Allowed to be armed on Campus
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I appreciate the civility of this discussion. That doesn't happen very often in gun debates. Thanks to all of you for your well thought out comments.1
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Just if any didn't know. I'm not anti gun. I believe in the 2nd amendment (and the constitution). With the exception of myself, someone in each of my extended families owns a firearm of some sort. Some with more than others. I trust my DD to be around these family members with a gun in their homes because I know their responsibility level.
My caution comes down to NOT KNOWING the person personally who may have a gun on campus. With no background at all, I would always defer to what would be the worst scenario.
Does stuff happen to people that doesn't involve guns? Absolutely. Car deaths (many due to alcohol) are higher than death by shooting.
If someone was of age to drink alcohol and wanted to get totally drunk and act out, that's fine. It's legal and their choice. But that's not the person I probably want my DD around either.
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There is just no perfect answer!!!! There is no way to protect everyone. If you ban guns then only bad people will have them, but if you allow guns then some good people will make bad decisions. If you make the regulations stricter then there will probably be some loop holes or some people will use different judgement. The way i see it is like this, i can only control what i do. I want to be given the opportunity to be able to protect my family and myself if anything were to happen. So as for me, i am all for the 2nd amendment. i understand that it means some crazy ppl will have this right too, but i can't think about them because i can't control them. I have to do what's right for me.2
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Well, the LEGAL system allows 18 year olds to make an "adult" decision. My point was that at that age, many may/will make decisions that they don't realize the consequence of later.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
Here is where I agree. We're not talking about adults with fully developed brains making decisions while fully understanding the consequences. We're speaking of 18-24 year olds. What if someone is drunk or high? Many times killings happen based on emotional trauma or distress.FridayApril01st2016 wrote: »FridayApril01st2016 wrote: »
He wasn't allowed to be armed yet he was armed how would allowing campus carry change this situation? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.
Obviously the Virginia Tech assailant, planned his crime but if a student with the same motives, doesn't take the opportunity to think twice before acting; an instantaneous decision could occur more often. Meaning that a law abiding/sane student could walk in with no intention of intentionally harming someone but then lose their temper & then do so because of an insult, directed at them.
Also my concern would be, if any gun discharged occurred, even if it was to protect others, who's to say those shots don't injure innocents because they missed the intended target?
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And yet we took 18 year olds and let them die in Afghanistan. I'm not a fan of our age system for criminal responsibility, drinking, etc. and would prefer that we stop taking rights away from adults.
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The LEGAL system is something with which I'm intimately familiar, and the laws that have been enacted that take the basic rights and freedoms from adults based solely on their age are something with which I vehemently disagree. I think it's one of the next areas where we will see activist litigation given the political awareness of our millennials. Hopefully, they will succeed there where my own generation failed.
As for an 18 year old's decision making skills it's highly individual and they obviously are trusted enough to hold a rifle and die. I think we should be able to trust them with beer and a CCP.0 -
I'm all for ownership, legal concealed carry, and even concealed carry in more public place, just as on campus. Statistics show that often these "gun free" zones become target areas for the illegal criminal element and the wack jobs that go on shooting sprees.
That said, I think gun purchase background checks, mandatory training specific to weapons purchased, and retesting should be in place as well. This should include range time and some form of stress fire testing, as well as education of the potential legal and psychological consequences of using deadly force. There are probably legal gun owners out there that I would consider not qualified to be legal gun owners if I made the laws.1 -
In some ways I agree. Kids usually want to do "taboo" things to show the "bad" side of them. Underage drinking is one of them. People also get accustomed easily to environment if it's continuous so if alcohol was available at younger age, it may not be a big deal to drink it.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
Well, the LEGAL system allows 18 year olds to make an "adult" decision. My point was that at that age, many may/will make decisions that they don't realize the consequence of later.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
Here is where I agree. We're not talking about adults with fully developed brains making decisions while fully understanding the consequences. We're speaking of 18-24 year olds. What if someone is drunk or high? Many times killings happen based on emotional trauma or distress.FridayApril01st2016 wrote: »FridayApril01st2016 wrote: »
He wasn't allowed to be armed yet he was armed how would allowing campus carry change this situation? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.
