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"Tell Me I'm Fat"
Replies
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Char231023 wrote: »OMG this whole podcast resonated so well with what I am going through especially with Elna and Roxanne. Before I turned 21, I never thought of weight like I do now and I especially never thought to hate myself or my body because I was morbidly obese. Yes, I knew I needed to lose some weight, but I never thought about it in such a negatively draining obsessive way until I realized that people do care about looks and they do treat you differently based on how you look. It really didn't hit me how much a lot of men care about a woman's weight until my experience with being rejected because of my weight happened. After that I hit a deep depression because I knew if I didn't lose the weight, it would always be this way for me but knowing the truth---that people treat me differently because I am smaller---is what is the most depressing thing about losing all the weight. Sometimes I think I sabotage my weight loss efforts because I know that I am going to be treated differently and I am not ready for that.
Also on should society's views on fat people change?--- I have a love/hate thing for the FAT acceptance movement. On the one hand, its so good to be positive about yourself and your body as it is and I am working on loving myself again, but at the same time if you are obviously overweight even if its not affecting your health presently, it can and most likely will in the long run. For me, its already starting to affect me and I'm only 24 and not even morbidly obese anymore, just in class I. So I am on the fence about that subject and think its a case by case thing. Not every overweight person needs to lose weight especially if they are more muscle than fat, tall or athletic. One thing I would like to see happen is that the FA movement move towards promoting better eating: less processed foods and more produce. I would really get on the wagon then. If I had had that growing up, I wouldn't be obese now.
Kudos to those that accept themselves the way that they are, but I just hope at the same time they aim for better health. And I think that's the controversy with the body positivity movement or FA movement because if more big people in this movement ate healthy and exercised at least 4x-5x a week, would they still be big?
Some yes, but the majority no. When I went vegan and exercised almost 5x day, I dropped 10lbs in 2 weeks. So I know if the majority ate truly clean (hardly no processed foods and little to no meat) and was more active, there would be hardly no one obese except for those with medical issues causing their obesity.
When I can afford it I will be going back vegan again.
I read one or two books a few years ago. That's actually part of the whole HAES process. Eating a healthy nutritious diet, basically doing anything to improve yourself without weight loss being the end goal. And from reading MFP, we all know that "clean eating" (or substitute whichever phrase you prefer) in and of itself won't lead to weight loss. People who like vegetables and lean meats can still struggle to lose weight because the sum total of their diet is such that they're consuming more calories than their goals might suggest. If you mean clean eating at reasonable calorie levels and nothing else, well. That can be very difficult to stick to and tends to suck out a lot of enjoyment from life and eating for a lot of people, and compliance to this form of dietary white knuckling can be quite low considering the long term.
If HAES was just like that and about getting healthy (incorporating more whole foods not necessarily "clean foods") and getting on an exercise program. Health at every size in that aspect would be great. But that is not how it is being interpreted by certain people who are overweight.
I most likely don't completely understand this comment, but to me that's just like saying because some people with *cough* nutritional issues abuse the MyFitnessPal app, aw hell I don't know. Anyone can misinterpret anything. Perhaps you could expand on your comment? Some people misinterpret HAES and instead don't do anything healthy whatsoever for their bodies and consider themselves healthy?
Sorry once I log off at 4:30 usually don't get back on.
What I mean is that HAES stands for Health at every size. As it should be used as a motivator that everybody can be health and not matter what your size you can workout or just be active and eat good foods for you health. The Outspoken supporters of HAES seems like they are saying I eat what I want, I am going to be as fat as I want, and I am going to sit on my lazy butt. When in reality that lifestyle isn't healthy even for the lazy skinny people who eat nothing but junk. Neither of those things are healthy.
HAES which I really don't think is a good thing either because the people who weight 400+ are not healthy1 -
I listened to this last week and really loved it, though the timing for it was bad- I had a thigh lift a few weeks ago and hearing Elna Baker's description of her thigh incision ripping open made me insanely paranoid!
It was interesting to hear several different perspectives. I enjoyed hearing Lindy's thoughts on this and I generally believe there is more good than bad to the concept of fat acceptance in the sense that there is literally no reason for anyone else to shame someone based on weight. It's not even helpful. And people can still love themselves and have a desire to improve their health. But, Roxanne's view that it is easier to be "Lane Bryant" fat and feel that way when you still have clothing options and mobility and can sit wherever you want without thinking twice about it, versus being "super morbidly obese" is a good point as well. There is certainly a point where weight affects health, but also another point where it completely affects and cripples one's livelihood.
