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afraid of animal fats and cholesterol?

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  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    yarwell wrote: »
    But I'm not much interested in all this eat-butter-and-lard-it-won't-kill-you stuff, unless someone can prove that serum cholesterol readings are irrelevant for heart disease risk.

    Can't prove a negative, but don't see the evidence that the lab numbers you refer to are strong drivers of heart disease risk, the risk calculators use ratios like Total/HDL and Triglycerides/HDL rather than headline numbers don't they ?

    The cholesterol number of patients presenting with heart disease are interesting.

    Several systematic reviews and the like over the last 6+ years have said saturated fat is not a problem in itself and substituting it with some things (eg high GI carbohydrate) can make things worse. Replacing sat fat with monounsaturated fat may be helpful, but that isn't the prevailing conventional wisdom of reducing fat.

    Yes it is:

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/fats-and-cholesterol/
  • stevencloserstevencloser Posts: 8,917Member Member Posts: 8,917Member Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.
  • robininflrobininfl Posts: 1,144Member Member Posts: 1,144Member Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.

    Ah - Monounsaturated is what I am thinking of. Nuts, avocado, the fat on fatty fish. Things that are solid at room temperature, though. I mean that getting all your oil from liquid vegetable oils seems less than healthy. Sorry!
  • FunkyTobiasFunkyTobias Posts: 1,776Member Member Posts: 1,776Member Member
    robininfl wrote: »
    robininfl wrote: »
    pfreeme wrote: »
    Anything greasy like butter margarine animal fat has always grossed me out. Let fat congeal in a pan its gross dont even like the idea of it in my body. In my mind its the opposite of clean eating.Intuitively I feel it is not healthy for MY body. Ive been vegan for awhile Im curious what my #s are. When I last had them done 10 years ago it was high 205 but it was unckear how much was Good/bad cholesterol? The old adage everything in moderation fits..

    You do still need saturated fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut. If all your fat is coming from refined vegetable oil, or if you aren't getting enough fat overall, that's not healthy.

    Off topic but I hate the idea of clean vs dirty when it comes to eating. We are embodied, on a world covered with dirt. Vegetables are grown in dirt. We are physical, carbon based living beings. Eating to nourish your body is good, eating enough fiber keeps everything moving, but your insides should not be clean. We are crawling with microorganisms that keep us alive. If you were clean you would be dead.

    All essential fatty acids your body needs are unsaturated.

    Ah - Monounsaturated is what I am thinking of. Nuts, avocado, the fat on fatty fish. Things that are solid at room temperature, though. I mean that getting all your oil from liquid vegetable oils seems less than healthy. Sorry!

    The only essential fats are polyunsaturated.
  • tlflag1620tlflag1620 Posts: 1,358Member Member Posts: 1,358Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    My dad improved his cholesterol numbers by cutting way back on sat fat. So far it doesn't seem to matter for me, but I pay attention for that reason.

    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first (by keeping your insulin levels low).

    Well, apparently saturated fat does in fact increase insulin resistance.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-fat-raises-blood-sugar/

    And as several people have said, decreasing saturated fat also lowered my cholesterol (from 278 to 168) by cutting way back on animal fats and overall fats to under 15%. No reason to roll the dice and listen to high fat paleo dogma and risk one's health by ignoring current guidelines about saturated fat and heart disease. I like to have normal lab results and now I do after lowering dietary fat.

    Animal fats cause insulin resistance?? Smh. This nutritionfacts.org video is by Dr. Micheal Greger. This mans pushes veganism and the pritikin diet (extremely low fat). He's pushing junk science, IMO. Saturated fat intake causes inflammation since it's breakdown creates mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress, free radicals, and inflammation free radical and ceramide production? Really? He links a study which focused on palmitate... uh oh, that's a major component of breast milk. I guess we better get those babies off mommy's milk so they don't get metabolic syndrome! (Oh wait, doctors already did that once before... didn't work out so well).

