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Losing weight and adding muscle at the same time?

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Replies

  • sky_northern
    sky_northern Posts: 119 Member
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    How I understand it is there is a limit to the amount of fat that can be metabolized to fill in the energy need. So you wouldn't be able to have a very big deficit. Or be obese, as the amount you use relates to the amount you have. That is why having too large of a deficit if your just trying to lose weigh quickly also causes your body to breakdown more lean mass because it can't get everything it needs from fat.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    simple answer is that your body is not efficient enough to convert fat stores into energy and then appropriate that energy for muscle growth, especially when one is already in a deficit of calories.
  • briscogun
    briscogun Posts: 1,138 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    simple answer is that your body is not efficient enough to convert fat stores into energy and then appropriate that energy for muscle growth, especially when one is already in a deficit of calories.

    Correct. If I'm understanding the question correctly, its being asked why fat stores can't be used to build muscle. Muscle requires amino acids and build blocks that fat stores do not hold. You can burn fat stores for energy, but not for the purpose of building muscle. That's why recomp takes so long: you are eating at a small deficit to be able to lose small amounts of fat, and still be eating enough to create a muscle growth scenario.

    Hey, if it were easy, everyone would do it, right?
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    brian_gunther wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    simple answer is that your body is not efficient enough to convert fat stores into energy and then appropriate that energy for muscle growth, especially when one is already in a deficit of calories.

    Correct. If I'm understanding the question correctly, its being asked why fat stores can't be used to build muscle. Muscle requires amino acids and build blocks that fat stores do not hold. You can burn fat stores for energy, but not for the purpose of building muscle. That's why recomp takes so long: you are eating at a small deficit to be able to lose small amounts of fat, and still be eating enough to create a muscle growth scenario.

    Hey, if it were easy, everyone would do it, right?

    Point of correction. Recomp is eating at maintenance. A small deficit is a cut.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    So I know you can’t gain muscle in a deficit, but I’ve always wondered; if you’re in a deficit wouldn’t your fat stores count as extra calories/available energy for your body to use? If your macros were on point wouldn’t your body get the rest from your fat stores? Or does it not work like that?

    Isn’t this what happens in a recomp? Or is it just not optimal/incredibly inefficient during a cut? What am I missing?

    Thanks for any information you guys have!

    Yes you have it just about spot on. Recomp is far less unusual than people on MFP in particular seem to think.
    When I was starting out in the late seventies and early eighties it was the norm for getting in shape - bulking/cutting was seen as the preserve of serious bodybuilders only. Getting in shape mostly meant both losing fat and gaining muscle

    It happens typically in a fairly narrow band around maintenance calories. It's just the perfectly natural response of muscle growth when you have the stimulus of training and supported by and adequate (not necessarily "on point") diet. The bigger the deficit it's reasonable to assume the more on point you would have to be - calorie/nutrition timing for example.

    Muscle is constantly being broken down and rebuilt, it's not static, same for fat stores for energy - constantly being added to and depleted depending on energy needs, people aren't in a surplus/deficit 24x7 just because their daily intake is above/below TDEE.
    You aren't building muscle from fat of course, it's just providing some of your energy needs.

    I wouldn't call it "incredibly inefficient" as in many ways doing two things at once is very efficient! Sub-optimal for speed of growth would be a better description. How successful people are at it is very specific depending on many factors. Some will fail to recomp, some will have spectacular results.

    Anecdotes either way don't help much as it is very individual but here's mine anyway......
    In my early years I could recomp extremely quickly even in a sizeable deficit as I trained hard and seemed to have better genetics for growth than my peers. In my 30's still not at all difficult to see steady muscle growth while losing fat, just slower. Never paid any attention to eating any special way apart from dieting for weight loss.
    But in my 50's far slower and my deficit had to be minimal and I was far more rigorous about nutrition. As far as I could tell from BodPod and other measures a deficit of 1lb a week saw me lose a little LBM along with mostly fat and 1lb a month (!) deficit saw me gain LBM while losing fat.

    There's loads of info and links to studies here......
    http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
    (That man Eric Helms again.)

    The maths around people who are perfectly maintaining their weight while losing fat / gaining muscle actually being in a calorie deficit takes some getting your head around. Hint - think stored energy not just CICO.
  • errollmaclean
    errollmaclean Posts: 562 Member
    brian_gunther wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    simple answer is that your body is not efficient enough to convert fat stores into energy and then appropriate that energy for muscle growth, especially when one is already in a deficit of calories.

    Correct. If I'm understanding the question correctly, its being asked why fat stores can't be used to build muscle. Muscle requires amino acids and build blocks that fat stores do not hold. You can burn fat stores for energy, but not for the purpose of building muscle. That's why recomp takes so long: you are eating at a small deficit to be able to lose small amounts of fat, and still be eating enough to create a muscle growth scenario.

    Hey, if it were easy, everyone would do it, right?
    brian_gunther wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    errollmaclean wrote: »
    Noel_57 wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    From what I have read, it can be possible for this to happen. It was in an article by Lyle McDonald where he talked about how in very overweight individuals it can be possible for the body to take energy out of fat cells to create muscle (as a result of some amount of insulin resistance + added training). It is pretty interesting if you want to have a read:
    But I thought muscle was created from amino acids i.e. dietary protein, and not fat calories.

    My question being, if your macros are on point, meaning you have enough dietary protein, would your fat stores count as a caloric surplus? Technically as we cut our bodies are still using the same amount of calories per day. While we may be at a food created deficit, our bodies have available energy from our fat. So if our body uses the fat to fill in any calorie deficit while cutting, why wouldn'the it be able to pull more for the purpose of building muscle? (Assuming your macros are sufficient) The only thing that changes in a caloric surplus is you'd get the remaining energy balance from food instead of fat stores. Or is it more complicated than that?

    simple answer is that your body is not efficient enough to convert fat stores into energy and then appropriate that energy for muscle growth, especially when one is already in a deficit of calories.

    Correct. If I'm understanding the question correctly, its being asked why fat stores can't be used to build muscle. Muscle requires amino acids and build blocks that fat stores do not hold. You can burn fat stores for energy, but not for the purpose of building muscle. That's why recomp takes so long: you are eating at a small deficit to be able to lose small amounts of fat, and still be eating enough to create a muscle growth scenario.

    Hey, if it were easy, everyone would do it, right?

    Sorry that's not what I was asking.

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