Gut microbe imbalance and diabetes

madammags

Researchers have found a link between high numbers of specific gut microbes and insulin resistance.

Not so much for debate as information, I guess, but I thought it was interesting anyway, and since it's a local university, we are probably hearing about it here before the international media have picked up on it.

Blurb from the university here and full article here (in Nature, behind pay wall, if anyone has access I'd love to hear more deatils from the study).

From what I can tell, some causality has been shown, in addition to correlations. I think we are only just at the tip of the iceberg with regards to the influence of gut bacteria.

I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention, or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

Zipp237

We are on the tip of the iceberg with everything in the body. We have only learned enough to know that there is an almost unending amount of things we don't know.

Every time we learn something new, it just shows us how much more there is to know, especially regarding the brain. The biggest breakthrough ever basically told us, "Holy *kitten*, there is so much more going on than we ever suspected!"

RalfLott

Zipp237 wrote: »

We are on the tip of the iceberg with everything in the body. We have only learned enough to know that there is an almost unending amount of things we don't know.

Every time we learn something new, it just shows us how much more there is to know, especially regarding the brain. The biggest breakthrough ever basically told us, "Holy *kitten*, there is so much more going on than we ever suspected!"

How true. Like the shadows on Plato's cave walls, the scant information we're able to piece together about our health is far removed from the real and complete.
But if all we have are shadows, we'd better keep watching.....

************

Here's a fascinating "crowd sourced, citizen science" project specifically aimed at the mysterious worlds inside our guts:

http://americangut.org/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4Oq0Mgghf0

NorthCascades

madammags wrote: »

I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention [or prevention], or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

So what affects the gut bacteria...?

RalfLott

NorthCascades wrote: »

So what affects the gut bacteria...?

"[C]hanges can happen incredibly fast in the human gut—within three or four days of a big shift in what you eat."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-guts-microbiome-changes-diet/

psuLemon

NorthCascades wrote: »

madammags wrote: »

I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention [or prevention], or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

So what affects the gut bacteria...?

Pretty much everything. It is constantly changing based on the types of food you consume. And just because it changes, doesnt mean its always bad. Aaron provided some great insight into it over the last several pages of the aspartame isnt scary thread.

BinaryPulsar

In most healthy people and ordinary circumstances the gut microbiome can be changing all the time from the food we eat adjusting with diet to digest the foods we eat. Changing in neutral ways. The gut microbiome can change in good, bad, and neutral ways. I had a normal and very healthy gut health. But, I was put through some absurd medical injury from misdiagnosis, over prescribing, and incorrectly prescribing repetitively. As a result I developed malabsorption disorder and lost my ability to digest certain carbohydrates. And I developed life altering health issues from that. I have been struggling through this for over a year. This is not an easy fix. And I have finally figured out how to recover. I gained back my weight, my health issues have improved 98%, some of the issues are all better. I am continuing to make progress. I am regaining health. So, this topic is about gut microbiome changes leading to diabetes. I haven't looked into this specifically because I didn't have that exact issue. But, that would qualify as a negative change in the microbiome because it's causing a health problem. I guess some people will choose to accept health issues (as mentioned as a possible reaction in the op). I wasn't willing to lose my health. I did everything I could to get back on track to regaining the excellent health I had prior to the medical injuries.

LINIA

This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

BinaryPulsar

LINIA wrote: »

This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

For me I was in an unusual situation. I have malabsorption. I was on mfp for three years before I encountered this health issue. So, I had a good track record of counting calories and maintaining my weight. I joined on maintenance just for fitness (not to lose or gain). But, due to malabsorption I was eating 2500 to 3000 and couldn't gain past 95 pounds. But, this wasn't in any way a good thing. I had severe life disruptive health issues. The food would go straight through me undigested.

KetoneKaren

LINIA wrote: »

This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

To me, it isn't that CICO doesn't work. It just means that CICO isn't a simple formula, as we might be led to believe when we see a post like "it's all about CICO", which is a true but not very helpful comment when the reader has a complex situation like malabsorption which drastically affects the "CO" part of "CICO". In fact, CICO is as individual as a fingerprint. Each person's CICO is based on his/her unique situation and can't be reduced by everyone to a simple consumption/activity balance - each person has to start somewhere with calories and exercise, and tweak as needed...or in BinaryPulsar's case, correct a medical condition which drastically affects Calories Out.

Orphia

madammags wrote: »

Researchers have found a link between high numbers of specific gut microbes and insulin resistance.

Not so much for debate as information, I guess, but I thought it was interesting anyway, and since it's a local university, we are probably hearing about it here before the international media have picked up on it.

Blurb from the university here and full article here (in Nature, behind pay wall, if anyone has access I'd love to hear more deatils from the study).

From what I can tell, some causality has been shown, in addition to correlations. I think we are only just at the tip of the iceberg with regards to the influence of gut bacteria.

I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention, or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

I was interested to see the alleged causality, as so many gut biome claims in the health news these days are purely correlations.

From the university's blurb:

"The researchers observed that people who had a decreased capacity of insulin action, and therefore were insulin resistant, had elevated blood levels of a subgroup of amino acids called branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs). Importantly, the rise of BCAAs levels in blood was related to specific changes in the gut microbiota composition and function.

"The main drivers behind the gut bacterial biosynthesis of BCAAs turned out to be the two bacteria Prevotella copri and Bacteroides vulgatus. To test mechanistically if gut bacteria were a true cause of insulin resistance, the researchers fed mice with the Prevotella copri bacteria for 3 weeks. Compared with sham fed mice the Prevotella copi fed mice developed increased blood levels of BCAAs, insulin resistance and intolerance to glucose."