Obviously the Virginia Tech assailant, planned his crime but if a student with the same motives, doesn't take the opportunity to think twice before acting; an instantaneous decision could occur more often. Meaning that a law abiding/sane student could walk in with no intention of intentionally harming someone but then lose their temper & then do so because of an insult, directed at them.
Also my concern would be, if any gun discharged occurred, even if it was to protect others, who's to say those shots don't injure innocents because they missed the intended target?
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And yet we took 18 year olds and let them die in Afghanistan. I'm not a fan of our age system for criminal responsibility, drinking, etc. and would prefer that we stop taking rights away from adults.
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The LEGAL system is something with which I'm intimately familiar, and the laws that have been enacted that take the basic rights and freedoms from adults based solely on their age are something with which I vehemently disagree. I think it's one of the next areas where we will see activist litigation given the political awareness of our millennials. Hopefully, they will succeed there where my own generation failed.
As for an 18 year old's decision making skills it's highly individual and they obviously are trusted enough to hold a rifle and die. I think we should be able to trust them with beer and a CCP.
I don't think there's ever going to be a right answer. Most people are going to go with decisions they feel worked best for them growing up.
Now that I think about it, my dad didn't have a gun in the home. But practically every uncle I did, did. And almost all my cousins do. So I also guess it's what you're accustomed to. I've pondered the thought of having one, but it's never been something I've really thought about.
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Can you say that about ALL people that have guns on a campus legally?I am allowed to carry a concealed firearm in accordance with my states laws. I have proven myself to be free from all violent actions, drug and alcohol chargers, I've never had a warrant out for my arrest, and I've never had a restraining order against me.
I've passed my Background check with my local sheriffs office and I've passed a background check through the FBI.
My Finger Prints are on record with the local PD, Sheriff, and FBI.
My question(s) to you is- Can you say that about everyone else that your DD is hanging around with?
There are lot of people who are this way who aren't armed.[*] Why would you want your DD not around someone who has proven themselves to be an upstanding citizen in society.
It sounds great on paper. Still have to weigh in on the actual consequences though.and with ISIS attacks being up, lone wolf attacks being up, why wouldn't you want armed good guys around to help stomp these terrorist back into the sandholes from which they came.
My cousin is a strong gun advocate. Had a high security job at LLNL where he carried an M-16. Has a concealed permit to carry in CA. Has YET to confront anyone carrying a firearm or threat as a civilian. And believe me, he's itching for his chance to do it. So couldn't something go wrong here and if so, could it happen to an innocent?
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Can I say that about all people on Campus who can legally carry a concealed weapon? No. I am not sure what is required in all 50 states. I can tell you that that person had to pass certain requires to legally obtain a Permit/License for a Concealed Handgun. I can tell you in every state that requires a permit, they've had to prove themselves as a lifetime upstanding citizen.
I believe it could happen to the innocent. I've had two cases where I've had to un-holster my pistol in self defense. But I've never pointed the gun at anyone. 1) I had some low level drug dealers making advancements because I witness them slinging dope. 2) I was in downtown Indianapolis and some bum walked up to my family and asked if we had any money. We told him no. He pulled a knife and asked if out life was worth a few bucks, So I un-holstered my glock and asked him if it was worth his.... Needless to say he walked away.0 -
My wife and I both have our carry permits to obtain these we had to submit paperwork to our county sheriff and he checked our reference and ran an fbi background check on us. The same check that is run on anyone who purchases a firearm from a gun store. people under the age of 21 are not permitted to purchase a pistol and I can't think of any states that issue cary permits to under 21 individuals. So most likely we are looking at a college senior here who should be able by that point in their life to make good well thought out adult decisions.
I don't think that a firearm is a magical end all cure and save your life talisman but it does turn you from helpless into being able to fight back. I would want my child either son or daughter to be able to defend themselves from someone who wants to do them harm and I just don't think that a rape whistle or peeing down your leg is enough to stop evil.2 -
They've only proven that they aren't a threat at that time. The likelihood of them ever losing it is probably low, but it only takes one time. And we've seen it happen, so I can't just look past it. IMO, if you have the chance of avoiding an incident that may happen where you have control, then you take it.
