerns have not been substantiated in recent weight-loss diet trials. The recent trials, like the current study, have consistently reported that triglycerides, HDL-C, blood pressure, and measures of insulin resistance either were not significantly different or were more favorable for the very-low-carbohydrate groups.12- 16

    You.... You I like!

  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    edited May 2016
    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first ...

    So people should exercise more, as exercise improves the body's sensitivity to insulin.