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Gut microbe imbalance and diabetes

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  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,389 Member
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    @BinaryPulsar

    I just recently went through a short term situation similar to what you've been dealing with, and I can't imagine the long term issues you had to fight. I'm glad things are looking up for you!

    In my case it was antibiotics that caused the imbalance, and another round of antibiotics and use of probiotics got things back in order. To be honest I didn't keep very good track of what did stay in my system, as I was to the point of feeling energy deprived and just glad something was staying in me for a while.


    There seems to be a lot of recent research suggesting that gut bacteria from person to person has great influence on how well we absorb food. And a lot of studies are now pointing to the fact that gut bacteria may very well have an impact on mental health as some personal traits as well.

    A recent read....

    https://sciencenews.org/article/microbes-can-play-games-mind
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    edited July 2016
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    @robertw486 Yes, my situation is very long and complicated. But, it all started with a little red spot on the bride of my nose. Seemed apparent I had an infection in a location in my nose that couldn't be seen. I'm in Canada. They said I needed a referral to an ENT for a proper diagnosis. But, it was a seven month wait, so they didn't refer me. I wish they had because what they did to me has impacted my life for a year and a half, and left me with some permanent scarring and damage. So, they gave me antibiotics. But, they didn't know if or when the infection was going away. The swab came back negative and free and clear of all bacteria. But, I was having flushing as a side effect from antibiotics. And there was redness and scar tissue as would be normal. For some reason they didn't know any of this basic stuff. They kept giving me stronger antibiotics. The last one was very serious. It made me very sick, I had an allergic reaction, and it set in motion an auto-immune reaction. Then six months later I was doing fine, but I saw a dermatologist (I had been on the waiting list). She very wrongly prescribed a vasoconstrictor. It's only supposed to be prescribed for permanent facial redness. I had none. And never supposed to be used on scar tissue (I had) or for people with neurological issues (which I had from the antibiotics), and they are always supposed to provide informed consent of what the med does and about the rebound disorder that it is very well known for causing (the med has only been in Canada for a year). I used it three times (with a week between each application). It's a topical. Caused a severe rebound disorder which caused severe trigeminal nerve pain in reaction to any histamine, digestion, lying down. I could barely eat or sleep. I was a professional dancer and had to stop. I was completely debilitated and nonfunctional. But, the foods I was eating, because they weren't triggering nerve pain, were foods I had malabsorption to. I didn't know. And I was getting sicker and sicker and developing more symptoms. Dermatologist just wanted to treat skin symptoms with drugs that make things worse. I said no. Neurologist wanted to just treat the pain. I said no. My Rheumatologist helped me. She said stay off meds, track your diet and symptoms. I had to help myself. She tried four different GI doctors until she found one that would put me on a year long waiting list. She doesn't know my diagnosis, so she wrote celiac disease because it's most similar to that. But, I couldn't stop losing weight and had severe GI problems. I have six more months left on my wait to see a GI specialist. But, I am doing so much better now that I changed my diet. I also take probiotics and drink kefir. Now that my histamine reactions have decreased. I couldn't take probiotics or any fermented foods or animal products because the bacteria caused the histamine reactions which caused nerve pain in my face. It's so crazy what the doctors did to me. Instead of helping me, they just kept making me sicker. There is so much they don't know. Hopefully someday they will. Thanks for the link. I will read it.
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,389 Member
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    @BinaryPulsar

    Wow, it sounds like you went through the proverbial wringer with the entire process and misdiagnosis! I'm glad that you finally found something that turned things around for you.


    And just for clarity, I just posted the link to show that more studies are linking gut bacteria to more and more things. Not in any way suggesting that having a malabsorption issue would lead to mental health decay. But what you went through might have made me a bit crazy!
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    Thanks @robertw486
  • kizanne1
    kizanne1 Posts: 51 Member
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    I too believe that gut bacteria plays a huge part. The "food is all the same CICO" mantra ignores so much science. What you put in your body is important, it effects your health. If also effects the CICO equation.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
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    AmberSpamber wrote: »
    My doctor practices based on this theory alone. He was able to treat a ton of issues I was having by changing the way I ate and creating a healthy environment for my gut flora. It's been well studied, but big pharma keeps it well hidden. Think of how much money they would loose if people found out that they could treat their symptoms using natural things like ACV, Garlic, Salt etc.

    Congratulations on your progress - and also for finding a sympathetic physician.

    I'm curious how it worked - what all did he add & subtract from your diet, and how long did it take you to stabilize?

    Thx!

