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Cheat day..yes or no?
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »One would think there was no variety in pizza. And that no one could put vegetables on pizza or eat pizza with vegetables on the side. Weird! I was unaware of these rules somehow.
Are you actually going to try to argue that there's vegetables on pizza...?
Are these not veggies?
You mean to tell me that I've been living a LIE?
Proximity to pizza exerts a devegetablization effect. They were vegetables, but they no longer are. Now they live in the cursed wasteland for foods that will destroy your fitness goals and break your heart. They couldn't go back, even if they wanted to.
Oh, yeah! How could I forget the devegetablization effect?
I heard it's the cheese that causes it. I avoid putting cheese on my salads for this very reason.4 -
I give myself a lot of leeway to eat, though I do try to moderate most of the time. Sometimes I will go off track for a bit even, but know I won't let things get too bad. So in that, I don't really do cheat days because I am not that strict daily anyway. Causes a heck of a lot less stress and internal conflict like when I was dieting and such.1
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No cheat days or meals for me. I could easily undo my weekly deficit with a cheat day.
Instead I do a combination of eating for my macros + micros and my favourite treats/foods/snacks. I don't have to 'work it off', or feel guilty. I eat my calories and move on without any complications.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »ladyreva78 wrote: »Urg. Great... now I want pizza, but there's no way I have the calories for it today. At least, not for an amount that would satisfy me (no way I'm only eating a slice of my yummy, homemade pizza with Gorgonzola, ham, tomato sauce, onions and artichoke hearts). I guess I'll have to plan that for tomorrow.
Would that be considered cheating? If you're planing for it?
Really, what is considered cheating is totally up to the individual. Many of us plan for more indulgent meals on a regular basis (weekly for me) that still enable me to stay within my calorie goal (at maintenance now but also when I was losing) and many (myself included) also believe in working in foods you enjoy on a daily basis and never call it cheating.
Truth be told that's what I do. I failed all previous attempts at losing weight because anything I liked ended up being 'cheating' the diet (overly restrictive diets that hurt to adhere to). There's only so much I can take before I cave in and stuff myself. So now it might take me a few days to manage to budget for it, but I always have the things I like. I'll be having that pizza tomorrow evening. Not getting home till about 9 tonight and I don't plan on waiting till 10 to eat.... On the upside I'll be walking for an hour while waiting for my physiotherapist appointment and I'll be saving those calories for an extra large slice of that pizza!2 -
Well, put it this way - I lost 2.2lb last week, had a bit of a cheat day on Sunday but not massively and on Monday I was up 4.2lb!! So I'm not really in favour of cheat days for me. If it's the weekend/I'm out and about then I'm not going to deprive myself of something but definitely won't be having a day full of unhealthy meals every week just for the sake of it...0
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That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.3 -
ladyreva78 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ladyreva78 wrote: »Urg. Great... now I want pizza, but there's no way I have the calories for it today. At least, not for an amount that would satisfy me (no way I'm only eating a slice of my yummy, homemade pizza with Gorgonzola, ham, tomato sauce, onions and artichoke hearts). I guess I'll have to plan that for tomorrow.
Would that be considered cheating? If you're planing for it?
Really, what is considered cheating is totally up to the individual. Many of us plan for more indulgent meals on a regular basis (weekly for me) that still enable me to stay within my calorie goal (at maintenance now but also when I was losing) and many (myself included) also believe in working in foods you enjoy on a daily basis and never call it cheating.
Truth be told that's what I do. I failed all previous attempts at losing weight because anything I liked ended up being 'cheating' the diet (overly restrictive diets that hurt to adhere to). There's only so much I can take before I cave in and stuff myself. So now it might take me a few days to manage to budget for it, but I always have the things I like. I'll be having that pizza tomorrow evening. Not getting home till about 9 tonight and I don't plan on waiting till 10 to eat.... On the upside I'll be walking for an hour while waiting for my physiotherapist appointment and I'll be saving those calories for an extra large slice of that pizza!
