Eating Clean - No Such Thing

Achrya

At the end of the day, your body needs certain amounts of a variety of different nutrients to maintain healthy skin, hair, internal organ and bodily functions, bones, and muscle. These nutrients are demonstrated to aid immune response and prevent medical conditions (vitamin C - and scurvy for example).

If you can get all the nutrients you need to reach your overall health goals, while staying within your caloric budget for you desired weight objectives then you will be successful.

To state that over the long term the nutritional value of the food you eat is not a factor in your overall health (not just weight loss) is ridiculous.

That's why I take a multi every morning. I also get a fair amount of veggies (Why, I'm throwing corn into a pot of chili tonight, I put spinach in my curry, and I'm throwing some thinly sliced eggplant in my lasagna.) and I eat fruit as well.

magerum

At the end of the day, your body needs certain amounts of a variety of different nutrients to maintain healthy skin, hair, internal organ and bodily functions, bones, and muscle. These nutrients are demonstrated to aid immune response and prevent medical conditions (vitamin C - and scurvy for example).

If you can get all the nutrients you need to reach your overall health goals, while staying within your caloric budget for you desired weight objectives then you will be successful.

To state that over the long term the nutritional value of the food you eat is not a factor in your overall health (not just weight loss) is ridiculous.

To quote a well regarded "expert" in the industry, Eric Helms:

"Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! "

FitnessBeverlyHills

All I know is, after reading these myriad threads on the clean-eating wars, that MFP is not a place where you will be supported in doing what works for you. If I am eating in a way that is different from you, I suppose I should keep that to myself before I am attacked for being ignorant and told that I should do it a different way. Better I close my diary before someone discovers that I lean towards clean eating or that I eat too dirty. Why is this a "debate"?

^^^ This.

(And as far as I can tell, it would be a mistake to call this a 'debate.' It seems like bunch of very, very determined people talking at or passed one another with the belief that if they repeat something just one more time they'll 'win.')

What it's really about is helping people succeed. I see four things that disturb me:

1) People that are new and under the impression that they need to "eat clean" in order to achieve their goals. These people often decide to completely abstain from many of their favorite foods and therefore often become 2s.

2) People that have gained back weight that they have previously lost because they made unsustainable changes in their diet. They eventually gave in to their desires and indulged in a banned food, feel they have failed themselves, and rapidly fall back into their old eating patterns and put the weight right back on.

3) People who have had some success eating clean but still have a lot of weight to lose and are excited about their changes and progress. These people are often the most vocal about the benefits of clean eating and the quickest to deny the successes others have had without eating clean.

4) Relatively elite people who are often professionals of some kind in the industry who stand to make money by selling their methods and results. They often use fear tactics to scare people into "clean."

I know its a crazy concept, but sometimes people actually care about what they decide to put into their bodies. A lot of people don't want to survive on just protein bars and fast food everyday, or sustain themselves on a protein bar just so they have enough calories to eat some Wendy's. I'm sure I'll be attacked for this statement but weight loss in not always everyones only goal. You can be skinny and still be "unhealthy".

I realize you can meet your macros on fast food, but is there any emphasis at all on getting a proper amount of nutrients and vitamins, besides the ones you get from your multi vitamin in the morning or protein shake?

Please read:This is more directed to the poster above after reading his food dairy.

This is about giving people the freedom to eat the foods they love and feel good about it.

As opposed to your approach which is to make them so scared of this toxic food that they feel like failures for eating something not "clean."

Thats not really "My Approach" at all. I don't tell anyone to NEVER eat fast food, but I would advice against not eating it everyday because its not the most nutrients dense food and I think aside from obtaining your macro's, its also important to get nutrients and vitamins through your food. I personally think there is a lot to be said for getting nutrients and vitamins from actual food sources than just taking a multi vitamin as an excuse to not put any fruits and vegetables in your diet. If anything my approach is a well balanced diet. I consume food that is not so nutrients dense probably 90% of the time, but I also make sure I eat enough fruits, vegetables, fish, meats, legumes, nuts ect.. to get my vitamins and nutrients. Not to mention if I ate that much fast food I would be sick to my stomach and be sluggish all day.

