Calories vs Macros
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BillMcKay1 wrote: »
So your weights completely stalled at 500 cal deficit? I've been on a 1000cal a day give or take since mid may and my thighs to start were 23inches of flab, they are now 25 and rock solid with muscle. Squats from empty bar to 190lbs yesterday and deads are at 235. Now, granted I am working back to where I used to be 5 years ago at 350lb squats and 400lb deads,but even still, I am putting on muscle quite nicely at 1000 cal a day deficit.
But returning/retraining former athlete/former muscle levels is one of the rare exceptions to the "can't gain muscle in a deficit" rule.
The other being vety small almost immeasurable noob gains...in which I'm counting a half pound.
(How even does one accurately measure a seemingly immeasurable amount such as a half pound??? And this question is from a guy who had a dexa scan just this morning. I'm pretty sure the margin of error even in that has to be somewhere north of a half pound.)1 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »
But returning/retraining former athlete/former muscle levels is one of the rare exceptions to the "can't gain muscle in a deficit" rule.
The other being vety small almost immeasurable noob gains...in which I'm counting a half pound.
(How even does one accurately measure a seemingly immeasurable amount such as a half pound??? And this question is from a guy who had a dexa scan just this morning. I'm pretty sure the margin of error even in that has to be somewhere north of a half pound.)
I should've added that I did previously train and was the leanest I've ever been with decent gains, and my training now is after a break due to illness and injury.0 -
BillMcKay1 wrote: »
So your weights completely stalled at 500 cal deficit? I've been on a 1000cal a day give or take since mid may and my thighs to start were 23inches of flab, they are now 25 and rock solid with muscle. Squats from empty bar to 190lbs yesterday and deads are at 235. Now, granted I am working back to where I used to be 5 years ago at 350lb squats and 400lb deads,but even still, I am putting on muscle quite nicely at 1000 cal a day deficit.
did I say I stalled? no...I made PR's on a regular basis DL 238, Squat 210, BP 145, OHP 105...
But don't confuse strength with muscle....and you are a man correct...women do not have the same capacity to gain muscle like men do...and increase in size of legs may or may not be muscle gain...and at a 1k deficit eh...I would have to see some pretty good studies to show me that can be done...esp since you are not new to lifting...unless of course you are obese now?
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@SezxyStef you didn't once ask me how my PT measured my muscle or fat, nor did you ask me at any point what weights I was lifting - you told me how you assumed he was doing it. And i did actually say all that in another comment quite far up the thread this afternoon, right at the beginning of all this crap. So don't make it look like you were accusing me of BSing just because I didn't answer a question you never asked.
@BillMcKay1 thanks - nice to finally see some decent people on here tonight. And you're right I have just recently started back to weight training and eating clean.
nope not directly ...what I said was " I suspect your PT is using calipers which eh...margin of error is large enough to negate those gains" 2nd post page 1 and you didn't say no we are using X.
as for weight lifted "probably not unless you are new to lifting and doing a progressive load lifting program" which you responded with "intensive heavy weights and low reps 4 times a week for 30 minutes" so since you didn't say well yes I am doing a progressive load lifting program...the logic says you aren't...and since you didn't say why yes I am new to lifting as well...logic says no.
You responded with maybe we are using calipers and a scale and I got a dexa done...no confirmation of how or what...you made the claim I questioned it...it's up to you to provide the info not for me to drag it out.
and above Heybales even added in about Lean body mass vs muscle and mentioned "If the DEXA scan printout gave a figure for Lean Muscle Mass - I'd be very curious."
so whatever..you think what you want to think...I don't have to prove my point.0 -
I was wondering if you have any links to science that backs this up, since fitness and medical professionals I know would disagree with you. It is actually pretty basic science that if you are gaining weight, by definition you are not in a calorie deficit. Some of the things you mentioned can lower your CI causing you to not be in a deficit, but they don't cause your body to create mass out if thin air.
exactly my point.0 -
nope not directly ...what I said was " I suspect your PT is using calipers which eh...margin of error is large enough to negate those gains" 2nd post page 1 and you didn't say no we are using X.
as for weight lifted "probably not unless you are new to lifting and doing a progressive load lifting program" which you responded with "intensive heavy weights and low reps 4 times a week for 30 minutes" so since you didn't say well yes I am doing a progressive load lifting program...the logic says you aren't...and since you didn't say why yes I am new to lifting as well...logic says no.
You responded with maybe we are using calipers and a scale and I got a dexa done...no confirmation of how or what...you made the claim I questioned it...it's up to you to provide the info not for me to drag it out.
and above Heybales even added in about Lean body mass vs muscle and mentioned "If the DEXA scan printout gave a figure for Lean Muscle Mass - I'd be very curious."
so whatever..you think what you want to think...I don't have to prove my point.