Anyway I really enjoyed it and I agreed with the main takeaway that people are people, regardless of size. That doesn't mean they should just ignore health risks, but there is zero reason to dehumanize or mock anyone based on weight.3 -
That resignation can be a tough pill to swallow, but it basically stems from another reaction to some "data" that a lot of us know all too well - the percentage of people who lose significant amounts of weight and actually keep it off. I've seen depressing numbers ranging anywhere from 3% to 20%. Some people say the studies that report these numbers are bogus, in which case I'd like to read a better one, and hope like hell that those stats are changing for the better as time goes on.
Anyway, if you were considering an investment that took a lot of your resources and only 5% of people made an appreciable amount of money, mightn't you consider other options? Any other options?
You have a very good point but let's play devil's advocate here.
For a lot of people, dieting is expensive. Weight Watchers, Beach Body, recipe books, diet pills, detox teas (as if poison is making you fat), there's a prosperous industry selling the promise of weight loss. But for a lot of other people, eating less means saving money. It shouldn't be a $ sink.
If you gain the weight back after a few years, you still at least got those few years of feeling better and more capable and probably being treated better by others. If we're looking at this as an investment, that's some return.
But I do think you're on to something.0 -
Do those folks who feel they must simply share their thoughts to lose weight, then go up to smokers and tell them to quit? Maybe they hang out at bars and scream over the music that drinking is the devil's potion?
I think that behaviour speaks to the idot "sharing their thoughts" with a complete stranger.2 -
ParkingPeddler wrote: »Do those folks who feel they must simply share their thoughts to lose weight, then go up to smokers and tell them to quit? Maybe they hang out at bars and scream over the music that drinking is the devil's potion?
I think that behaviour speaks to the idot "sharing their thoughts" with a complete stranger.
Interesting you should say that, because not too long ago there was a thread about a lady who approached a smoker and made a lame joke about how smoking ruins her hair. She was ripped to shreds in the comments for not minding her own business.1 -
I just came across this podcast yesterday from a /r/loseit thread. Small world!
I agree with a lot of her points, in particular her calling out those who concern troll regarding health. I was mid- to upper-class II obese when I started losing weight (5'5 226lbs), and I'm in the lower end of the spectrum right now for class I obese. That being said, my health is actually quite good. Even before I started exercising and trying to lose weight, my blood work came back good, my cardiovascular health was found to be sound, and I had no pain, gastric distress, or complains save for not menstruating (which has been a longtime issue for me regardless of weight). Despite being very, very obese, my health was quite good. Even now, I work out 4-6 days a week and fitness-wise, I'm probably in better shape than most of my thinner colleagues. I'm not delusional - this is based on observation and their own admission. This isn't meant to be bragging, but rather to show that many of us fat folk can, in fact, have objectively good health in spite of our size.
Even if a fat person ISN'T in great health, I see no benefit in shaming them and making them feel sub-human because of health problems. Even if weight loss would greatly benefit them, there's nothing that excuses mockery, shaming, or a basic lack of humanity. I would never make fun of someone who had a tracheotomy simply because they made less-than-ideal health choices (smoking). Likewise, I don't consider it acceptable to make fun of fat people in poor health simply because they don't eat or exercise well.
I find Lindy's parallels between LGBT discrimination and fat discrimination troubling, though. As a bisexual, fat woman myself, I find it offensive to compare radically-difference experiences so casually. Many will disagree, but being fat IS reversible. You can absolutely change the fact that you're fat. There's not a g*ddamn thing I can do to change the fact that I like chicks and dudes.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Last I checked, reality cares not about their feels. I'm sure her heart will check and see if it would make her feel bad when it finally gives up on trying to motorboat her "super morbidly obese" *kitten* around. Being called that is dehumanizing? Somehow more dehumanizing than being confined to rolling around on a Rascal because one's legs said "screw this" a while ago?
I've always been a "if you're happy with it, roll with it" kind of person. I fully support the right of people who want to sport gargantuan waists and accept themselves, to do so. However, I also support the right of others to mock them for letting it get to that point.
I don't care how they try to rationalize it. It eventually comes to the point where even the farthest reaching of medical problems are just an excuse to cover for sheer mental laziness, and a lack of will. "Muh thyroid!" There are people who literally have no thyroid, after having it removed, and they don't end up looking like that if they take their meds (I know two of them personally).
