Back to vegan, but scared
Replies
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oliviaohair wrote: »It's the best decision you could ever make, going vegan.
Not only are you treating yourself and your body with respect, you're vowing to be kind to ALL living things. It's the picture of proper stewardship over everything God has given us.
For medical reasons veganism would be very,very difficult and not nutritionally sound (I can't eat most raw and cooked veggies and fruit, nuts, legumes, seed, whole grains, etc and I'm low fiber). I guess I'm a second class citizen in you mind. Thanks for your judgement. Doesn't proper stewardship include your fellow humans?3 -
iamcallieu wrote: »Thanks all, I'm not scared to return to my previous vegan lifestyle - I'm more scared of the backlash that I know I'm going to get. The keto community can be a brutal place; but I'm definitely ready to feel good again!! I'm also ready to eat some fruit again!!
GET NEW FRIENDS!!!!! It is your body and you are an adult you make your decisions!! Good luck
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oliviaohair wrote: »It's the best decision you could ever make, going vegan. Not only are you treating yourself and your body with respect, you're vowing to be kind to ALL living things. It's the picture of proper stewardship over everything God has given us.
Your interpretation of God's opinion about our consumption of animals and my opinion differ greatly.7 -
lesleyloo7879 wrote: »iamcallieu wrote: »Thanks all, I'm not scared to return to my previous vegan lifestyle - I'm more scared of the backlash that I know I'm going to get. The keto community can be a brutal place; but I'm definitely ready to feel good again!! I'm also ready to eat some fruit again!!
GET NEW FRIENDS!!!!! It is your body and you are an adult you make your decisions!! Good luck
We don't even know if her current friends will have a problem with this.
And yet they're still being crucified for being bad friends.0 -
amorfati601070 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »amorfati601070 wrote: »Veganism is sustainable for the long run, unlike keto...Ketosis is the body's coping mechanism for STARVATION. I don't know about you but I'm not particularly fond of being in a state of starvation and having my brain deprived of glucose. We're designed to run on carbs...I could get into rant on low-carb diets but I won't.
Here are some vegan and vegan-orientated YouTube channels that may offer guidance.
www.youtube.com/user/BiteSizeVegan
www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg
Ultimately your diet is your choice and you shouldn't really care what others are thinking of it. If you enjoy the vegan lifestyle/diet and it makes you feel good about yourself (health and/or morally) then go with that, fck the haters.
Did you really just say that keto is not sustainable long term and it deprives the brain of glucose?
:huh:
Yeah, because it just a fad diet but sure..you can lose weight, a lot of it is just water. So what? It's not sustainable because it will literally kill you. Take out the carbs and fill the void with foods with laden with saturated fat and cholesterol and set your self up for chronic diseases. If you take a look at the longest living people (Okinawan), their traditional diets are like 95% plant-based with most calories coming from complex carbs like sweet potato.
I think it's (usually) unnecessary and I certainly don't follow a keto diet...but to say that it's unsustainable and will kill you ignores the reality that many have done it for decades with no ill health effects.
Also, your views on consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol may be a tad outdated. The lipid hypothesis isn't the soundest of science.
And your reference to the Okinawans ignore so many another factors besides their diet. So many.
But I'm not going to fight this battle because 1) I'll let the keto people fight their own battles, and 2) I suspect you are so attached to your position that there is zero chance of you considering a different view.2 -
Most of my MFPals are part of the keto/LCHF/Paleo community and I feel very cornered. I know they'll judge me when they see I'm returning to my vegan lifestyle. And I must admit, I'm SCARED, because of all of the info (brainwashing) about carb cycling/how bad fruit is for me/grain fear etc from this past year. I really need some support, y'alljofjltncb6 wrote: »lesleyloo7879 wrote: »iamcallieu wrote: »Thanks all, I'm not scared to return to my previous vegan lifestyle - I'm more scared of the backlash that I know I'm going to get. The keto community can be a brutal place; but I'm definitely ready to feel good again!! I'm also ready to eat some fruit again!!
GET NEW FRIENDS!!!!! It is your body and you are an adult you make your decisions!! Good luck
We don't even know if her current friends will have a problem with this.
And yet they're still being crucified for being bad friends.
