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Losing weight and adding muscle at the same time?
errollmaclean
Posts: 562 Member
in Debate Club
So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
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Replies
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Good question- I've been wondering this exact same thing. To me, there is already a caloric surplus if we are carrying body fat. I await responses...0
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I've read this twice and I'm so dense I still can't remember exactly what it says, but I think it addresses what you are talking about.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/2 -
I think this will answer your question http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/
Yeah, I've read that before. It doesn't really address anything other than general knowledge. I’m more curious about a detailed answer as to what's going on.1 -
arditarose wrote: »I've read this twice and I'm so dense I still can't remember exactly what it says, but I think it addresses what you are talking about.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
arditarose as always, you're impressive AND awesome!! Thanks!! If I'm reading it right, it seems to say it is possible?0 -
http://shreddedbyscience.com/podcast/ They've got a podcast too!!1
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errollmaclean wrote: »http://shreddedbyscience.com/podcast/ They've got a podcast too!!
Yeah of course. Great podcast. @SideSteel is on the fireside chat episodes.2 -
errollmaclean wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I've read this twice and I'm so dense I still can't remember exactly what it says, but I think it addresses what you are talking about.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
arditarose as always, you're impressive AND awesome!! Thanks!! If I'm reading it right, it seems to say it is possible?
Yes. That's what I got from it. lol. I struggle in the sciences.1 -
arditarose wrote: »errollmaclean wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I've read this twice and I'm so dense I still can't remember exactly what it says, but I think it addresses what you are talking about.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
arditarose as always, you're impressive AND awesome!! Thanks!! If I'm reading it right, it seems to say it is possible?
Yes. That's what I got from it. lol. I struggle in the sciences.
Lol, I was hoping you'd explain it to me.0 -
Maybe I'll call a few smarties up in here to give us cliffs2
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Haha, do we get gold stars if we got the answer right!?0
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errollmaclean wrote: »Haha, do we get gold stars if we got the answer right!?
No...you gain .25lbs of muscle while losing fat if you get it right4 -
LMAO
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arditarose wrote: »errollmaclean wrote: »http://shreddedbyscience.com/podcast/ They've got a podcast too!!
Yeah of course. Great podcast. @SideSteel is on the fireside chat episodes.
Thanks for the mention.
Lawrence and I will probably be recording another one this week, and we have a few good upcoming ideas
We will be discussing coaching sometime soon.0 -
errollmaclean wrote: »So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
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But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
While the building blocks of muscle are amino acids, in order for them to grow energy (ie. calories) is required which is why protein is important but overall caloric intake is more so when building muscle. Actually carb intake during a bulk is essential for optimum growth as insulin (in response to glucose) helps the signalling pathways to create muscle, again explaining why those overweight individuals with insulin resistance who have insulin floating around are more likely to create muscle in a deficit. (science nerds and anyone interested can have a read here: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3376019/ )
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errollmaclean wrote: »So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
So you definitely can gain muscle in a deficit, but not to the extent that you can in surplus, and not as efficiently. And even then, a recomp would be even more efficient due to the increase in available energy. Of course this is completely predicated on several things: current body composition, training stimulate, macronutrient composition (low carb/keto makes it a low hard due to the down-regulation in testosterone/insulin IIRC), genetics, age, returning to training, etc..
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Not being able to gain in a deficit is the general rule, but it's not hard in fast. Train hard enough, get enough protein and keep your overall deficit slight and it can be done. Throughout the day, our body is in a deficit and surplus based on meals. Haven't eaten in 9 hours after sleep? You are in a deficit. Eat a 1000 calorie meal at lunch? You are in a surplus. How much you gain and how slow it will be and how to "perfect" it is the hard part.0
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errollmaclean wrote: »So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
You can build muscle in a deficit. Not efficiently and not as well as a surplus. Results are actually pretty decent in obese untrained individuals as per this study from MacMasters Uni study.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160127132741.htm
The more trained you get and fitter you get the less efficient it is until it basically isn't worth the effort. But for many people here starting with a lot of weight to lose and fairly untrained, they can and will add muscle while in a deficit with sufficient protein and on a good progressively loading resistance training program.
Here is a decent vid from ERic Helms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_wQq8M3Q 1 -
May I ask a question that is related to this thread? I am a new fat burn beginner, and I have been completing crossfit sessions M-W-F, and about an hour of moderate cardio 4-5 days a week. I have seen some muscle growth and some fat loss, but it is of course slow. I am totally ok with that. My question is: if I maintain this routine, eating at a moderate deficit, can I assume I will eventually see the muscle growth slow and stop at a place where I will maintain it, and the fat loss continue? Is that reasonable? I want to lose about 20lbs, but I also want to tone. I don't want to stop crossfit completely to work solely on fat loss, because I love it, but I want to make sure I am understanding the process correctly. So I should be able to continue crossfit in order to maintain the muscle I have gained, continue to see fat loss with the continued exercise and caloric deficit?
Thank you!0 -
May I ask a question that is related to this thread? I am a new fat burn beginner, and I have been completing crossfit sessions M-W-F, and about an hour of moderate cardio 4-5 days a week. I have seen some muscle growth and some fat loss, but it is of course slow. I am totally ok with that. My question is: if I maintain this routine, eating at a moderate deficit, can I assume I will eventually see the muscle growth slow and stop at a place where I will maintain it, and the fat loss continue? Is that reasonable? I want to lose about 20lbs, but I also want to tone. I don't want to stop crossfit completely to work solely on fat loss, because I love it, but I want to make sure I am understanding the process correctly. So I should be able to continue crossfit in order to maintain the muscle I have gained, continue to see fat loss with the continued exercise and caloric deficit?
Thank you!
So if you maintain your current plan, you will continue to see fat loss. Once you are happy with your weight, bump up your calories to maintain it. As long as you are making progressive gains in crossfit, it should be an adequate stimulus to maintain and potentially gain muscle. But as alluded to there are many factors that affect that. It actually don't matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not, as long as you are seeing the improvements you want.1 -
But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?0 -
errollmaclean wrote: »So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
Thanks, bookmarked to read when I get a chance.1 -
I guess it might depend on if your body can matabolize enough bodyfat to make up the deficit, plus the energy needed to build the muscle.0
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BillMcKay1 wrote: »errollmaclean wrote: »So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?
Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?
Thanks for any information you guys have!
You can build muscle in a deficit. Not efficiently and not as well as a surplus. Results are actually pretty decent in obese untrained individuals as per this study from MacMasters Uni study.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160127132741.htm
The more trained you get and fitter you get the less efficient it is until it basically isn't worth the effort. But for many people here starting with a lot of weight to lose and fairly untrained, they can and will add muscle while in a deficit with sufficient protein and on a good progressively loading resistance training program.
Here is a decent vid from ERic Helmshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_wQq8M3Q
Thanks, basically what I was thinking.0 -
^ That helms vid is legit. Then again all of the stuff Helms puts out is awesome IMO.2
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