  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
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    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    I fully believe your microbiome can affect the way you digest and process food given your microbiomes important role in digestion. That said if you think that in the future we are going to control our intestinal flora in such a way as to "cure" diabetes then no, that isn't going to happen.

    Wouldn't you agree there aren't any sure bets?

    There were probably quite a few who doubted that oranges could cure scurvy or chocolate could cure syphilis.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    I fully believe your microbiome can affect the way you digest and process food given your microbiomes important role in digestion. That said if you think that in the future we are going to control our intestinal flora in such a way as to "cure" diabetes then no, that isn't going to happen.

    I can't help but feel that "microbiome" is the new "quantum mechanics" in terms of public perception. Its this thing they have heard about from science that sounds nebulous and confusing and therefore full of possibilities so they hang their hopes on it or make it serve their pet interests or issues. I remember when quantum mechanics was pointed at scientific confirmation of chakras or crystal power or whatever and now it seems that the microbiome is being pointed at as supportive of the idea that you can cure illnesses or genetic defects through diet.

    The bacteria in our gut help us process food. If the bacterial population shifts or changes it is quite possible that certain foods you will digest "better" (ie get more calorically or nutritionally from) and some not as well. But this isn't going to reverse diabetes.

    I have Nature access so if you want the full study you can hit me up and I'll send it to you.

    The only thing I can confirn from my experience (and supported by obvious logic) is that a messed up microbiome can cause severe GI problems, malabsorption disorder, and as a result of that there are other symptoms/disorders I developed that cleared up when I changed my diet. So, problems with the microbiome interfering with the ability to digest food can cause other symptoms (also very logical). And a lot of doctors aren't going to understand this. They may know there is a link. But, they don't know how to deal with it. We definitely need more research and understanding in this area. And there is a lot going on right now. And I find it valuable as a result of my experience. Some people go the other direction. By lack of education they reject everything. But, if a person has GI symptoms, they might want to consider the possibility of a messed up microbiome.

    Yes, it was weird when people were making mystical claims about quantum physics. My husband is a physicist, so we encountered that a lot from people asking him. Of course it's a misunderstanding of quantum physics and twisting it to confirm the existence of mystical ideas (and that whole law of attraction thing).
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
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    Wouldn't you agree there aren't any sure bets?

    There were probably quite a few who doubted that oranges could cure scurvy or chocolate could cure syphilis.

    Yes but in that regard there "Aren't any sure bets" on anything so you can't say "there aren't any sure bets" and then follow that with a suggested course of action on the basis of that.

    The phrase "we don't know" should never be followed by "therefore we should do this". If we don't know then we don't know and so we shouldn't act on what we just happen to feel is true.

    We understand enough about biology and biochemistry to make judgements about the likelyhood that something with help. There is no reason to believe that if you are type I diabetic that changing your gut flora would somehow allow you to start producing insulin (it wouldn't) nor is there a reason to believe that if you are type II diabetic that changing your gut flora would somehow influence the protein binding of insulin to its receptor.

    Its hanging your hope on the unknown, its God of the gaps. Better to act on what we do know then to come up with a "what if" and then spend your life acting like what you want to be true is true.

  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    edited August 2016
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    One other thing. That's only interesting. I haven't looked into it a ton. But, when I developed these issues after antibiotics I also developed elevated rheumatoid antibody factor. The field of rheumatology is seeing a possible link between gut flora changes and rheumatoid arthritis. It might just be coincidence, but still interesting. And it certainly wouldn't apply to everyone. I also developed trigeminal nerve pain. Which is triggered by eating food. It can be important in certain symptoms to look at what is triggering the symptoms. Sometimes not enough doctors have any scientific curiosity.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
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    Lets put it another way. If repopulating your gut microbiome with a different mix of species had an effect on diabeties then people who were on antibiotics would occasionally be "cured" of type II diabeties. Anytime you take a long course antibiotic which millions of people daily you essentially eradicate your microbiome and after the treatment is over you will have some digestive issues until your microbiome becomes repopulated likely with a different mix of species, whatever happens to take over from that initial eradication. If simply mixing up your gut microbiome or altering it significantly could influence insulin resistance to the point of "curing" type II diabetes then we would expect to see "cure" with some significant frequency after treatment with any antibiotic.

    Your gut microbiome aids in food digestion, it is not mystical or magical. Unless you can explain why changing food digestion would alter a low-affinity insulin receptor or the protein binding characteristics of insulin on what basis do you hold this belief?
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
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    " that a messed up microbiome can cause severe GI problems, malabsorption disorder, and as a result of that there are other symptoms/disorders"

    "problems with the microbiome interfering with the ability to digest food can cause other symptoms (also very logical)"

    " if a person has GI symptoms, they might want to consider the possibility of a messed up microbiome."