Now the entire Mcdonalds thing is just its own issue. This is why I refer to Mcdonalds burgers as not real food, I'll stick to some In and Out burger

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/31/10282876-mcdonalds-drops-use-of-gooey-ammonia-based-pink-slime-in-hamburger-meat?lite

Major typo that should have been "I eat foods that are not so nutrient dense 10% of the time" not 90%

ok continue with the debate

for the record the majority of the ingredients in a pop-tart I would rather not consume all the time, but if I have one its not going to kill be or side track my health. If you know about the ingredients list on a package, which I'm sure you do, you know they list ingredients from highest to lowest.

A food item thats primarily made of Enriched Flour, Corn syrup, and high fructose corn syrup is probably not the most nutrient dense food. Again all the vitamins listed are all enriched into the food because if they didn't go through an enrichment process there would actually be NO nutrients in them. I would prefer to consume food sources that factories don't need to fortify with vitamins. I don;t think anyone is denying that its "food" just not the most nutrient dense food. Some people eat the foam inside their couches and some on this board might argue that its food, but is it really the best option?

This is what drives me nuts about the IIFYM crowd, not all but some, have a hard time admitting that some foods are more nutrient dense than others. Just because you can eat glue and call it food by your definition or some Pink Slime Patty, doesn't mean its exactly the best choice. No one expects perfection or for you to eat perfect 100% of the time, but why argue with someone because they prefer to eat fruits, veggies, and foods closer to their natural state? Just because they call it "clean"? Its just a term.

bcattoes

My guess is she is just not expressing herself well. If she understand clean eating then she meant man-made chemicals rather than the natural chemical make-up of foods. Food additives. These things are not clean.

So if 'man' makes a chemical that's in EVERY way identical to one found in 'nature', would it still be 'dirty' and not to be used?

I've actually never heard the term 'dirty food' outside MFP. But you are correct. Man-made is not natural, so man-made is not clean. Everything from the food replicator on Star Trek - not clean.

jonnythan

All I know is, after reading these myriad threads on the clean-eating wars, that MFP is not a place where you will be supported in doing what works for you. If I am eating in a way that is different from you, I suppose I should keep that to myself before I am attacked for being ignorant and told that I should do it a different way. Better I close my diary before someone discovers that I lean towards clean eating or that I eat too dirty. Why is this a "debate"?

^^^ This.

(And as far as I can tell, it would be a mistake to call this a 'debate.' It seems like bunch of very, very determined people talking at or passed one another with the belief that if they repeat something just one more time they'll 'win.')

What it's really about is helping people succeed. I see four things that disturb me:

1) People that are new and under the impression that they need to "eat clean" in order to achieve their goals. These people often decide to completely abstain from many of their favorite foods and therefore often become 2s.

2) People that have gained back weight that they have previously lost because they made unsustainable changes in their diet. They eventually gave in to their desires and indulged in a banned food, feel they have failed themselves, and rapidly fall back into their old eating patterns and put the weight right back on.

3) People who have had some success eating clean but still have a lot of weight to lose and are excited about their changes and progress. These people are often the most vocal about the benefits of clean eating and the quickest to deny the successes others have had without eating clean.

4) Relatively elite people who are often professionals of some kind in the industry who stand to make money by selling their methods and results. They often use fear tactics to scare people into "clean."

I know its a crazy concept, but sometimes people actually care about what they decide to put into their bodies. A lot of people don't want to survive on just protein bars and fast food everyday, or sustain themselves on a protein bar just so they have enough calories to eat some Wendy's. I'm sure I'll be attacked for this statement but weight loss in not always everyones only goal. You can be skinny and still be "unhealthy".

I realize you can meet your macros on fast food, but is there any emphasis at all on getting a proper amount of nutrients and vitamins, besides the ones you get from your multi vitamin in the morning or protein shake?

Please read:This is more directed to the poster above after reading his food dairy.

This is about giving people the freedom to eat the foods they love and feel good about it.

As opposed to your approach which is to make them so scared of this toxic food that they feel like failures for eating something not "clean."

