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U.S. FDA orders antibacterials removed from consumer soaps
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The issue and danger with overuse of antibiotics is bacterial resistance - while everyone knows this they still insist on using antibiotics. The issue now is that the resistant genes are already out there and being shared by bacteria, so stopping the use now is pointless.
Not pointless.
Selective pressure is required for a high rate of retention for most of those genes over multiple generations. Remove the selective pressure and the percentage of bacteria resistant to that pressure should drop.
Perhaps for the environmental microbial populations at large; however for the clinically significant pathogens - pointless.
If you mean eliminating the specific antibiotics in soap is basically meaningless for clinically significant pathogens, then I'd agree.
If you mean that eliminating any antibiotic is pointless to reduce populations of clinically significant pathogens once the resistance is out there, then I'd disagree. Populations of pathogens such as MTB have been followed when this or that antibiotic falls out of favor. When it does, over time the percentage of cases that are resistant to that particular antibiotic decrease.
We're on the same page here. I'm not one of the fact denying purists who demonizes all use of antibiotics. Antibiotics are a very necessary tool in treatment; however the overuse in everyday items - soap, animal feed, etc. has forced resistance for thousands of years potentially.
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Christine_72 wrote: »The issue and danger with overuse of antibiotics is bacterial resistance - while everyone knows this they still insist on using antibiotics. The issue now is that the resistant genes are already out there and being shared by bacteria, so stopping the use now is pointless.
I will avoid taking antibiotics unless it's a life or death situation. Taking them usually gives me worse problems than the actual condition they are trying to treat!
It would be wonderful if everyone took this attitude and stayed home when sick so they would not spread infections. Unfortunately all managers and businesses are not so understanding. This is a very necessary cultural change that needs to happen.5 -
Christine_72 wrote: »
Look at all the people that go into hospital but never make it out due to picking up deadly infections in there. Hospitals would have to be the number 1 user of antibacterials.
Incorrect. Hospitals don't train their staff on industrial cleanliness nor personal cleanliness (to the degree they need to). Most doctors only take 1 course the entire time they are in school about cleanliness. Plus doctors and staff don't always take the proper precautions for a variety of reasons, like they are busy or forget.2 -
The issue and danger with overuse of antibiotics is bacterial resistance - while everyone knows this they still insist on using antibiotics. The issue now is that the resistant genes are already out there and being shared by bacteria, so stopping the use now is pointless.
Not pointless.
Selective pressure is required for a high rate of retention for most of those genes over multiple generations. Remove the selective pressure and the percentage of bacteria resistant to that pressure should drop.
Perhaps for the environmental microbial populations at large; however for the clinically significant pathogens - pointless.
If you mean eliminating the specific antibiotics in soap is basically meaningless for clinically significant pathogens, then I'd agree.
If you mean that eliminating any antibiotic is pointless to reduce populations of clinically significant pathogens once the resistance is out there, then I'd disagree. Populations of pathogens such as MTB have been followed when this or that antibiotic falls out of favor. When it does, over time the percentage of cases that are resistant to that particular antibiotic decrease.
We're on the same page here. I'm not one of the fact denying purists who demonizes all use of antibiotics. Antibiotics are a very necessary tool in treatment; however the overuse in everyday items - soap, animal feed, etc. has forced resistance for thousands of years potentially.
And let's not forget perfectly appropriate prescriptions where the patients don't complete the protocol. That's been a major contributor as well. No idea how to improve that one other than repeatedly emphasizing the importance of continuing to take the medicine even after the patient feels better/normal and praying that they'll actually listen.4 -
Christine_72 wrote: »
Look at all the people that go into hospital but never make it out due to picking up deadly infections in there. Hospitals would have to be the number 1 user of antibacterials.
Incorrect. Hospitals don't train their staff on industrial cleanliness nor personal cleanliness (to the degree they need to). Most doctors only take 1 course the entire time they are in school about cleanliness. Plus doctors and staff don't always take the proper precautions for a variety of reasons, like they are busy or forget.
You must be going to some miserable hospitals.
I work for a major health care system. I do not work with patients, my office is not even in a building where patients would be, but even I have required yearly classes on proper sterile technique in the clinical setting. That's apart from the required classes I take for proper sterile technique (and radiation and biohazard handling) in the laboratory setting. Which are more rigorous, but just as useless for me because I no longer work in a laboratory.
Our doctors and nurses are required to do far more, as well as be evaluated regularly on their knowledge.
Which is not to say there is not laziness, sloppiness, or forgetfulness that causes them to break protocol occasionally. But it is not lack of knowledge.6 -
Christine_72 wrote: »
Look at all the people that go into hospital but never make it out due to picking up deadly infections in there. Hospitals would have to be the number 1 user of antibacterials.
Incorrect. Hospitals don't train their staff on industrial cleanliness nor personal cleanliness (to the degree they need to). Most doctors only take 1 course the entire time they are in school about cleanliness. Plus doctors and staff don't always take the proper precautions for a variety of reasons, like they are busy or forget.
