185 lbs to 175lbs was a BUST lost more muscle than anything.

Michael190lbs

So I did a 2 month cut I think lost 9 lbs of muscle to 1 lb of fat so not really happy. I kept my protein and Fat above minimums calories in a 300-500 deficit lifted 6 days a week did thirty min cardio 5 days a week (kept HR under 125) not sure what I'm missing really trying to drop body fat to single digits but not sure I want to weigh 165 lbs to do it. My strength and energy are still really good hitting everything twice a week about 20 sets per major body part.

Any suggestions would be great!

ndj1979

how are you measuring/determining muscle and fat loss?

Michael190lbs

Mirror and pictures not the most scientific method I know and the above 9 to 1 is just a guess but it sure does look like more muscle than fat loss to me.

ndj1979

did you take measurements during your bulk and cut?

LazSommer

pics bro

l1k4

9 pounds of muscle in 2 months is quite a feat. Any idea what your RHR is, provide your age, if you know your current BF%, and average weightlifting time when you workout. Answers to these questions may be able to help you hone your workouts and provide folks with a better idea of what happened.

Michael190lbs

I'm 48 looking at pics of body fat % on google probably 12%- my resting HR is high 50's low 60's. I'm strong I can still get 275 5 times bench, deadlift 315 for reps and I don't squat over 275 by choice but can do it 8 times for sets. I do about 15 sets of 12-15 reps pull ups and rows twice a week so I'm in good physical shape. Not bragging just details- my gym sessions 75 min approx a little longer on leg day-

Thank you

Packerjohn

How long did you bulk and was the 185 top weight?

robininfl

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I'm 48 looking at pics of body fat % on google probably 12%- my resting HR is high 50's low 60's. I'm strong I can still get 275 5 times bench, deadlift 315 for reps and I don't squat over 275 by choice but can do it 8 times for sets. I do about 15 sets of 12-15 reps pull ups and rows twice a week so I'm in good physical shape. Not bragging just details- my gym sessions 75 min approx a little longer on leg day-

Thank you

So you think you became less lean during your cut? This seems really unlikely. What got smaller, physically? If it was your waist, that was fat.

Is there any particular reason you want to be in single digits for fat % ? Because 12% body fat seems great for health and looks both.

bagge72

Michael190lbs wrote: »

Mirror and pictures not the most scientific method I know and the above 9 to 1 is just a guess but it sure does look like more muscle than fat loss to me.

So you did no measuring at all? Before or after? I don't know what to say, seems more of a mental imagine thing, since there are no facts at all.

J72FIT

Michael190lbs wrote: »

So I did a 2 month cut I think lost 9 lbs of muscle to 1 lb of fat so not really happy.

Wow! Yeah I would be bummed as well...

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I kept my protein and Fat above minimums calories in a 300-500 deficit lifted 6 days a week did thirty min cardio 5 days a week (kept HR under 125) not sure what I'm missing

When you say above minimum what are we talking about? What are your stats?

Lifting 6 days a week and cardio 5 days a week seems like a lot to me if one is cutting. Always thought in that instance you wanted to keep the intensity high but reduce duration...

Michael190lbs wrote: »

really trying to drop body fat to single digits but not sure I want to weigh 165 lbs to do it.

Don't blame you...

Michael190lbs wrote: »

My strength and energy are still really good hitting everything twice a week about 20 sets per major body part.

I would try to reduce frequency but keep intensity high...

Michael190lbs

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

BigJes37

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

I know this far to well. By the protein, carb and fat numbers you provide it looks your calories might be a bit less. Also if you go to low on carbs for to long you will break down muscle. I made this mistake my first competition.

J72FIT

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

Yeah that really is the tell all...

Michael190lbs

BigJes37 wrote: »

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

I know this far to well. By the protein, carb and fat numbers you provide it looks your calories might be a bit less. Also if you go to low on carbs for to long you will break down muscle. I made this mistake my first competition.

I think its the carbs being to low I was typically under 150 grams most days the past three months all the Cardio probably isn't helping either.

Thank you.

BigJes37

With that much high training your burning up all your glycogen and not getting it filled back up hopefully that change will help

sgt1372

OP: You should get a DEXA or hydrostatic scan. That's the only way you'll know for sure what your BF and LBM are.