Interesting, but still, it's only in mice, not humans. This has a way to get before being hard science.

LINIA wrote: »

This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

Not so fast.

Again from the university:

"“Most people with insulin resistance do not know that they have it. However, it is known that the majority of overweight and obese individuals are insulin resistant and it is well known that dietary shifts to less calorie-dense eating and increased daily intake of any kind of vegetables and less intake of food rich in animal fat tend to normalize imbalances of gut microbiota and simultaneously improve insulin sensitivity of the host," adds Pedersen."

KetoneKaren

I haven't looked to see but wonder if there are studies comparing diabetics taking a probiotic vs placebo.

BinaryPulsar

My gut issue reached problematic levels for me when I was vegan. But, my diet had daily grains like quinoa mostly, rice, and I was trying many other grains. I was also eating high fodmap vegetables and vegetable protein such as beans. Too much fermenting in my gut because I had malabsorption. I had to start back to an omnivore (though limited) diet. The changes of the impact on my health from the vegan diet and return of health when I stopped was tremendous. I had no idea gut health could do all of that to a person. But, my many doctors and I do now. I am not saying a vegan diet is bad. It's clearly healthy for many people and as appears to be shown in research. But, it wasn't healthy for me in my personal circumstances. So, I look to the info for guidance. But, I keep a food diary, track my symptoms when they get worse and better. That's been the best way to heal. The experiential evidence in my own life that I have direct experience of.

RalfLott

Brava, @BinaryPulsar!

Are you in the process of hunting for a lower-FODMAP, mostly-vegetarian diet? If not, have you settled on any scheme in particular?

Congrats on your progress.

caroldavison332

so I try to stuff in as much raw and vegetable as possible, take a $.05 probiotic from Whole foods daily and avoid grains, sugars, flours and prepared food. I lost 29 pounds this year and only have 1 sinus infection, instead of my usual 4, and didn't loose work.

BinaryPulsar

RalfLott wrote: »

Brava, @BinaryPulsar!

Are you in the process of hunting for a lower-FODMAP, mostly-vegetarian diet? If not, have you settled on any scheme in particular?

Congrats on your progress.

I have found the diet that's working for me. I am 98% symptom free (hard to quantify), and some of the symptoms are completely gone. Now I am healing and making continued progress. And I gained back my weight. I am eating low fodmap fruit and vegetables (cooked). Kefir. Eggs. Chicken. Sometimes steak. Coconut and olive oil. Brazil and walnuts. Dark chocolate and cacao powder. Eventually I should be able to slowly add the fodmaps back again. Thanks!

RalfLott

@BinaryPulsar - Keep us all posted on your progress, eh? Sounds like you've really turned the corner.

BinaryPulsar

RalfLott wrote: »

@BinaryPulsar - Keep us all posted on your progress, eh? Sounds like you've really turned the corner.

Thanks! Ok.

tomteboda

Technically, @BinaryPulsar had a problem affecting "calories in" with "CICO". The phrase implies a standardized digestive and absorption process. Energy intake would be the bioavailable calories consumed, and for people with malabsorption issues, fewer foods are bioavailable. We don't generally consider undigested food mass as part of energy expenditure (calories out), it's generally treated as a net zero.

RalfLott

tomteboda wrote: »

Technically, @BinaryPulsar had a problem affecting "calories in" with "CICO". The phrase implies a standardized digestive and absorption process. Energy intake would be the bioavailable calories consumed, and for people with malabsorption issues, fewer foods are bioavailable. We don't generally consider undigested food mass as part of energy expenditure (calories out), it's generally treated as a net zero.

Thanks, @tomteboda. That's an interesting way to look at it.

But is it not true that no one's CI are completely absorbed, so that there's always a question mark on the CO side of the ledger? If not, what's "standard"?

lemurcat12

RalfLott wrote: »

tomteboda wrote: »

Technically, @BinaryPulsar had a problem affecting "calories in" with "CICO". The phrase implies a standardized digestive and absorption process. Energy intake would be the bioavailable calories consumed, and for people with malabsorption issues, fewer foods are bioavailable. We don't generally consider undigested food mass as part of energy expenditure (calories out), it's generally treated as a net zero.

Thanks, @tomteboda. That's an interesting way to look at it.

But is it not true that no one's CI are completely absorbed, so that there's always a question mark on the CO side of the ledger? If not, what's "standard"?

Why would absorption affect CO?

The way I think of it is that there's a question mark (to some extent) on CI, because we don't know precisely what percentage of what we eat we absorb, even if we track calories, since that varies (there are also other sources of error). But none of that means "CICO" doesn't work, especially if one is trying to lose, since it means calories in are LESS than what one would have thought. That's why I'm always confused when people (in general, not here necessarily) point to issues like this as an explanation for obesity.

CO is also a question mark, to some degree, since we can only guess at how much we burn each day and it will vary.

That we don't know either certainly obviously doesn't mean that CICO doesn't govern weight loss. Of course it does, whether we know the details or not. What people seem to try to argue with these things is that calorie counting (which is distinct from CICO) does not work, but that's not true either. You don't need exact numbers to calorie count (or eat less/move more). You just need to respond to results.

Some medical conditions make this harder: uncorrected thyroid problem that reduces energy and lowers TDEE is an obvious example. Others, that wouldn't seem to lead to weight gain, like malabsorption are dangerous and will leave you feeling terrible such that dieting isn't a good idea until the issue is corrected, probably. Others, like IR or, of course, actual T2D, will be reasons to eat in a particular way (there are many other medical reasons to eat in a particular way) but don't actually affect one's CI or CO.