That is from the OP and that is why I said get new friends..... If and IF they are going to judge her for doing what she feels is best for her then time to get new ones. This is all hypothetical of course. Who knows maybe they will be very sup portative0 -
lesleyloo7879 wrote: »Most of my MFPals are part of the keto/LCHF/Paleo community and I feel very cornered. I know they'll judge me when they see I'm returning to my vegan lifestyle. And I must admit, I'm SCARED, because of all of the info (brainwashing) about carb cycling/how bad fruit is for me/grain fear etc from this past year. I really need some support, y'alljofjltncb6 wrote: »lesleyloo7879 wrote: »iamcallieu wrote: »Thanks all, I'm not scared to return to my previous vegan lifestyle - I'm more scared of the backlash that I know I'm going to get. The keto community can be a brutal place; but I'm definitely ready to feel good again!! I'm also ready to eat some fruit again!!
GET NEW FRIENDS!!!!! It is your body and you are an adult you make your decisions!! Good luck
We don't even know if her current friends will have a problem with this.
And yet they're still being crucified for being bad friends.
That is from the OP and that is why I said get new friends..... If and IF they are going to judge her for doing what she feels is best for her then time to get new ones. This is all hypothetical of course. Who knows maybe they will be very sup portative
Nah, you're probably right. They can be a rather defensive bunch.
Maybe she should phrase it as "I'm going to run an n=1 experiment with myself and go veg*n for X months to see if I notice a difference."2 -
iamcallieu wrote: »Thanks all, I'm not scared to return to my previous vegan lifestyle - I'm more scared of the backlash that I know I'm going to get. The keto community can be a brutal place; but I'm definitely ready to feel good again!! I'm also ready to eat some fruit again!!
Sounds like a community I wouldn't want to be a part of anyway. Eat as you wish and say good riddance.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »amorfati601070 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »amorfati601070 wrote: »Veganism is sustainable for the long run, unlike keto...Ketosis is the body's coping mechanism for STARVATION. I don't know about you but I'm not particularly fond of being in a state of starvation and having my brain deprived of glucose. We're designed to run on carbs...I could get into rant on low-carb diets but I won't.
Here are some vegan and vegan-orientated YouTube channels that may offer guidance.
www.youtube.com/user/BiteSizeVegan
www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg
Ultimately your diet is your choice and you shouldn't really care what others are thinking of it. If you enjoy the vegan lifestyle/diet and it makes you feel good about yourself (health and/or morally) then go with that, fck the haters.
Did you really just say that keto is not sustainable long term and it deprives the brain of glucose?
:huh:
Yeah, because it just a fad diet but sure..you can lose weight, a lot of it is just water. So what? It's not sustainable because it will literally kill you. Take out the carbs and fill the void with foods with laden with saturated fat and cholesterol and set your self up for chronic diseases. If you take a look at the longest living people (Okinawan), their traditional diets are like 95% plant-based with most calories coming from complex carbs like sweet potato.
I think it's (usually) unnecessary and I certainly don't follow a keto diet...but to say that it's unsustainable and will kill you ignores the reality that many have done it for decades with no ill health effects.
Also, your views on consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol may be a tad outdated. The lipid hypothesis isn't the soundest of science.
And your reference to the Okinawans ignore so many another factors besides their diet. So many.
But I'm not going to fight this battle because 1) I'll let the keto people fight their own battles, and 2) I suspect you are so attached to your position that there is zero chance of you considering a different view.
Fair enough. I take issue with the low-carb diets because people go on them with good intentions based on misinformation. It's centuries of science versus the latest fad but hey, any book that tells you that you can be healthy, lose weight and eat bacon is gonna sell. Profits over health.0 -
amorfati601070 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »amorfati601070 wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »amorfati601070 wrote: »Veganism is sustainable for the long run, unlike keto...Ketosis is the body's coping mechanism for STARVATION. I don't know about you but I'm not particularly fond of being in a state of starvation and having my brain deprived of glucose. We're designed to run on carbs...I could get into rant on low-carb diets but I won't.
Here are some vegan and vegan-orientated YouTube channels that may offer guidance.
www.youtube.com/user/BiteSizeVegan
www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg
Ultimately your diet is your choice and you shouldn't really care what others are thinking of it. If you enjoy the vegan lifestyle/diet and it makes you feel good about yourself (health and/or morally) then go with that, fck the haters.