Can you say that about ALL people that have guns on a campus legally?I am allowed to carry a concealed firearm in accordance with my states laws. I have proven myself to be free from all violent actions, drug and alcohol chargers, I've never had a warrant out for my arrest, and I've never had a restraining order against me.
I've passed my Background check with my local sheriffs office and I've passed a background check through the FBI.
My Finger Prints are on record with the local PD, Sheriff, and FBI.
My question(s) to you is- Can you say that about everyone else that your DD is hanging around with?
There are lot of people who are this way who aren't armed.[*] Why would you want your DD not around someone who has proven themselves to be an upstanding citizen in society.
It sounds great on paper. Still have to weigh in on the actual consequences though.and with ISIS attacks being up, lone wolf attacks being up, why wouldn't you want armed good guys around to help stomp these terrorist back into the sandholes from which they came.
My cousin is a strong gun advocate. Had a high security job at LLNL where he carried an M-16. Has a concealed permit to carry in CA. Has YET to confront anyone carrying a firearm or threat as a civilian. And believe me, he's itching for his chance to do it. So couldn't something go wrong here and if so, could it happen to an innocent?
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Can I say that about all people on Campus who can legally carry a concealed weapon? No. I am not sure what is required in all 50 states. I can tell you that that person had to pass certain requires to legally obtain a Permit/License for a Concealed Handgun. I can tell you in every state that requires a permit, they've had to prove themselves as a lifetime upstanding citizen.
Justifiable reason to pull out your gun. There will be times that someone who carries WILL prevent a crime or protect their family. Again, I'm just thinking of what may happen with concealed weapons on campus when speaking of possible innocents that may get injured.I believe it could happen to the innocent. I've had two cases where I've had to un-holster my pistol in self defense. But I've never pointed the gun at anyone. 1) I had some low level drug dealers making advancements because I witness them slinging dope. 2) I was in downtown Indianapolis and some bum walked up to my family and asked if we had any money. We told him no. He pulled a knife and asked if out life was worth a few bucks, So I un-holstered my glock and asked him if it was worth his.... Needless to say he walked away.
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Legit. And they may be the most responsible person out there. But just a possible scenario: person attends a party, gets smashed and someone lifts his gun off of him to "play around". Now back in my day, I've been to parties like this (albeit not a college party). It only takes a moment (and I'm sure we can agree on this) for something tragic to happen if that trigger is pulled, even by accident.lsutton484 wrote: »My wife and I both have our carry permits to obtain these we had to submit paperwork to our county sheriff and he checked our reference and ran an fbi background check on us. The same check that is run on anyone who purchases a firearm from a gun store. people under the age of 21 are not permitted to purchase a pistol and I can't think of any states that issue cary permits to under 21 individuals. So most likely we are looking at a college senior here who should be able by that point in their life to make good well thought out adult decisions.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. I even think that restraining orders are pretty useless when it comes to people who aggressively stalk. So yes there are instances that people should be able to protect themselves with a firearm. I just think we have to look at ALL avenues of safety first. Like magnetically locking classroom doors with bullet proof glass. Or personnel on campus that's alert and ready to deal with it (something my above mentioned cousin does now at Stanford). I don't know or have all the answers. I just believe that if firearms were allowed on a campus, that would not be the campus my daughter would attend.I don't think that a firearm is a magical end all cure and save your life talisman but it does turn you from helpless into being able to fight back. I would want my child either son or daughter to be able to defend themselves from someone who wants to do them harm and I just don't think that a rape whistle or peeing down your leg is enough to stop evil.