Okay, I'm done ranting now. This fat acceptance crap just irritates me to no end...and that's coming from a former fatty.
Holy judgment, batman. I am so sad that you think this way- what a horrible way to look at other people, and to be okay with treating and thinking of other people as less than human, especially when you claim to have been there yourself. It's a strange phenomenon I keep seeing on the boards- some people who lose a lot of weight suddenly become the harshest judges. It's a weird power twist- like when kids who are bullied grow up to be the bullies. It's almost like in order to lose the weight you had to demonize the fat and make fat people the enemy. Sorry, but that's not okay.
Maybe you need to look in the mirror and think long and hard about what got you to your highest weight and where you are now, without the superiority complex. Be human. For most people, the problem isn't the physical barriers of weight loss, but the mental ones. Loving yourself is the first step to weight loss in my opinion- not the other way around, and spreading hatred and judgement to people you know nothing about is not going to help anyone.
ETA: I also have conflicted feelings about the fat acceptance movement. Fat is not healthy, and should not be accepted as such. Fat people ARE treated differently, however, and people think it's okay to "mock" them and treat them as less than human, and I cannot get behind that. It's depressing and it has sabotaged my weight loss in the past instead of encouraging me.
I've never made excuses for my weight, but I also know that I have always been clinically depressed with suicidal ideation and if you've never experienced that, you'll never understand the horrible dark hole that you are perpetually living in. Feeling that there's mass amounts of people who prefer you don't exist only sent me deeper into that hole. I remember after my sister died suddenly and tragically, I was at my heaviest weight. I spent my birthday alone after that and I was so, so sad. I thought instead of a cake, I'd go to the store and buy one of those character cupcakes- you know the cute ones made to look like characters or flowers? I got one that looked like Oscar the Grouch because it made me smile a little. As I went through the self checkout- sure enough, someone commented that the fat girl just came in to buy a sugary cupcake to stuff her face with, just loud enough so I'd "accidentally" overhear. I went home and sobbed uncontrollably, on my birthday, alone. I was very close to taking my own life that day.
It's been a long, hard and emotional road, but I'm finally getting somewhere. As a result, I became actually ready to do something about my weight, and to care enough about my own life to take those steps.
So please, be kind. Your personal experience is not everyone else's.
Your story made me tear up. People suck. And it's even worse when they don't know that they suck - you can't fix that. 4 -
Char231023 wrote: »Char231023 wrote: »OMG this whole podcast resonated so well with what I am going through especially with Elna and Roxanne. Before I turned 21, I never thought of weight like I do now and I especially never thought to hate myself or my body because I was morbidly obese. Yes, I knew I needed to lose some weight, but I never thought about it in such a negatively draining obsessive way until I realized that people do care about looks and they do treat you differently based on how you look. It really didn't hit me how much a lot of men care about a woman's weight until my experience with being rejected because of my weight happened. After that I hit a deep depression because I knew if I didn't lose the weight, it would always be this way for me but knowing the truth---that people treat me differently because I am smaller---is what is the most depressing thing about losing all the weight. Sometimes I think I sabotage my weight loss efforts because I know that I am going to be treated differently and I am not ready for that.
Also on should society's views on fat people change?--- I have a love/hate thing for the FAT acceptance movement. On the one hand, its so good to be positive about yourself and your body as it is and I am working on loving myself again, but at the same time if you are obviously overweight even if its not affecting your health presently, it can and most likely will in the long run. For me, its already starting to affect me and I'm only 24 and not even morbidly obese anymore, just in class I. So I am on the fence about that subject and think its a case by case thing. Not every overweight person needs to lose weight especially if they are more muscle than fat, tall or athletic. One thing I would like to see happen is that the FA movement move towards promoting better eating: less processed foods and more produce. I would really get on the wagon then. If I had had that growing up, I wouldn't be obese now.
Kudos to those that accept themselves the way that they are, but I just hope at the same time they aim for better health. And I think that's the controversy with the body positivity movement or FA movement because if more big people in this movement ate healthy and exercised at least 4x-5x a week, would they still be big?
Some yes, but the majority no. When I went vegan and exercised almost 5x day, I dropped 10lbs in 2 weeks. So I know if the majority ate truly clean (hardly no processed foods and little to no meat) and was more active, there would be hardly no one obese except for those with medical issues causing their obesity.