Thats not really "My Approach" at all. I don't tell anyone to NEVER eat fast food, but I would advice against not eating it everyday because its not the most nutrients dense food and I think aside from obtaining your macro's, its also important to get nutrients and vitamins through your food. I personally think there is a lot to be said for getting nutrients and vitamins from actual food sources than just taking a multi vitamin as an excuse to not put any fruits and vegetables in your diet. If anything my approach is a well balanced diet. I consume food that is not so nutrients dense probably 90% of the time, but I also make sure I eat enough fruits, vegetables, fish, meats, legumes, nuts ect.. to get my vitamins and nutrients. Not to mention if I ate that much fast food I would be sick to my stomach and be sluggish all day.

Now the entire Mcdonalds thing is just its own issue. This is why I refer to Mcdonalds burgers as not real food, I'll stick to some In and Out burger

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/31/10282876-mcdonalds-drops-use-of-gooey-ammonia-based-pink-slime-in-hamburger-meat?lite

Major typo that should have been "I eat foods that are not so nutrient dense 10% of the time" not 90%

ok continue with the debate

for the record the majority of the ingredients in a pop-tart I would rather not consume all the time, but if I have one its not going to kill be or side track my health. If you know about the ingredients list on a package, which I'm sure you do, you know they list ingredients from highest to lowest.

A food item thats primarily made of Enriched Flour, Corn syrup, and high fructose corn syrup is probably not the most nutrient dense food. Again all the vitamins listed are all enriched into the food because if they didn't go through an enrichment process there would actually be NO nutrients in them. I would prefer to consume food sources that factories don't need to fortify with vitamins. I don;t think anyone is denying that its "food" just not the most nutrient dense food. Some people eat the foam inside their couches and some on this board might argue that its food, but is it really the best option?

This is what drives me nuts about the IIFYM crowd, not all but some, have a hard time admitting that some foods are more nutrient dense than others. Just because you can eat glue and call it food by your definition or some Pink Slime Patty, doesn't mean its exactly the best choice. No one expects perfection or for you to eat perfect 100% of the time, but why argue with someone because they prefer to eat fruits, veggies, and foods closer to their natural state? Just because they call it "clean"? Its just a term.

Some foods are more nutrient-dense than others.

I don't have a problem saying that. It's true. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it wasn't.

We recommend eating nutrient-dense foods. When I give recommendations, I specifically recommend people get several servings of veggies and fruits every day.

No problem there.

Where we differ is that I think it's totally fine to fill the rest of your calories with any food you like that gets you to your daily nutritional goals. Those goals can, and should, include things like fiber, protein, fat, and vitamin and mineral goals.

Also, no one has any problem with people that prefer to eat foods "closer to their natural state." The problem is when people try to convince others that this way is necessary for weight loss/fitness/health.

Timshel_

Timshel_

Timshel_

Timshel_

jonnythan

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. I have no problem with people who want to eat this way, but to come on the site and tell people that they need to eat this way is just bad.

Timshel_

dbmata

I think we can all agree, if they haven't had a shower today, don't eat what they got.

Achrya

No bacon? No go.

Carnivor0us

Those things are all minor snacks.

Timshel_

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. I have no problem with people who want to eat this way, but to come on the site and tell people that they need to eat this way is just bad.

Maybe would could just change the word clean to healthier, or nutritious, or natural, or ???

iarelarry

Eating dirty is the only way to eat, bro

Timshel_

Timshel_

Would this be eating clean, or just eating dirty?

Got ya thinking, amiright?

magerum

^ THIS is the problem. That is rediculous. Stuff like that is spreading nonsense to the general community, which includes a very large number of forum lurkers. There is no reason to avoid white flour or white sugar.

ETA:

Or anything else on that list, just picking out the two that really bug me on it.

jonnythan

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. I have no problem with people who want to eat this way, but to come on the site and tell people that they need to eat this way is just bad.

Maybe would could just change the word clean to healthier, or nutritious, or natural, or ???

The wording doesn't matter. Any message that demonizes certain foods as bad or incompatible with their fitness and health goals is a bad message that sets people up for failure.

antonjanik

There is no such thing as "clean" food? Eating clean just means eating foods that are as close to their natural state as possible. It excludes fast foods, processed foods, etc. That's all. It really is a term.

Exactly. Just like the phrase "eating low on the food chain." It is a helpful euphamism that explains in a short phrase, your approach to diet. I eat low on the food chain.