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I'm firmly on the side of self defense. Popular/unpopular, good, bad, or ugly you better believe I am armed and can shoot straight, so is my husband, my kids who are over 21.... And my DD will be getting hers at 21 as well. It may not prevent evil but at least if evil finds us... We wont be a sitting ducks. The criminals shouldn't be the only ones armed in my opinion.3
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Legit. And they may be the most responsible person out there. But just a possible scenario: person attends a party, gets smashed and someone lifts his gun off of him to "play around". Now back in my day, I've been to parties like this (albeit not a college party). It only takes a moment (and I'm sure we can agree on this) for something tragic to happen if that trigger is pulled, even by accident.lsutton484 wrote: »My wife and I both have our carry permits to obtain these we had to submit paperwork to our county sheriff and he checked our reference and ran an fbi background check on us. The same check that is run on anyone who purchases a firearm from a gun store. people under the age of 21 are not permitted to purchase a pistol and I can't think of any states that issue cary permits to under 21 individuals. So most likely we are looking at a college senior here who should be able by that point in their life to make good well thought out adult decisions.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. I even think that restraining orders are pretty useless when it comes to people who aggressively stalk. So yes there are instances that people should be able to protect themselves with a firearm. I just think we have to look at ALL avenues of safety first. Like magnetically locking classroom doors with bullet proof glass. Or personnel on campus that's alert and ready to deal with it (something my above mentioned cousin does now at Stanford). I don't know or have all the answers. I just believe that if firearms were allowed on a campus, that would not be the campus my daughter would attend.I don't think that a firearm is a magical end all cure and save your life talisman but it does turn you from helpless into being able to fight back. I would want my child either son or daughter to be able to defend themselves from someone who wants to do them harm and I just don't think that a rape whistle or peeing down your leg is enough to stop evil.
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In most areas drinking while in possession of a firearm on ones person is illegal and in some of those areas being in a bar or even a restaurant that serves is a violation of the law which would tend to remove those life long good citizens who get their carry permit from getting themselves in that situation.
Plus we aren't just talking about adults that attend the college we could be talking about college staff or anyone who has business on campus.1 -
people's "feelings of comfort" should NEVER trump rights to self-defense. Ever.7
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They've only proven that they aren't a threat at that time. The likelihood of them ever losing it is probably low, but it only takes one time. And we've seen it happen, so I can't just look past it. IMO, if you have the chance of avoiding an incident that may happen where you have control, then you take it.
Can you say that about ALL people that have guns on a campus legally?I am allowed to carry a concealed firearm in accordance with my states laws. I have proven myself to be free from all violent actions, drug and alcohol chargers, I've never had a warrant out for my arrest, and I've never had a restraining order against me.
I've passed my Background check with my local sheriffs office and I've passed a background check through the FBI.
My Finger Prints are on record with the local PD, Sheriff, and FBI.
My question(s) to you is- Can you say that about everyone else that your DD is hanging around with?
There are lot of people who are this way who aren't armed.[*] Why would you want your DD not around someone who has proven themselves to be an upstanding citizen in society.
It sounds great on paper. Still have to weigh in on the actual consequences though.and with ISIS attacks being up, lone wolf attacks being up, why wouldn't you want armed good guys around to help stomp these terrorist back into the sandholes from which they came.
My cousin is a strong gun advocate. Had a high security job at LLNL where he carried an M-16. Has a concealed permit to carry in CA. Has YET to confront anyone carrying a firearm or threat as a civilian. And believe me, he's itching for his chance to do it. So couldn't something go wrong here and if so, could it happen to an innocent?
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Can I say that about all people on Campus who can legally carry a concealed weapon? No. I am not sure what is required in all 50 states. I can tell you that that person had to pass certain requires to legally obtain a Permit/License for a Concealed Handgun. I can tell you in every state that requires a permit, they've had to prove themselves as a lifetime upstanding citizen.
Justifiable reason to pull out your gun. There will be times that someone who carries WILL prevent a crime or protect their family. Again, I'm just thinking of what may happen with concealed weapons on campus when speaking of possible innocents that may get injured.I believe it could happen to the innocent. I've had two cases where I've had to un-holster my pistol in self defense. But I've never pointed the gun at anyone. 1) I had some low level drug dealers making advancements because I witness them slinging dope. 2) I was in downtown Indianapolis and some bum walked up to my family and asked if we had any money. We told him no. He pulled a knife and asked if out life was worth a few bucks, So I un-holstered my glock and asked him if it was worth his.... Needless to say he walked away.