@SezxyStef I deliberately didn't tell you exactly what my workouts are, and exactly when I train and exactly what time I took a *kitten* this morning because it's none of your business. You did some guessing and I left you to it, because I could tell from the start no matter what I said you were going to slate me.
As for anyone else leaving comments about anything I said, I stopped reading for a good few hours because I was bored so there's probably quite a few I've missed unless I've been tagged. Oh and I did tell you I was new to training. And I just repeated that above to someone else.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »
But returning/retraining former athlete/former muscle levels is one of the rare exceptions to the "can't gain muscle in a deficit" rule.
The other being vety small almost immeasurable noob gains...in which I'm counting a half pound.
(How even does one accurately measure a seemingly immeasurable amount such as a half pound??? And this question is from a guy who had a dexa scan just this morning. I'm pretty sure the margin of error even in that has to be somewhere north of a half pound.)
hence why I said almost in my original post. There are those who can gain muscle in a deficit...former trained (me but I didn't gain any muscle in a deficit damn it), ,teenage boys (lucky guys), new lifters and the obese...how ever unless it's the teenage boy scenario or obese those gains are measured in oz and are very short lived.
and yes Dexa and calipers and scales typically have a margin of error of 5-7% depending on the application..calipers can be higher if not used correctly and depending on the quality of the product and those scales are just not even funny...1 -
I love how people say one thing, then say something different. It makes it easy to tell who's FOS.
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I should've added that I did previously train and was the leanest I've ever been with decent gains, and my training now is after a break due to illness and injury.
you do realize tho that just because you trained previously doesn't guarantee muscle gains...I am former combat arms in the CF and ex weight lifter myself....and depending on how long the break was will define the amount of muscle you can gain when you pick it back up.
and again...note what else was said...margin of error will wipe out 8oz easy....and lean body mass vs muscle mass are two different things...
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@SezxyStef I deliberately didn't tell you exactly what my workouts are, and exactly when I train and exactly what time I took a *kitten* this morning because it's none of your business. You did some guessing and I left you to it, because I could tell from the start no matter what I said you were going to slate me.
As for anyone else leaving comments about anything I said, I stopped reading for a good few hours because I was bored so there's probably quite a few I've missed unless I've been tagged. Oh and I did tell you I was new to training. And I just repeated that above to someone else.
of course you didn't...because that would negate your 8oz...
as for not reading cause you were bored I thought it was because you were laughing about it at your PT session?
YOu didn't say you were new to training above you said you were "returning"...figure it out new or returning and let us know please...thx.0 -
Sure I will just re-post what I posted elsewhere....
You can easily gain on a deficit if you are not careful by not getting enough sleep, being at a deficit for a long period of time, eating the wrong macro’s for your body type/activity type/activity level, and doing the same exercises over and over. Also stress is a huge reason for a weight gain on a deficit. Or how about thyroid issues.
These are all known things that anyone with any type of background in fitness or nutrition should know. Heck I have even gained muscle on a deficit before back when I was really fit, eating alot of protein, and lifting like crazy with a 500 deficit. It wasn’t a HUGE gain but it was a gain none the less. This of course is proven and is fact in the fitness community. Which I am sure you would also argue that which is fact since you are so much smarter than the rest of the world. <~~Sarcasm
Unfortunately for girls we go into an emergency fat storage mode and start storing fat in our butts, hips, and stomach generally. Guys, generally, get off easy and their fat storage mode just hits their tummy… not fair! Note this is generally as some people gain it elsewhere depending upon your body type. Something I shouldn't have to point out but since I have to point out everything to you I figured I would beat you to that question.
I don't think you are probably going to answer this, but how exactly have you gained muscle eating at a deficit? Or fat for that matter? That is like saying you became rich by spending more than you make every single month...6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
I don't think you are probably going to answer this, but how exactly have you gained muscle eating at a deficit? Or fat for that matter? That is like saying you became rich by spending more than you make every single month...
She said in her other thread (about reverse dieting) a bunch of nonsense about starvation mode and metabolism change. She then posted a study on rats to "prove" her stance, but clearly didn't read it herself as it contradicted her. She is now saying her nutritionist friend is laughing at us...calling bollocks on that. I doubt the friend exists, and if she does exist she is not a genuine board approved nutritionist, because no scientist would come out with this nonsense.
everything she says literally goes against my biomed degree and scientific research.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are changing the subject. You can get stronger and yet not put on muscle mass.