Then decide if you want to lose anymore weight or bulk back up and then take another scan 3 months later to see what the results of your efforts in the interim have been.

Michael190lbs

I'll look into the scan opportunities in my area Great advice. Carbs will go over 200 next two months

Packerjohn

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

Getting to single digit BF% and maintain at that level is pretty rare air, up there with NFL wide receivers. Have you ever been at that level as an adult for an extended period of time? I'm thinking to maintain at that level there needs to be some genetics help, especially approaching 50.

The 12% range is great. You could get to the single digits if you would want to do a competition or for a special beach vacation, might be hard to stay there long term.

rankinsect

Michael190lbs wrote: »

So I did a 2 month cut I think lost 9 lbs of muscle to 1 lb of fat so not really happy. I kept my protein and Fat above minimums calories in a 300-500 deficit lifted 6 days a week did thirty min cardio 5 days a week (kept HR under 125) not sure what I'm missing really trying to drop body fat to single digits but not sure I want to weigh 165 lbs to do it. My strength and energy are still really good hitting everything twice a week about 20 sets per major body part.

Any suggestions would be great!

Are you still cutting? You will lose glycogen and water whenever you cut, particularly if carbs are low, but you'll regain it as you go to maintenance and up carbs. Technically it's lean mass (and muscle volume), but it's quick to be gained and lost, unlike muscle protein.

I can easily gain or lose 4-7 lb just by going to maintenance/high carb versus deficit/moderate carb.

Sued0nim

Michael190lbs wrote: »

BigJes37 wrote: »

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I keep my protein above 150 fat above 80 carbs typically under 150 just because I like meat fish shrimp- calories this pat two months 26-2800 I'm 6'0 48 years old

Reason to get in single digits was a goal I'm happy with how I look at 180- 185 it was just a goal for 2016

Losing weight is easy for me so is putting on weight I'm very disciplined diet wise-

I'll drop cardio to two days a week for the next two months and see what happens.

Just looking for a few opinions on something I'm missing- I wish I would have measured

I know this far to well. By the protein, carb and fat numbers you provide it looks your calories might be a bit less. Also if you go to low on carbs for to long you will break down muscle. I made this mistake my first competition.

I think its the carbs being to low I was typically under 150 grams most days the past three months all the Cardio probably isn't helping either.

Thank you.

You sure it isn't glycogen - water depletion if you went low carb ...would reduce mass

l1k4

Upon further review: 1. Reduce workouts to allow for body to recover; OP has mentioned this. 2. Increase carbs; OP has mentioned this. 3. Carb reduction is probably the culprit since glycogen and water molecules have a 2:1 ratio of water to glycogen. 4. Upside is you didn't lose 9 pounds of muscle. If you did it would be a long road back up '9 pound O' Muscle Mountain' Good luck

richln

12-13% is not a happy place for me during a cut. It is too high before I get to the "illusion of big" from increased striations and improved proportionality, and that coupled with glycogen depletion just makes me feel tiny. If you really lost 9 lbs of muscle protein mass, your lifts would be tanking.

Michael190lbs

I'll see if I can't find some carbs I can incorporate into my diet and agree I'm sure I didn't lose 9lbs of muscle it just felt like it.

I lost the weight equally over the course of 8 weeks so not a dramatic one night or even week loss.

Question: I thought all calories were the same and that after the excess protein and Fat calories (Macro minimums) my body couldn't use would be stored and used as Glycogen for energy just like Carbs do? Is this wrong? I understand Carbs can work faster for energy especially in a marathon but am I wrong in thinking a calorie is not just a calorie when it comes to a cut and maintaining muscle?

Thank you
By Macro minimums I mean 150 grams protein and 100 grams fat rest of calories are from any source I choose.

richln

Michael190lbs wrote: »

I'll see if I can't find some carbs I can incorporate into my diet and agree I'm sure I didn't lose 9lbs of muscle it just felt like it.

I lost the weight equally over the course of 8 weeks so not a dramatic one night or even week loss.