Did you really just say that keto is not sustainable long term and it deprives the brain of glucose?
:huh:
Yeah, because it just a fad diet but sure..you can lose weight, a lot of it is just water. So what? It's not sustainable because it will literally kill you. Take out the carbs and fill the void with foods with laden with saturated fat and cholesterol and set your self up for chronic diseases. If you take a look at the longest living people (Okinawan), their traditional diets are like 95% plant-based with most calories coming from complex carbs like sweet potato.
I think it's (usually) unnecessary and I certainly don't follow a keto diet...but to say that it's unsustainable and will kill you ignores the reality that many have done it for decades with no ill health effects.
Also, your views on consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol may be a tad outdated. The lipid hypothesis isn't the soundest of science.
And your reference to the Okinawans ignore so many another factors besides their diet. So many.
But I'm not going to fight this battle because 1) I'll let the keto people fight their own battles, and 2) I suspect you are so attached to your position that there is zero chance of you considering a different view.
Fair enough. I take issue with the low-carb diets because people go on them with good intentions based on misinformation. It's centuries of science versus the latest fad but hey, any book that tells you that you can be healthy, lose weight and eat bacon is gonna sell. Profits over health.
I don't need a book to tell me I can "be healthy, loose weight and eat bacon", it's fact not fad!
I do agree with you on the low carb dieters, but it appears you've also fallen victim. Carbs don't make me fat, Fat doesn't make you fat but combined with a calorie surplus you bet your *kitten* they will.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.
Are you saying that you align your ethics 100% with those who you associate with? For me at least there are varying levels of my beliefs, and there are things that I'd be willing to overlook or tolerate in people that I would not in myself. Not every belief I hold is do or die.1 -
I just sent you a request. I am 100% vegan and have been for 5 years in August. 0
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htimpaired wrote: »i am 100% here to support you! I am (mostly... lol) on a vegan diet.. and ONLY for health reasons... literally.. go a week without dairy and see how you feel haha... but not only am i vegan.. (or vegetarian? not sure..) i still eat eggs and occasionally i eat fish.. i dont eat any dairy and the only grain i eat is quinoa and the occasional rice noodle recipe.
Then you're not vegan.
Isn't vegan an ethical lifestyle rather than a "diet"?
lol thats why i kept saying not sure. i make my own eating lifestyle. if i wanna eat pizza im gonna eat pizza but i dont do it everyday.0 -
TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.
Are you saying that you align your ethics 100% with those who you associate with? For me at least there are varying levels of my beliefs, and there are things that I'd be willing to overlook or tolerate in people that I would not in myself. Not every belief I hold is do or die.
If I equated killing animals with murder then I would equate those who eat animals with serial killers. If I knew someone was a serial killer I would not associate with them.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »i am 100% here to support you! I am (mostly... lol) on a vegan diet.. and ONLY for health reasons... literally.. go a week without dairy and see how you feel haha... but not only am i vegan.. (or vegetarian? not sure..) i still eat eggs and occasionally i eat fish.. i dont eat any dairy and the only grain i eat is quinoa and the occasional rice noodle recipe.
as for the previous post ^^^ you DONT need "animal one in proper proportions"... there are soo many things out there you could be eating than gross processed meat.. you can get get it from tofu, soft tofu you can put in sauces and shakes/smoothies, firm tofu you can cook just like any animal meat.. you can also get protein from beans (white beans, black beans are the best), peas, spinach, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. .. so many choices.
you are free to view my diary any time you want.. again.. nobodys perfect so some days i miss, some days i cheat horribly haha but for the most of my days i'm eating vegetarian/vegan.
feel free to add me for support!
I think we can safely mark that open item as closed now.