I dunno... My husband had a procedure done a couple weeks ago at our local hospital, and he had to sanitise his hands with a betadine wash before walking from one room to another, I'm surprised he had any skin left on his hands at the end of the day. His experience is what made me comment on this thread.1 -
Around here we hear all the time "don't be afraid to ask your doctor to was their hands when they enter your room". I thought that was rediculous. What doc would not wash his/her hands?! Well, when I was in labour with my last child we arrived at the hospital(after a one hour ride that should have taken 1.5hrs. We were in a bit of a hurry given that I go from labour to delivery extremely fast) but my husband was desperate to stop at the public washrooms on our way up to delivery while I paced in the hall. In walked a name tagged doc behind him and was out in less than 30sec. I asked my husband if the gentleman before him had washed up. "Nope" was the reply. They can train all they want but some people choose to be idiots no matter what their education. My midwife was one of the good ones though!!1
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The issue and danger with overuse of antibiotics is bacterial resistance - while everyone knows this they still insist on using antibiotics. The issue now is that the resistant genes are already out there and being shared by bacteria, so stopping the use now is pointless.
Absolutely NOT pointless. The resistance genes have been out there for a long time. It is the selective pressure that is causing them to increase. If you relieve this pressure, the spread of these genes should go down.
They have actually found these resistance genes in caves in bacteria that supposedly have not been exposed to antibiotics. The overuse of antibiotics have helped put selective pressure on microbial populations to select for resistant strains. It is not too late to stop this trend.
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The issue and danger with overuse of antibiotics is bacterial resistance - while everyone knows this they still insist on using antibiotics. The issue now is that the resistant genes are already out there and being shared by bacteria, so stopping the use now is pointless.
Absolutely NOT pointless. The resistance genes have been out there for a long time. It is the selective pressure that is causing them to increase. If you relieve this pressure, the spread of these genes should go down.
They have actually found these resistance genes in caves in bacteria that supposedly have not been exposed to antibiotics. The overuse of antibiotics have helped put selective pressure on microbial populations to select for resistant strains. It is not too late to stop this trend.
Resistance genes have developed within one line of bacteria to compete against foreign colonies. These resistance genes can be shared locally to any living organism through transposable elements. Once you introduce a broad spectrum antibiotic on a global scale you introduce resistance genes on a global scale. For a very short time any isolated strains may live without these genes, but once they come in contact with another organism carrying the resistance gene these have a chance of becoming resistant. These resistance genes are here to stay for the next thousand years.
The antibiotics in hand sanitizes are so broad spectrum and mild that there is no effectivity, hence the ruling from regulatory authorities.0 -
I am normally content to lurk on MFP discussions, amused by some of the "woo" and impressed by the way it is countered, but as a microbiologist I feel I must correct some confusion which has crept into this thread.
Antibacterial compounds are substances used to kill (bactericidal) or or stop bacteria from reproducing (bacteriostatic). Antibiotics are a special class of antibacterial compound specifically developed in an attempt to create the "Magic bullet" envisaged by the early microbiologists: they are intended to attack a target in the metabolism or structure of a bacterium which is not found in higher organisms. They can thus be introduced into a patient's body and arrest the development of the infection without damaging the host. Since the targets are by necessity specific, it is possible for mutations to resistance to occur. Bacteria are pretty prolific in their ability to exchange genetic information between species, genera etc so this resistance can be spread around, especially when inappropriate or ineffective use of antibiotics selects for resistant strains.
On the other hand, the types of compounds use in surface cleaners, hand washes etc. (What most people would describe as disinfectants, and antiseptics) have pretty crude modes of action. For example they may denature proteins or organic material in general, or damage cell membranes. This means that they may also damage non bacterial cells. When your mother put tincture of iodine on a cut and told you it stung (like ****!) because it was doing you good, she was lying. The stinging is the iodine destroying your skin cells . This is why the mildest of these compounds (antiseptics) can only be applied topically or as mouthwash. Also because of their mode of action it is generally unlikely that a bacterium will developed a resistance mutation to them. Its a bit like humans developing a resistance to being blown up! Certainly, specific disinfectants may be more effective against one group of bacteria (spore formers or gram negatives for example) than another. Because of this a properly organised cleaning regime rotates between three or so different disinfectants.
I would agree (and I believe that the literature backs me up) that the physical removal of bacteria and dirt (especially organic) which protects and feeds them is probably the most important aspect of sanitising procedures intended to minimise the microbial load in hospitals and pharmaceutical and food manufacting plants. Many of the more modern antimicrobials (for example, quaternary ammonium compounds) are surface active agents. They are most effective on gram-negative bacteria( such a Escherichia coli) because they damage the cell envelope, but they areaalso good cleaning agents as well as being fairly inocuous (ingesting a little wont harm you), tasteless and odourless.
To finish, I am concerned that those who are easily swayed by scare stores, are anti "Big" or whatever may say that disinfectant and antiseptic compounds are bad (they are chemicals after all) and that whatever experts say they will not use them. Feel free to do so in the comfort of your own home and don't come crying to me when you develop a nasty dose of food poisoning, but do NOT attempt to avoid or subvert their use in healthcare and the food and pharmaceutical industries where they are one of the essential tools for the combat of spoilage and disease.
Here endeth antilcrobials 10112 -
I definitely think they should be used in food work and health care. And responsibly by others (no need for extreme germaphobia and overuse).
I was severely injured by antibiotics and another med. That was why I said I avoid them unless absolutely necessary. This is directed by my Rheumatologist and all of my doctors. It's been over a year and I am still dealing with the health damage from the meds. I was wrongly prescribed. Meds do need to be prescribed correctly and responsibly. And some have way more risks than benefits (they are prescribed for cosmetic, not medical reasons, but worsen both). But, during this year my daughter got strep throat and she took antibiotics. Just wanted to explain and provide correct information to prevent false conclusions.0 -
Maybe they'll get rid of fluoride next.0
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