IMHO, fast food is crap. It is made from crap, and makes you feel like crap. It is pumped full of flavorizers and salt. There is no merit to its calories. It is merely pablum for the masticating masses.

My body deserves much better.

A.

dbmata

Eat it durty

dbmata

My body deserves much better.

QFT.

Some people don't believe they deserve better.

jonnythan

IMHO, fast food is crap. It is made from crap, and makes you feel like crap. It is pumped full of flavorizers and salt. There is no merit to its calories. It is merely pablum for the masticating masses.

My body deserves much better.

A.

If it makes YOU feel like crap you should say "it makes me feel like crap."

Don't tell me how it makes ME feel.

Thanks!

Timshel_

It's really just semantics.

meh.

LAW_714

I don't tell anyone to NEVER eat fast food, but I would advice against not eating it everyday because its not the most nutrients dense food and I think aside from obtaining your macro's, its also important to get nutrients and vitamins through your food. {...}

This is what drives me nuts about the IIFYM crowd, not all but some, have a hard time admitting that some foods are more nutrient dense than others. Just because you can eat glue and call it food by your definition or some Pink Slime Patty, doesn't mean its exactly the best choice. No one expects perfection or for you to eat perfect 100% of the time, but why argue with someone because they prefer to eat fruits, veggies, and foods closer to their natural state? Just because they call it "clean"? Its just a term.

Some foods are more nutrient-dense than others.

I don't have a problem saying that. It's true. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it wasn't.

We recommend eating nutrient-dense foods. When I give recommendations, I specifically recommend people get several servings of veggies and fruits every day.

No problem there.{...}

Where we differ is that I think it's totally fine to fill the rest of your calories with any food you like that gets you to your daily nutritional goals. Those goals can, and should, include things like fiber, protein, fat, and vitamin and mineral goals.

Also, no one has any problem with people that prefer to eat foods "closer to their natural state."

Halleluja!

The Venn diagram of the perpetual Clean/IIFYM "debate" has an ephemeral glimpse of consensus and overlap. Not that it'll stop the pie fight...

Wetcoaster

From an interview with Alan Agaron


Q - Alan, what is your general philosophy on food sources regardless if the individuals is in a caloric surplus or deficit, the phrase “Clean Eating” is thrown around a lot. Could you shed some light on research or any information regarding utilizing different sources that may be considered bad and the impact it may/may not have on body composition?



A - You know that the cleanest food in the world is? Hydrogenated vegetable oil. It was originally developed for the purpose of making soap. Pretty damn clean, I’d say. On a more serious note, the “clean” label is very misleading when applied to individual foods. There’s no way a food can be judged in isolation from the rest of the diet. To give an example, most people would call celery a “clean” or healthy food, and ice cream a “dirty” or unhealthy food. In the far-fetched/hypothetical scenario of being forced to choose only one of those foods to survive on, guess which one would sustain your health (and ultimately your life) longer? Hopefully you chose ice cream over celery, unless you’re anxious to knock on Heaven’s door. The point is, labeling foods as clean or dirty ignores context, and ignoring context is just plain dumb. I think that’s it’s intuitively obvious that the diet should consist mostly of whole & minimally refined foods. But still, it’s not all that simple, since certain foods are significantly altered from their original state (i.e., whey protein powder), but still have positive impacts on health. I wrote an in-depth article on the “clean eating” topic here. It’s a long article but worth the read for anyone interested. I think it’s been very amusing to see the definition of “clean” vary widely according to highly subjective criteria.

_chiaroscuro

Exactly. Just like the phrase "eating low on the food chain." It is a helpful euphamism that explains in a short phrase, your approach to diet. I eat low on the food chain.

IMHO, fast food is crap. It is made from crap, and makes you feel like crap. It is pumped full of flavorizers and salt. There is no merit to its calories. It is merely pablum for the masticating masses.

My body deserves much better.

A.

jonnythan

It's really just semantics.

meh.

No.

No, it's not semantics.

It's people like you saying that certain foods or ingredients are flat-out bad when they're not. The message you are spreading here is literally responsible for so many failed attempts to lose weight it's ridiculous.

Timshel_

Since the word "Crap" was brought up.