    I agree with all those statements. My skepticism comes in with its affect on diabeties as how food absorption would influence the binding affinity of your insulin receptors (in the case of type II) or just make you somehow capable of producing insulin in the first place (in the case of type I). I can imagine it influencing your blood sugar levels as it can definately affect absorbption of what you ingest, but thats about it.

    Out of curiosity did you experience gastrointestinal distress after being treated for a bacterial infection with antibiotics? That is the most common cause. You mentioned it was "due to diet" so I was wondering.

    "Yes, it was weird when people were making mystical claims about quantum physics. My husband is a physicist, so we encountered that a lot from people asking him. Of course it's a misunderstanding of quantum physics and twisting it to confirm the existence of mystical ideas (and that whole law of attraction thing)."

    I wasn't a physicist but I could see that for what it is. I am a biochemist/molecular biologist so I'm just pointing out that as a way of analogizing how the whole "microbiome as cause of X" looks to me. It probably looks how the claims of the public about quantum physics looked to a physicist. Basically taking something they don't really understand and making something up about it and then defending that claim by arguing "well we don't know enough so you can't tell me I'm wrong"


  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited August 2016
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    " But, when I developed these issues after antibiotics"

    Ah I just saw you answered my question in your next post.

    Yeah, antibiotics for treatment of bacterial infections are broad-spectrum and will also kill the bacteria that make up your microbiome. You will have to "repopulate" your gut flora after a long-course antibiotic treatment and chances are it won't be the same as before you took the treatment. Thats not really a bad thing, not trying to scare you with that, but until the repopulation you WILL have GI issues. That is to be expected though. Its just generally considered that some short-term GI issues are better than dying of sepsis from a bacterial infection.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    edited August 2016
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    No. All of my health issues started after the antibiotics and was worsened by an injury from a vasoconstrictor (which was very wrongly prescribed). I already explained what happened in this thread. It's a long story. I was incorrectly overtreated with antibiotics. I had a red spot on my nose. They kept misdiagnosing me. It was incredibly stupid. And I also had a severe allergic reaction to Bactrim DS. It was prescribed to me when I had no infection and after two other antibiotics. I am in Canada. They said I needed a proper diagnosis from an ENT. But, since the wait was too long they just kept giving me antibiotics. The swab was clear of all bacteria.

    I also don't see a link between diabetes and gut microbiome. It isn't something I have looked into.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited August 2016
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    Well I certainly can't speak to whether or not antibiotic treatment was appropriate in your case or not. It can cause issues though for sure and shouldn't be prescribed lightly.

    I'm in drug development in my current career so I am working on developing antibiotics. Part of our testing is to test also against E.coli other gram positive/negative bacteria to see if the potential drug also affects those other species (and thus your microbiome). If it does it is broad spectrum and is of less interest than something that is specific to what we are trying to treat.

    Ideally you have an antibiotic that targets the specific pathogen and an accurate diagnostic to diagnose that the patient has that pathogen. Then treatment has none of these side-effects. That said in an imperfect world diagnostics and diagnoses aren't 100% and many antibiotics are broad-spectrum to make sure whatever it is that is causing the infection/issue is eradicated at the expense of your microbiome. I don't think this is wrong, its just practical in an imperfect situation.

    As for the diabeties thing I am highly skeptical given the amount that "microbiome" has become the new "quantum physics" as far as explanations from a lay-public are concerned. It is overused and not well understood. Don't misunderstand me to be saying that our microbiomes aren't important to our overall health, they are.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    edited August 2016
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    Yeah, antibiotics are important and necessary. And should not be overprescribed. Mistakes will happen. My situation was very poorly handled by some bad doctors. And my test was negative of bacteria. They needed an ENT to just look. And I was overtreated. All doctors in my situation agree that happened. I ended up driving to the US to see an ENT. My husband's best friend is an ENT. He said I did not have an infection and they needed to stop giving me antibiotics which had made me very ill and I was having an allergic reaction (every inch of my body was covered in a rash). Drugs need to be used responsibly. No good doctor would agree with what happened to me. My Rheumatologist has been the best. She stopped this madness and said no more meds and she apologized on behalf of the medical field. I probably would have continued to recover fine from the antibiotics if six months later my life hadn't been turned upside down by being wrongly prescribed a vasoconstrictor. It's a very complicated situation. Thankfully I have a good doctor now, though the damage has been done. And I have lost a year of my life to this. But, I am improving now.

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