    He says an accumulation of saturated fat in the muscles causes an increase in daicyl-gylcerol in the muscles, which has been demonstrated to have a potent effect on muscle insulin resistance. He's talking about correlating saturated fat in the muscles with insulin resistance. What he doesn't say is that saturated fat in the muscles and saturated fat in the diet are two completely different things. Excess carbohydrates in the diet turn straight into saturated fat in the body through de novo lipogenesis. If you wanna decrease the saturated fat in your muscles, decreases the excess carbs in your diet... or you can take the calorie restricted approach *shrug* either way, decreasing your saturated fat intake will have no effect.

    One of the his cited studies lumps saturated fat with trans fats--as if there were anywhere near the same thing! I just can't even, LOL.

    Here's a well-known randomized trail where there were no restrictions on saturated fat intake. Guess what!?!? People with highest intake had improved insulin resistance

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=205916#REF-JOC70018-12

    Many concerns have been expressed that low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets, high in total and saturated fat, will adversely affect blood lipid levels and cardiovascular risk.34- 36 These concerns have not been substantiated in recent weight-loss diet trials. The recent trials, like the current study, have consistently reported that triglycerides, HDL-C, blood pressure, and measures of insulin resistance either were not significantly different or were more favorable for the very-low-carbohydrate groups.12- 16

    You.... You I like!

  • NorthCascadesNorthCascades Posts: 9,535Member Member Posts: 9,535Member Member
    In fact, insulin resistance is actually the greatest risk factor for heart disease--so I would focus my intervention on preventing that risk factor first ...

    So people should exercise more, as exercise improves the body's sensitivity to insulin.
    edited May 2016
  • Nuke_64Nuke_64 Posts: 406Member Member Posts: 406Member Member
    To quote the newest USDA 2015 dietary Guidelines:

    Previously, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommended that cholesterol intake be limited to no more than 300 mg/day. The 2015 DGAC will not bring forward this recommendation because available evidence shows no appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol, consistent with the conclusions of the AHA/ACC report.2 35 Cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern for overconsumption.

    source: http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/06-chapter-1/d1-2.asp

    Even mainstream USDA and AHA organizations are finally coming along! Yet, somehow this hasn't made enough headlines to counter years of misinformation.

    I'm curious why they still have cholesterol on the new nutritional information labeling requirements.
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    About 20% of my body fat is saturated so I can't fear saturated fat.
  • MelissaPhippsFeaginsMelissaPhippsFeagins Posts: 8,218Member Member Posts: 8,218Member Member
    My brothers and I must be genetic anomalies. We have all had bad cholesterol levels in the past, all reduced our saturated fats and all of our numbers were worse or retesting. All numbers improved with animal fats in our diets. Two of us lift weights and now our cholesterol numbers look great. Two of are.couch potatoes and their numbers are still bad, but not as bad as without animal fats.
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    My brothers and I must be genetic anomalies. We have all had bad cholesterol levels in the past, all reduced our saturated fats and all of our numbers were worse or retesting. All numbers improved with animal fats in our diets. Two of us lift weights and now our cholesterol numbers look great. Two of are.couch potatoes and their numbers are still bad, but not as bad as without animal fats.

    Not an anomaly. That's where most current thinking is now: cholesterol levels tend to go up with a high carb diet and lower fat, and down with a higher fat and lower carb diet.... and with exercise too, of course.
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    Wow, even Mark Hyman, MD is coming around... I'm impressed! Open-mindedness for the win!

  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,692Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,692Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    My brothers and I must be genetic anomalies. We have all had bad cholesterol levels in the past, all reduced our saturated fats and all of our numbers were worse or retesting. All numbers improved with animal fats in our diets. Two of us lift weights and now our cholesterol numbers look great. Two of are.couch potatoes and their numbers are still bad, but not as bad as without animal fats.

    Not an anomaly. That's where most current thinking is now: cholesterol levels tend to go up with a high carb diet and lower fat, and down with a higher fat and lower carb diet.... and with exercise too, of course.

    I would make an argument that its more about the type of carb than carbs itself, especially considering plant based diets, even when compared to other low fat diets, have shown to see improvements.

    http://nutrition.stanford.edu/documents/Plant_based.pdf <--I am trying to find a copy of the full text.