Sounds like you're on the right track to me!0 -
Well, put it this way - I lost 2.2lb last week, had a bit of a cheat day on Sunday but not massively and on Monday I was up 4.2lb!! So I'm not really in favour of cheat days for me. If it's the weekend/I'm out and about then I'm not going to deprive myself of something but definitely won't be having a day full of unhealthy meals every week just for the sake of it...
I don't advocate having a day of unhealthy meals just for the sake of it, but it's probably important to realize that the 4 extra lbs you saw on the scale were likely temporary water weight and not actual fat gain. You'd have to have consumed an extra 14k cals on that cheat day in order to gain 4 lbs of actual fat.
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WinoGelato wrote: »ladyreva78 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ladyreva78 wrote: »Urg. Great... now I want pizza, but there's no way I have the calories for it today. At least, not for an amount that would satisfy me (no way I'm only eating a slice of my yummy, homemade pizza with Gorgonzola, ham, tomato sauce, onions and artichoke hearts). I guess I'll have to plan that for tomorrow.
Would that be considered cheating? If you're planing for it?
Really, what is considered cheating is totally up to the individual. Many of us plan for more indulgent meals on a regular basis (weekly for me) that still enable me to stay within my calorie goal (at maintenance now but also when I was losing) and many (myself included) also believe in working in foods you enjoy on a daily basis and never call it cheating.
Truth be told that's what I do. I failed all previous attempts at losing weight because anything I liked ended up being 'cheating' the diet (overly restrictive diets that hurt to adhere to). There's only so much I can take before I cave in and stuff myself. So now it might take me a few days to manage to budget for it, but I always have the things I like. I'll be having that pizza tomorrow evening. Not getting home till about 9 tonight and I don't plan on waiting till 10 to eat.... On the upside I'll be walking for an hour while waiting for my physiotherapist appointment and I'll be saving those calories for an extra large slice of that pizza!
Sounds like you're on the right track to me!
Thanks! There's so many motivating role models around here that it's not that hard to find the right track.
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WinoGelato wrote: »Well, put it this way - I lost 2.2lb last week, had a bit of a cheat day on Sunday but not massively and on Monday I was up 4.2lb!! So I'm not really in favour of cheat days for me. If it's the weekend/I'm out and about then I'm not going to deprive myself of something but definitely won't be having a day full of unhealthy meals every week just for the sake of it...
I don't advocate having a day of unhealthy meals just for the sake of it
Oh, this is an important point. People are using "cheat day" (or not using it) for all kinds of different things. I think some use it to mean "ate a food I had intended to eliminate even within my calorie goal." Others use it to mean "ate more calories than I normally do" or "ate in a way different from how I normally do."
When I was at a deficit I initially worked in a day where I did a restaurant meal and ate slightly higher calories (I was doing quite low the rest of the week and losing 2 lb overall, and ate higher but still below maintenance on these days). Although I didn't call it a "cheat day," of course, I think this is what a lot of people do think of as a "cheat day" (I'd call it a treat day or higher cal day), and it certainly wasn't eating lots of junk food just for the heck of it (in fact, I think the day overall was plenty healthy.)
Anyway, never affected my weight loss.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.0 -
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cheat meals are not good, it could throw you off your diet for longer than you wanted.2
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I used to live for cheat days, but then I ended up putting so much emphasis on this one day, that once it was over I felt depressed and would end up binge eating for weeks after and re-gaining all the weight back with extras. I now just try to fit in what I want within my 1300 calorie limit. I have had two cheat days since January 1st this year and don't think I'll be having one now for some time. Personally, I wouldn't recommend them. If you feel you have to, either have a cheat meal instead or limit them to a couple of times a year.1
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Cheat MEAL, not day.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
Bit of a cheat day, not massively = 16,000 calories (maintenance + 14,000)? Yeah, I seriously doubt it. I mean, I know you have the best appetite, midwesterner, but it wasn't your post.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
Bit of a cheat day, not massively = 16,000 calories (maintenance + 14,000)? Yeah, I seriously doubt it. I mean, I know you have the best appetite, midwesterner, but it wasn't your post.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it easy to eat a lot.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
Bit of a cheat day, not massively = 16,000 calories (maintenance + 14,000)? Yeah, I seriously doubt it. I mean, I know you have the best appetite, midwesterner, but it wasn't your post.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it easy to eat a lot.