You are not vegan. Or even vegetarian.
https://www.google.com/search?q=vegetarians+that+eat+fish&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&safe=active&gws_rd=ssl0 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »i am 100% here to support you! I am (mostly... lol) on a vegan diet.. and ONLY for health reasons... literally.. go a week without dairy and see how you feel haha... but not only am i vegan.. (or vegetarian? not sure..) i still eat eggs and occasionally i eat fish.. i dont eat any dairy and the only grain i eat is quinoa and the occasional rice noodle recipe.
as for the previous post ^^^ you DONT need "animal one in proper proportions"... there are soo many things out there you could be eating than gross processed meat.. you can get get it from tofu, soft tofu you can put in sauces and shakes/smoothies, firm tofu you can cook just like any animal meat.. you can also get protein from beans (white beans, black beans are the best), peas, spinach, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. .. so many choices.
you are free to view my diary any time you want.. again.. nobodys perfect so some days i miss, some days i cheat horribly haha but for the most of my days i'm eating vegetarian/vegan.
feel free to add me for support!
I think we can safely mark that open item as closed now.
You are not vegan. Or even vegetarian.
If she self-identifies as vegan why are you so hegemonic with your definitions?
Honestly, I don't think she self identified as vegan as much as she just wasn't sure what the right word for her mostly plant diet was. She literally said "not sure", so I don't think we are trying to rob her of her identity as much as clarify a word definition she wasn't sure about.
hmilly, if you are looking for a shorthand to describe your diet so people will understand what you eat without you having to explain it, your diet would be considered pescetarian
lol Yes, Thank you MakePeasNotWar. i dont know why there was such a huge debate on what i "identify" myself as.. if it doesnt directly hurt you.. which it doesnt hurt anyone lol then why even have a long conversation about it. IT DOESNT MATTER lol. I'm just here to eat healthy, lose weight, keep it off and keep receiving positive motivation from my MFP friends. Thanks all for the concern and for those who backed me up xoxo 0 -
Why put any label on it? Just eat the food you want to eat when you want to eat it.2
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TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.
Are you saying that you align your ethics 100% with those who you associate with? For me at least there are varying levels of my beliefs, and there are things that I'd be willing to overlook or tolerate in people that I would not in myself. Not every belief I hold is do or die.
If I equated killing animals with murder then I would equate those who eat animals with serial killers. If I knew someone was a serial killer I would not associate with them.
That is IF the person equated it to murder. And even then theres the question of the severity of thaylt action enacted on an animal and if that equates to the same action taken on a human.
Not all vegans think to that extreme about it. I personally have some leanings towards what we can assume is the complexity of the experience an animal can be somewhat correlated to the severity of ending it's existence. A human, as far as we know it, has a far more complex experience than a dog, which is more complex than an ant, which is more complex than an amoeba. I'm not going to get up in arms about someone killing an ant. I'd be more bothered if it were a mouse, and more so if I were a dog, and much more so if it were a human.
There also is a big distinction between killing for sustinance, and a serial killer, killing for impulse or. Even a canibal. Then there's the separate distinction if directly killing is the same as indirectly, as is the case with most food people procure.
I mostly come at the vegan thing from an environmental stance, and the treatment of animals is secondary, though still important. To me killing a cow is not the same as killing a human at all. It's still bad, and I choose not to participate in the industry that is made off of that. Those companies that treat their animals better than others is certainly better than those treating animals poorly and keeping them in terrible living conditions. I hold that personal belief and I don't hold others to that standard at all.
Now when we get lab meat down to an affordable price and widely available , then the use of animals for food becomes less acceptable, even tfrom farms treating animals well. But again, none of that is something that I expect my friends and family to follow. I will gladly provide thdm with information when asked, but im not slapping food out of my dads hands when i go visit. I still hold humans in much higher regard than other animals, while still supporting better treatment of animals.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.
I am vegan for ethical reasons and those reasons do involve the treatment of animals. If you read my posts, you'll see that I never said otherwise -- I simply clarified that I don't believe "all life is sacred."
Why the sarcasm? It seems like you're trying to score points instead of trying to genuinely understand where I'm coming from. If you're trying to understand where I'm coming from, I'm happy to continue the conversation. What I'm not interested in is having words put in my mouth or for you to assume that because I choose to associate with non-vegans that my veganism isn't a big deal to me.
Is it vegans that upset you or are you personally upset with me? If I'm done or said something to bother you, I apologize.0 -
TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.janejellyroll wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »I know one doesn't equate to the other, but the common theme is the bigotry behind the proponents and their followers. And the constant need to pontificate/codify a certain belief system.