I lost a lot of weight while making huge increases in my lifts (starting from basically nothing). Based on a DEXA when I was about 10 lb overweight and one when I was BMI 22, a period when I ate plenty of protein and made strength increases and ate at about a 1 lb (sometimes a bit more -- which was stupid) deficit, I lost less muscle than one does on average during weight loss, but still lost muscle, didn't gain it.
During the same period I did a challenge at my gym and was told I'd lost weight (true) and gained muscle (false) from the trainer doing one of those impedance things.
I think it's easier for a man to gain muscle, even on a deficit, however, and am not saying anyone did or did not, but I tend to be skeptical (although I understand that as a 40 something woman I am not blessed with the best muscle gaining ability, comparatively).
Anyway, my main point is that looking more muscular and better (which I did) and gaining lots of strength aren't the same thing as gaining muscle. Well, and I wouldn't trust any claim by a PT that I'd lost weight -- they have no idea and PT's don't generally use DEXA. (More important to me, I greatly improved my BF% during the same period,
Last week we had a fairing long thread on this topic with links to recent studies by McGill university on this and their research showed in a controlled study muscle gains on a deficit. The idea you can't gain muscle on a deficit is outdated.2 -
Count your calories. Hit your protein goal though. Eventually you may want to pay more attention to macros, but if it's stressing you out when you first start just remember calories are king. Macros help with satiety, health and fitness, and body composition...they're not something to ignore forever if you have fitness/physique goals.1
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BillMcKay1 wrote: »
Last week we had a fairing long thread on this topic with links to recent studies by McGill university on this and their research showed in a controlled study muscle gains on a deficit. The idea you can't gain muscle on a deficit is outdated.
Do you have a link? I missed that one.2 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »
Do you have a link? I missed that one.
Most know it's not impossible hence why I said almost and made it bold. You can gain muscle on a deficit if one of the following is true.
1. New to lifting however gains are small and short lived
2. Obese
3. Returning to lifting
4. Young male full of testosterone
But a 28 yo woman 150lbs at 5 ft 6 at a 500 a day deficit probably not doing a progressive load lifting program is not going to gain muscle easily even if new or returning since she can't remember if there were gains small and hard to measure0 -
Most know it's not impossible hence why I said almost and made it bold. You can gain muscle on a deficit if one of the following is true.
1. New to lifting however gains are small and short lived
2. Obese
3. Returning to lifting
4. Young male full of testosterone
But a 28 yo woman 150lbs at 5 ft 6 at a 500 a day deficit probably not doing a progressive load lifting program is not going to gain muscle easily even if new or returning since she can't remember if there were gains small and hard to measure
I am familiar with those. I was curious about the study and the comments on the thread mentioned.
I did find the McGill study which followed 40 young males who undertook a very intense exercise regime and low calorie intake (food provided and exercise done in lab). Half had higher protein. The ones win higher protein did gain muscle.
Interesting study. I'd be interested in reading the thread in it.1 -
BillMcKay1 wrote: »
Last week we had a fairing long thread on this topic with links to recent studies by McGill university on this and their research showed in a controlled study muscle gains on a deficit. The idea you can't gain muscle on a deficit is outdated.
I didn't say it was impossible, as I don't believe it is. There's a huge difference between a slight deficit and a 1000 calorie deficit, though, and there are a few situations that make muscle gain more likely, as others have pointed out. What I said is that muscle gain and strength gain are not the same. Your leap from "I did not gain muscle" (as Stef said) to "you made no strength gains at all?" showed a misunderstanding of what was being said.1 -
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/447514/athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet/p1
Not even that new.
But as the comments in that thread rightly point out - the muscle gain came from upper body - not the lower body muscles they already used being athletes.
Though they did get stronger on lower body lifts too - so still increased strength and power.
And notice that even in a study such as this - you'll find references to muscle mass and LBM used interchangeably and incorrectly. So even scientists do it.
What hope do we have on here!
And indeed the point of this study - lower deficit better, or needed, for such gains.1 -
melissa6771 wrote: »@MarianT50 I wasn't going to jump in here but want to say this to you. Ignore it. It's not even worth it. The same thing is said to a LOT of people by the same person. Women can gain .5 pound of muscle per month. Harder in a deficit but possible of you're eating the right stuff. There are world famous trainers that will tell you this and I can assure you they have more knowledge. Proof is in the pictures. Keep up the great work and you do you!
@melissa6771 since you've only been here for what 4-5 months I am glad you have it all figured out....and have what appears to be "followed" me around a bit.
If you had read my original post and the other posts what I said was it is "almost" impossible...guess you missed that part in effort to console.0
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