    Even so, most of the recent low carb studies I have seen have replaced sat fats with unsaturated fats. I would be curious to see two low carb studies compared, one with limitations on sat fat and one without.
  • dopeysmellydopeysmelly Posts: 1,411Member Member Posts: 1,411Member Member
    I'd like to see studies investigating why @MelissaPhipps and I both saw the same outcome from diametrically opposite approaches. Understanding why this could be so, would be far more useful than a lot of the hot air floating around nutrition. I've no idea how such studies would be designed though..
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,692Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,692Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    Disappointed numbers were not given.
    No site seems to give numbers.
    Only 1 site told me:
    I ate more saturated fats and my LDL went up.
    I ate an avocado for breakfast. So I am not afraid.
    I want info on limits - no one is offering this.
    I want studies, results, cholesterol numbers, heart disease risks.
    Maybe taking a vegetarian and seeing if eating 40+ grams of sat fat a day makes him healthier.
    Real numbers. Data.

    By now, everyone should know cholesterol in eggs is ok.

    There are no numbers when it comes to diet. Enjoy cholesterol rich foods :)

    To quote the newest USDA 2015 dietary Guidelines:

    Previously, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommended that cholesterol intake be limited to no more than 300 mg/day. The 2015 DGAC will not bring forward this recommendation because available evidence shows no appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol, consistent with the conclusions of the AHA/ACC report.2 35 Cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern for overconsumption.

    source: http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/06-chapter-1/d1-2.asp

    Even mainstream USDA and AHA organizations are finally coming along! Yet, somehow this hasn't made enough headlines to counter years of misinformation.

    On a side note, if you are worried about heart disease, avoid things that cause inflammation: lack of sleep, stress, smoking, sugar and refined carbohydrates (insulin resistance the greatest risk factor), and excess omega 6 fatty acids and trans fats (found in all the refined, processed fats like margarine and soybean oil... not nature).

    Would like to point out, that same report suggest that we are still eating too much saturated fats and it should be limited to 10% of calories.


    "Saturated fat. The DGAC used the 2013 American Heart Association/American College of Cardiology (AHA/ACC) report on lifestyle management to reduce CVD risk2 for its evaluation of saturated fat intake. The DGAC concurred with the AHA/ACC report that saturated fat intake exceeds current recommendations in the United States and that lower levels of consumption would further reduce the population level risk of CVD. The DGAC also convened a working group on saturated fat (see Part D. Chapter 6: Cross-Cutting Topics of Public Health Importance for details). In addition, the DGAC conducted food pattern modeling to demonstrate the dietary changes that would be necessary to have diets with various levels of saturated fat as a percent of total energy (see USDA Food Patterns Modeling Report in Appendix E-3.5: Reducing Saturated Fats in the USDA Food Patterns). It is important to note that the median intake of saturated fat in the United States was 11.1 percent of total energy for all age groups in the 2007-2010 WWEIA data. However, a large majority (71 percent) of the total population consumed more than 10 percent of calories from saturated fat, with a range by age group from 57 percent to 92 percent (Figure D1.4). Further, 65 percent to 69 percent of the age groups at highest risk of CVD (males and females older than age 50 years) had intakes more than 10 percent of total calories were from saturated fat, the DGAC concluded that the U.S. population should continue to monitor saturated fat intake. Saturated fat is still a nutrient of concern for overconsumption, particularly for those older than the age of 50 years."
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    Sure, go on ignoring all official things that look at all available research and instead keep posting youtube videos and anecdotes.

    LOL, Steven, I guess by "official" you mean mainstream like the American Heart Association (which btw I did link the current USDA guidelines related to cholesterol, and I'd consider them "official," but anyway... ). Do you think mainstream/industry-sponsored groups like that keep up with the latest research? I mean if the AHA started accepting saturated fat as benign or even protective against heart disease, they'd have to stop selling their "heart-check" logo to Kellogg's, poptarts, marshmallows, jolly ranchers, processed cheese food, and whatever else crap, garbage you see it posted on. That sure would be a revenue loss.

    In the hospitals where I have worked (and work), the AHA diet is still low fat, low cholesterol, low sodium with vegetable based butter-flavored "product"... that's it. They STILL have not addressed sugar. I'm not waiting for them to catch up to real heart health science anytime soon.
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