When I can afford it I will be going back vegan again.
I read one or two books a few years ago. That's actually part of the whole HAES process. Eating a healthy nutritious diet, basically doing anything to improve yourself without weight loss being the end goal. And from reading MFP, we all know that "clean eating" (or substitute whichever phrase you prefer) in and of itself won't lead to weight loss. People who like vegetables and lean meats can still struggle to lose weight because the sum total of their diet is such that they're consuming more calories than their goals might suggest. If you mean clean eating at reasonable calorie levels and nothing else, well. That can be very difficult to stick to and tends to suck out a lot of enjoyment from life and eating for a lot of people, and compliance to this form of dietary white knuckling can be quite low considering the long term.
If HAES was just like that and about getting healthy (incorporating more whole foods not necessarily "clean foods") and getting on an exercise program. Health at every size in that aspect would be great. But that is not how it is being interpreted by certain people who are overweight.
I most likely don't completely understand this comment, but to me that's just like saying because some people with *cough* nutritional issues abuse the MyFitnessPal app, aw hell I don't know. Anyone can misinterpret anything. Perhaps you could expand on your comment? Some people misinterpret HAES and instead don't do anything healthy whatsoever for their bodies and consider themselves healthy?
Sorry once I log off at 4:30 usually don't get back on.
What I mean is that HAES stands for Health at every size. As it should be used as a motivator that everybody can be health and not matter what your size you can workout or just be active and eat good foods for you health. The Outspoken supporters of HAES seems like they are saying I eat what I want, I am going to be as fat as I want, and I am going to sit on my lazy butt. When in reality that lifestyle isn't healthy even for the lazy skinny people who eat nothing but junk. Neither of those things are healthy.
HAES which I really don't think is a good thing either because the people who weight 400+ are not healthy
If those are the proponents you're familiar with, then I guess that's your experience. But to be perfectly frank, I find it a bit hard to believe that proponents of "health" at every size are doing absolutely nothing healthy, and suspect that a limited definition of "health" might be in play.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »That resignation can be a tough pill to swallow, but it basically stems from another reaction to some "data" that a lot of us know all too well - the percentage of people who lose significant amounts of weight and actually keep it off. I've seen depressing numbers ranging anywhere from 3% to 20%. Some people say the studies that report these numbers are bogus, in which case I'd like to read a better one, and hope like hell that those stats are changing for the better as time goes on.
Anyway, if you were considering an investment that took a lot of your resources and only 5% of people made an appreciable amount of money, mightn't you consider other options? Any other options?
You have a very good point but let's play devil's advocate here.
For a lot of people, dieting is expensive. Weight Watchers, Beach Body, recipe books, diet pills, detox teas (as if poison is making you fat), there's a prosperous industry selling the promise of weight loss. But for a lot of other people, eating less means saving money. It shouldn't be a $ sink.
If you gain the weight back after a few years, you still at least got those few years of feeling better and more capable and probably being treated better by others. If we're looking at this as an investment, that's some return.
But I do think you're on to something.
I'd have to agree. But I suppose it also depends on the individual's tolerance for that high low high low as you regain and lose all sorts of things in the process.0 -
I just listened to this and it was very thought-provoking. If I'm honest with myself, I have to admit to having not so kind thoughts about people's weight without knowing anything about them, especially people who have overweight children. I hope I haven't said or did anything to make anyone feel bad but chances are that I have without even realizing it. Something I'll need to work on for sure, correcting my internal dialogue about people of whom I know nothing. I would hate to make someone's already hard road even harder. Overall, though, it just made me sad. None of the speakers sounded like they were happy, just resigned.5
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Listened to this a few days ago with my girlfriend. We both found it thought-provoking and riveting. It was very sympathetic to the fat acceptance idea.
One of the speakers, the lady who had lost a great deal of weight and kept it off, kept saying she was a better person when she was heavy than when she was thin. This didn't make sense to me. I understand being depressed at being treated differently, but, if you aren't treating other people unfairly...? Then she talked about going to Mexico to buy speed pills illegally and her moral qualms became less mysterious.
I'm seeing much less change in the way people treat me than was described in the program. I'm sure a lot of that is because I'm a man, and because I'm already in a stable relationship and job.0 -
If those are the proponents you're familiar with, then I guess that's your experience. But to be perfectly frank, I find it a bit hard to believe that proponents of "health" at every size are doing absolutely nothing healthy, and suspect that a limited definition of "health" might be in play.