If the vegans you have met have a constant need to pontificate, I suggest you meet some new vegans. There are many of us who aren't that interested in pontificating. I'll answer questions when asked, but most people I know aren't even aware that I'm vegan or only know it because they have noticed what I'm eating (in group settings) and asked me directly about it.
As far as vegan bigotry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Most vegans have been non-vegans and have loved ones who are non-vegan. My husband, stepfather, siblings, and most of my friends aren't vegan. I love and cherish them all. I'm not some rare bird -- most of the vegans I have met have cherished non-vegans in their lives.
I've never understood this. If, as a vegan, you believe that it is unethical and murderous to exploit, kill, and/or consume other living things then how can you tolerate associating with people who are basically on the same level as serial killers?
Looking at history shows us that many people who are consistently exercise goodness and kindness have "blindspots" in their compassion and/or empathy, groups which are exempted from the ethical guidelines they use when interacting with others. How do I know that I don't have some myself, ones that I won't feel regretful for in the future or will seem very clear to future generations but are now not visible to me?
I don't think non-vegans are the equivalent of serial killers, I don't think they are on the same level.
Is it always easy to spend so much time with non-vegans? No, there are sometimes challenges. But all interpersonal relationships have challenges. I have friends and siblings who disagree with some of *my* ethical choices and demonstrate for me how to nurture friendship and love even across great differences. For an example, my husband and I have great political differences -- he thinks I support policies that can hurt people and make the world a worse place. But we talk about it, try to understand the other's POV. I don't think he thinks his life would be better if he never associated with people like me. I know my life wouldn't be better if I never associated with people like him.
But if you are vegan because you believe all life is sacred how can you rationalize accepting someone who purposely exploits and actively ends those lives. If I found out that someone I loved was actually a member of the Ku Klux Klan and engaged in lynching black people on weekends I would stop associating with them because what they are doing is absolutely horrible.
How hollow is your belief in the sanctity of life that you can turn a blind eye to someone who takes pleasure in what you consider exploitation, torture, and murder?
I'm not vegan because I believe all life is sacred.
Do you think being non-vegan is like being a member of the KKK? I don't. If you'd like to explain the connection between the two, I am open to hearing more.
You missed his analogy completely.
He's saying *not* being vegan is like being in the KKK, or more accurately, if the tenets of veganism are believed by a vegan, then associating with someone who does not subscribe to these tenets would be like someone associating with someone in the KKK despite their beliefs/activities being abhorrent to them.
I didn't miss it -- I'm questioning it. I don't agree with his assumption that vegan to non-vegan is to non-KKK member to KKK member. I think it's based in assumptions in what all vegans think or believe. Some vegans may relate to non-vegans as non-KKK members would relate to KKK members, but not all vegans. And certainly not me.
I'm also questioning the assumption that the only rationale for veganism is that "all life is sacred."
I thought you had said that you were vegan for ethical reasons. And I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the ethical reasons involved the treatment of animals. Therefore those who eat meat and wear leather and fur would be doing something (killing) that you find "unethical". But apparently it's not *that* big of a deal. As long as you do your part it's okay if others want to kill and torture animals.
Are you saying that you align your ethics 100% with those who you associate with? For me at least there are varying levels of my beliefs, and there are things that I'd be willing to overlook or tolerate in people that I would not in myself. Not every belief I hold is do or die.
If I equated killing animals with murder then I would equate those who eat animals with serial killers. If I knew someone was a serial killer I would not associate with them.
Not every vegan equates eating animals with murder though. I think part of the issue here is that you have assumptions about what vegans think and not every vegan may match your assumptions.0 -
OP if you or anyone else wants to add me as a friend for vegan/vegetarian support (I try to stay vegan) I promise to never judge what's in your diary and expect the same from my friends. If a certain diet does not make you feel good and you want to switch to another type of eating and you have a friend who won't support you, I guess they weren't a real friend to begin with. It goes back to first grade. I would just delete anyone who wants to comment on your eating. That is so personal and weird.
And to everyone on this thread who actually cares what other people eat, how they define themselves, what the dictionary says, etc. y'all need to get a hobby.1 -
lolosensan2 wrote: »OP if you or anyone else wants to add me as a friend for vegan/vegetarian support (I try to stay vegan) I promise to never judge what's in your diary and expect the same from my friends. If a certain diet does not make you feel good and you want to switch to another type of eating and you have a friend who won't support you, I guess they weren't a real friend to begin with. It goes back to first grade. I would just delete anyone who wants to comment on your eating. That is so personal and weird.