Actually I think you're an outlier. I'm not saying there is no one else who does that, but it is far, far from the norm. Especially to do it more than very occasionally. Most people flat out aren't physically capable of eating the amounts you've posted about at times. Not unless they're throwing up in between. I don't think I even managed it with full on out of control bulimia.8 -
addily1986 wrote: »When starting my diet I thought to myself "I'm not sure I can do this...I need a cheat day." Now my mind is telling me yes cheat day! ...but it's telling me to cheat every day so I'm trying not to listen.
What are other peoples viewpoints on a cheat day?
Dieting is hard work any time of the year you do it. But it feels especially hard for me in the summer because of all the fun social things happening. I mean have you ever tried to float the river without a beer? BORING.
Two points here:
1) It shouldn't be viewed as a diet. It's a lifestyle change. Better eating. More physical activity. Full recording of calories in and calories out, in order to maintain a calorie deficit.
2) To deliberately plan to cheat can't be right in principle. A cheat day is not a good idea, but you may have days where you don't attain your calorie deficit because you were less careful. Then you'd make up for that on another day.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
Bit of a cheat day, not massively = 16,000 calories (maintenance + 14,000)? Yeah, I seriously doubt it. I mean, I know you have the best appetite, midwesterner, but it wasn't your post.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it easy to eat a lot.
Actually I think you're an outlier. I'm not saying there is no one else who does that, but it is far, far from the norm. Especially to do it more than very occasionally. Most people flat out aren't physically capable of eating the amounts you've posted about at times. Not unless they're throwing up in between. I don't think I even managed it with full on out of control bulimia.
I've logged days over 5K, but man did I feel sick.
OP, I don't have "cheat days." I will have over goal days, but I log them and move on. I don't like calling it cheating, as if I'm being bad. I used to do that, and it lead to unnecessary guilt and then shame. Which is just a silly way to be feeling about food, because I'm not really a bad person.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.7 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
Bit of a cheat day, not massively = 16,000 calories (maintenance + 14,000)? Yeah, I seriously doubt it. I mean, I know you have the best appetite, midwesterner, but it wasn't your post.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it easy to eat a lot.
Yeah, those people are competitive eaters. There's not that many of those, they don't do it all the time and not because they feel like it but as the name implies as a competition. There's also some health problems associated with that.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.9 -
To the OPs question - I'm not always successful, but I try to not do "cheat" days or meals, and haven't for some time. I've found that if I budget my calories properly I can leave myself room for whatever snack I may want.
That said, there have been days I've busted my goal by 200 calories or so, but that's not going to destroy my gains for a day or a week etc. I also don't get random temptations that much any more, and I think that's because I allow myself some leeway and do regularly snack.
Heh, I even made a thread recently about cheating lol, when in reality, the extent that I cheat to doesn't have any long term impact on my weight or health.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
The bolded. Relevance is a beautiful thing...3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...3 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
To the OP, my thoughts on cheat days or meals... hmmm... I'm of two minds about this. I've read of a study where there was better dietary compliance among dieters who took the approach of scheduling cheat days or meals (within maintenance range of calories) regularly. So there's some good data supporting the idea.
I've also had personal experience with moderating treats to small portions and there are many who use this approach with great success. I'm currently struggling with being able to do this and am going to employ the scheduled cheat day (hello Christmas) approach for the time being until I can get to the root of what is causing my current problem.
I think there's validity to either approach. I think both are sustainable. I don't think either have long term affects on weight loss. The whole thing about weight management is that it's ongoing and you have to find a balance between losing weight and living life.
4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Indeed...1
This discussion has been closed.
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