The HAES proponents I'm familiar with say things like:
* Intentional weight loss is self-harm.
* No one ever feels better by losing weight -- it's psychosomatic, or social pressure, or ... something.
* Being obese is actually normal, because we evolved from "aquatic apes."
* Not being attracted to someone who is obese is equivalent to racism, homophobia, etc.
* Doctors should never suggest weight loss. Instead, they should suggest only what they would also suggest to a thin person with the same problem.
* Fat does not cause health problems; it's the other way around.
Granted, I've probably only been exposed to the fringe elements. But then, the fringe always seems to be the most vocal. I wasn't actually aware of a more "normal" faction of HAES.
7 -
If those are the proponents you're familiar with, then I guess that's your experience. But to be perfectly frank, I find it a bit hard to believe that proponents of "health" at every size are doing absolutely nothing healthy, and suspect that a limited definition of "health" might be in play.
The HAES proponents I'm familiar with say things like:
* Intentional weight loss is self-harm.
* No one ever feels better by losing weight -- it's psychosomatic, or social pressure, or ... something.
* Being obese is actually normal, because we evolved from "aquatic apes."
* Not being attracted to someone who is obese is equivalent to racism, homophobia, etc.
* Doctors should never suggest weight loss. Instead, they should suggest only what they would also suggest to a thin person with the same problem.
* Fat does not cause health problems; it's the other way around.
Granted, I've probably only been exposed to the fringe elements. But then, the fringe always seems to be the most vocal. I wasn't actually aware of a more "normal" faction of HAES.
This and they also say if you are happy with you self at your obese weight why would you want to lose weight.2 -
If those are the proponents you're familiar with, then I guess that's your experience. But to be perfectly frank, I find it a bit hard to believe that proponents of "health" at every size are doing absolutely nothing healthy, and suspect that a limited definition of "health" might be in play.
The HAES proponents I'm familiar with say things like:
* Intentional weight loss is self-harm.
* No one ever feels better by losing weight -- it's psychosomatic, or social pressure, or ... something.
* Being obese is actually normal, because we evolved from "aquatic apes."
* Not being attracted to someone who is obese is equivalent to racism, homophobia, etc.
* Doctors should never suggest weight loss. Instead, they should suggest only what they would also suggest to a thin person with the same problem.
* Fat does not cause health problems; it's the other way around.
Granted, I've probably only been exposed to the fringe elements. But then, the fringe always seems to be the most vocal. I wasn't actually aware of a more "normal" faction of HAES.
Again, weight weight weight weight. Is that all there is to health, or the person for that matter? The claim I found hard to believe was that they were doing nothing healthyChar231023 wrote: »
If those are the proponents you're familiar with, then I guess that's your experience. But to be perfectly frank, I find it a bit hard to believe that proponents of "health" at every size are doing absolutely nothing healthy, and suspect that a limited definition of "health" might be in play.
The HAES proponents I'm familiar with say things like:
* Intentional weight loss is self-harm.
* No one ever feels better by losing weight -- it's psychosomatic, or social pressure, or ... something.
* Being obese is actually normal, because we evolved from "aquatic apes."
* Not being attracted to someone who is obese is equivalent to racism, homophobia, etc.
* Doctors should never suggest weight loss. Instead, they should suggest only what they would also suggest to a thin person with the same problem.
* Fat does not cause health problems; it's the other way around.
Granted, I've probably only been exposed to the fringe elements. But then, the fringe always seems to be the most vocal. I wasn't actually aware of a more "normal" faction of HAES.
This and they also say if you are happy with you self at your obese weight why would you want to lose weight.
You may not have the same answer as the next person, but IMO it's a legit question. It's actually pretty sensible to change things you're unhappy about and not the other way round0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I'm seeing much less change in the way people treat me than was described in the program. I'm sure a lot of that is because I'm a man, and because I'm already in a stable relationship and job.
That, and I think a lot of your own perception will dictate how you feel you're being viewed or treated by others. If others' opinions are no big deal to you, naturally you'll notice less of a difference. If you walk around feeling like you're an outcast, you'll definitely think everyone is staring at you and judging your lifestyle choices.
In reality I think most people don't really care either way if you're overweight and eating a cheeseburger in public because they have their own insecurities to be wrapped up in.4
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