And to everyone on this thread who actually cares what other people eat, how they define themselves, what the dictionary says, etc. y'all need to get a hobby.
One of my hobbies *is* thinking about food, the role in plays in our culture, and how we talk about it. Some people are interested in these conversations. That's okay, you don't have to participate if you don't want to.0 -
i am an ethical vegan , i went vegetarian as a teenager for ethical reasons and when i learned about the dairy and egg industry i over night went vegan .
that's just how i am , my heart guides me
best decision i have ever made for both my body and who i am as a person
OP do your research find some basic vegan meals and snacks you love and then work from there1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lolosensan2 wrote: »OP if you or anyone else wants to add me as a friend for vegan/vegetarian support (I try to stay vegan) I promise to never judge what's in your diary and expect the same from my friends. If a certain diet does not make you feel good and you want to switch to another type of eating and you have a friend who won't support you, I guess they weren't a real friend to begin with. It goes back to first grade. I would just delete anyone who wants to comment on your eating. That is so personal and weird.
And to everyone on this thread who actually cares what other people eat, how they define themselves, what the dictionary says, etc. y'all need to get a hobby.
One of my hobbies *is* thinking about food, the role in plays in our culture, and how we talk about it. Some people are interested in these conversations. That's okay, you don't have to participate if you don't want to.
That is fine that you have those interests. I'm simply trying to say that if somebody is really concerned with what somebody ELSE is eating, or how somebody ELSE defines themselves, maybe they should do something else for a little while.0 -
lolosensan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lolosensan2 wrote: »OP if you or anyone else wants to add me as a friend for vegan/vegetarian support (I try to stay vegan) I promise to never judge what's in your diary and expect the same from my friends. If a certain diet does not make you feel good and you want to switch to another type of eating and you have a friend who won't support you, I guess they weren't a real friend to begin with. It goes back to first grade. I would just delete anyone who wants to comment on your eating. That is so personal and weird.
And to everyone on this thread who actually cares what other people eat, how they define themselves, what the dictionary says, etc. y'all need to get a hobby.
One of my hobbies *is* thinking about food, the role in plays in our culture, and how we talk about it. Some people are interested in these conversations. That's okay, you don't have to participate if you don't want to.
That is fine that you have those interests. I'm simply trying to say that if somebody is really concerned with what somebody ELSE is eating, or how somebody ELSE defines themselves, maybe they should do something else for a little while.
The exchange of ideas is a good thing. A concern about someone else's views or actions is perfectly valid, especially if the impact is greater than just to themselves. If it is just discussion then either nothing comes from it as all sides just stick to what they started with, or something said may spark a change in someone. Talking about it is not hurting anyone and I think it's healthy to discuss these ideas, as it does help one critique their own views as well as he views of others.1 -
lolosensan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lolosensan2 wrote: »OP if you or anyone else wants to add me as a friend for vegan/vegetarian support (I try to stay vegan) I promise to never judge what's in your diary and expect the same from my friends. If a certain diet does not make you feel good and you want to switch to another type of eating and you have a friend who won't support you, I guess they weren't a real friend to begin with. It goes back to first grade. I would just delete anyone who wants to comment on your eating. That is so personal and weird.
And to everyone on this thread who actually cares what other people eat, how they define themselves, what the dictionary says, etc. y'all need to get a hobby.
One of my hobbies *is* thinking about food, the role in plays in our culture, and how we talk about it. Some people are interested in these conversations. That's okay, you don't have to participate if you don't want to.
That is fine that you have those interests. I'm simply trying to say that if somebody is really concerned with what somebody ELSE is eating, or how somebody ELSE defines themselves, maybe they should do something else for a little while.
If someone says "This is how I eat, but I'm not sure what to call it," I think it is okay to discuss. She opened that door and she hasn't said that this conversation bothers her (that I've seen). It's all discussion on an internet forum, I don't think anyone is "really concerned." Aren't we all just here passing time and socializing for the most part?0
This discussion has been closed.
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