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99.9% of the people who are involved in a Mass Murder will hit the ground when shots ring out. Those with a CHL will be the only one popping heads up to take shots at said shooter.
And I hate to say this, but would you rather have the chances of someone getting wounded from stray round, or through a wall. Or would you rather have the chances of the number of people killed our wounded in excess of what we really want to think about.....0 -
Well no I don't believe that. Most people will try to run. And that's going to be more that just .1% Sitting there laying on the ground would make them an easier target from a person walking around looking to shoot someone.
They've only proven that they aren't a threat at that time. The likelihood of them ever losing it is probably low, but it only takes one time. And we've seen it happen, so I can't just look past it. IMO, if you have the chance of avoiding an incident that may happen where you have control, then you take it.
Can you say that about ALL people that have guns on a campus legally?I am allowed to carry a concealed firearm in accordance with my states laws. I have proven myself to be free from all violent actions, drug and alcohol chargers, I've never had a warrant out for my arrest, and I've never had a restraining order against me.
I've passed my Background check with my local sheriffs office and I've passed a background check through the FBI.
My Finger Prints are on record with the local PD, Sheriff, and FBI.
My question(s) to you is- Can you say that about everyone else that your DD is hanging around with?
There are lot of people who are this way who aren't armed.[*] Why would you want your DD not around someone who has proven themselves to be an upstanding citizen in society.
It sounds great on paper. Still have to weigh in on the actual consequences though.and with ISIS attacks being up, lone wolf attacks being up, why wouldn't you want armed good guys around to help stomp these terrorist back into the sandholes from which they came.
My cousin is a strong gun advocate. Had a high security job at LLNL where he carried an M-16. Has a concealed permit to carry in CA. Has YET to confront anyone carrying a firearm or threat as a civilian. And believe me, he's itching for his chance to do it. So couldn't something go wrong here and if so, could it happen to an innocent?
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Can I say that about all people on Campus who can legally carry a concealed weapon? No. I am not sure what is required in all 50 states. I can tell you that that person had to pass certain requires to legally obtain a Permit/License for a Concealed Handgun. I can tell you in every state that requires a permit, they've had to prove themselves as a lifetime upstanding citizen.
Justifiable reason to pull out your gun. There will be times that someone who carries WILL prevent a crime or protect their family. Again, I'm just thinking of what may happen with concealed weapons on campus when speaking of possible innocents that may get injured.I believe it could happen to the innocent. I've had two cases where I've had to un-holster my pistol in self defense. But I've never pointed the gun at anyone. 1) I had some low level drug dealers making advancements because I witness them slinging dope. 2) I was in downtown Indianapolis and some bum walked up to my family and asked if we had any money. We told him no. He pulled a knife and asked if out life was worth a few bucks, So I un-holstered my glock and asked him if it was worth his.... Needless to say he walked away.
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99.9% of the people who are involved in a Mass Murder will hit the ground when shots ring out. Those with a CHL will be the only one popping heads up to take shots at said shooter.
Of course the least casualties is what one would want. There's no easy answer to what happens with mass shootings since we never know when or where they are going to happen. We may get hints by people's behaviors, but unfortunately those behaviors don't always appear when they get their hands on firearms.And I hate to say this, but would you rather have the chances of someone getting wounded from stray round, or through a wall. Or would you rather have the chances of the number of people killed our wounded in excess of what we really want to think about.....
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August 1st, University of Texas has allowed concealed carry for students.
A good point was brought up by a friend of mine who is former SWAT in SF. He's a gun advocate, but doesn't think that concealed carry is a good idea on campus even if the students are highly trained (which unless they have been in a situation like that, you can't assess). If a shooting comes about, and say 20 students decide to defend and SWAT gets their quick, any one of those 20 students could get taken down by SWAT because they have no idea who the shooter is. It also delays them from trying to stop the issue because they won't know how many shooters are actually involved. And if a students accidentally gets shot at (because SWAT doesn't know if that student is involved or not) and returns fire mistakenly believing he's be shot at by the shooter (along with others who might not see it's SWAT), they could all get taken down.
Just something to think about.
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