Question: I thought all calories were the same and that after the excess protein and Fat calories (Macro minimums) my body couldn't use would be stored and used as Glycogen for energy just like Carbs do? Is this wrong? I understand Carbs can work faster for energy especially in a marathon but am I wrong in thinking a calorie is not just a calorie when it comes to a cut and maintaining muscle?

Thank you
By Macro minimums I mean 150 grams protein and 100 grams fat rest of calories are from any source I choose.

If you are time-average in caloric deficit, then nothing is getting stored. You don't have enough energy intake to even maintain your current body mass. GNG will ramp up with high protein diet (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19640952), but that extra glucose is going straight to energy needs, not getting stored in any significant amount. Just being in energy deficit will affect your glycogen reserves, but relying on GNG alone with severe carb restriction during deficit is going to have even more of an impact on your glycogen reserves. GNG is metabolically expensive, so building excessive glycogen reserves during energy deficit is not a priority. This is why people dump water weight immediately on starting keto (before any real fat loss even occurs), and high-carb diet helps power-related performance during caloric deficit:
https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-2007-1024662
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10365988
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43490306_Effects_of_Carbohydrate_Restriction_on_Strength_Performance

Have you tried a carb refeed? I only see one day in your picture of your carb intake that looks like you got a decent amount of carbs for your stats and activity level. Try a carb refeed day at slightly over caloric maintenance, keeping your protein and fat really low, and eat mostly carbs (keep well-hydrated too). Pay attention to how you look and feel the day after, maybe even 2 days after. This might change your opinion on how much muscle mass you have actually lost. Nothing wrong with a low-carb approach to losing weight, glycogen depletion is just one of the consequences.

Michael190lbs

Thank you all

I will look into the glycogen depletion sounds pretty spot on for what I did to myself!! Live and learn!!

medic2038

Michael190lbs wrote: »

Thank you all

I will look into the glycogen depletion sounds pretty spot on for what I did to myself!! Live and learn!!

Yeah i know it's a few days late, but from reading I'd guess you're just depleted. You don't have to be keto to have muscle glycogen depletion with the amount of exercise you're doing. A lot of people feel like their muscles get "flat" while doing keto, and that's from depletion.

If you want to do a carb cycle, take one day an go with 1000 calories of just carbs (in addition to your normal protein intake, keep fats down on that day though )in the course of about 4 hours. I used mainly bagels and waffles, it's weird because it feels like you're binging. That next day you'll probably gain at least 5lbs, and your muscles will probably look much "fuller".

Michael190lbs

ya in just 18 hours a fuller look more than likely better tomorrow. Thank you -How often should someone load up on carbs on a keto diet if there sticking to maintenance or a little below with exercise

richln

Pretty good discussion on it here:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10320115/cutting-techniques-post-bulk/p1
If you are doing keto, you may benefit from refeeding more often than someone on moderate carbs, but obviously it will kick you out of keto for awhile.

Michael190lbs

Ok 30 days later kept carbs above 200 everyday and calories 2800-3500 put on a measly 2lbs but muscles blew back up so depleted was more than likely correct.

I don't want to weigh any less but want to Lower my body fat percentage this is called recomp right? So as long as I refeed once a week with Carbs and keep my calories around 2800-3200 is this possible? I have NO problem with energy hell I could ride a bike 20 miles a day 7 days a week and still lift weights 6 days a week energy is just something I have.. NOT bragging.

Thank you Mike

trigden1991

Michael190lbs wrote: »

Ok 30 days later kept carbs above 200 everyday and calories 2800-3500 put on a measly 2lbs but muscles blew back up so depleted was more than likely correct.

I don't want to weigh any less but want to Lower my body fat percentage this is called recomp right? So as long as I refeed once a week with Carbs and keep my calories around 2800-3200 is this possible? I have NO problem with energy hell I could ride a bike 20 miles a day 7 days a week and still lift weights 6 days a week energy is just something I have.. NOT bragging.

Thank you Mike

Yes that is the definition of a recomp. I would say that recomping when you are already lean is very slow and laborious. If you really want to get lean (sub 10%) then you will need a calorie deficit as the body has minimal fat stores to use for energy.

Your plan to re-feed once a week is a good plan to replenish glycogen in the muscles.