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Banning Underweight Models -- a jumping off point for a broader discussion
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I have thought about this some more. People in this thread are saying that if their job is on the line their doctors will stop being responsible doctors that work with their patients on health and health concerns. And will instead ignore health concerns and lie. So, in that case putting their job on the line makes it a more unhealthy situation for them, and they will not receive proper and correct health care. So, then I think it shouldn't be banned. Because then they will not be discouraged from seeking good health care and help for fear of losing their job.1
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I don't know how it effects the consumer. But, my doctor and I agree I am very healthy at a bmi of 18.5. But, when it dropped to 17.5 because of medical issues, my doctor and I were equally concerned.0
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This issue has been massively hyped up over the years.
There are very few actual underweight models in my eyes now, there are fairly strict controls on recruitment and selection of models for top agencies.
I've dated a couple of models over the past few years (and trained a couple) and not one of them would I call an unhealthy weight - slim and toned, yes! Unhealthy? Far from it.
I see having athletic models as a good thing.
Just my opinion
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AdamAthletic wrote: »This issue has been massively hyped up over the years.
There are very few actual underweight models in my eyes now, there are fairly strict controls on recruitment and selection of models for top agencies.
Agreed. Many models that people complain about as "underweight" are perfectly healthy, but naturally thin and/or athletic. I recall people in the '90s being upset about Kate Moss and Cindy Crawford, neither of whom were at all underweight, just thin.
Additionally, there's a certain class of doctors who will sign off on anything. The HAES community online trade names of doctors who enable their morbid obesity. I can go to a long list of doctors in Nevada or California who will sign off an any number of made-up conditions in order to get me a medical marijuana card. Bodybuilders have been getting "medically based" testosterone prescriptions for decades.
Personally, I don't care what people do as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. If that means there are a few models out there who decide to be "friends of Ana," so be it.
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NorthCascades wrote: »@RachelElser do you think more underage people would drink if underage drinking wasn't banned? Of course they would, a lot of underage people want to drink and sometimes they can't get any hooch, making it easier to get will mean more underage drinking. So, yes, banning underage drinking means there's less of it. Banning things doesn't eliminate them, but it can help.
Restrictive liquor legislation has been shown to encourage binge-drinking in youngsters while permissive liquor legislation has been shown to encourage moderation and responsible consumption in youngsters. FWIW, binge-drinking fatalities per capita are higher in the U.S. than in any other country in the world.
Note also that the only way we get underage drinking is by having restrictive liquor legislation in the first place. If there was no threshold age for drinking, there would be no measure of who was above or below that (non-existent) threshold.
It's a flimsy analogy to start and I don't think you're achieving what you think you are achieving with restrictive liquor laws even if drinking age was analogous with weight requirements for models.6 -
This began because models were dying. The trends got thinner, thinner, thinner, until they began literally starving to death. So I'm guessing the legislation was necessary.2
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diannethegeek wrote: »Okay, the other thread on why some people are aiming for lower goal weights in the underweight category didn't go well. And since I was one who pointed out that I think there's a broader discussion to be had that can't be had over there, it feels like I should start a thread where maybe it can be had.
Debaters of MFP, I bring you a subject. Run with it. Expand on it. Have at it with this thread.
In 2015 France banned all models who are under a healthy weight as determined by their doctor.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35130792A previous version of the bill had suggested a minimum Body Mass Index (BMI) for models, prompting protests from modelling agencies in France.
But the final draft approved on Thursday allows doctors to decide whether a model is too thin by taking into account their weight, age, and body shape.
It also says that digitally altered images making a model's silhouette "narrower or wider" should be labelled "touched up".
France is not the first country to legislate on underweight models - Italy, Spain and Israel have all done so.
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/style-beauty/news/a37979/what-models-really-think-about-france-banning-extremely-skinny-models/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ainsley-mcwha/i-wish-france-had-banned-underweight-models-when-i-was-one_b_7020356.html
Good idea? Bad idea? Are there better ways?
So long as we also ban the incompetent doctors, underperforming teachers, dreadful parents, and other people who do not perform in their professions the way the government would like them to. I think it's a horrible idea to have the government be able to ban me from making a living the way I see fit. Let's start banning the publications that employ these models. Or better, let's not perpetuate a stereotype of beauty that is so bony.2 -
Well case closed.. determined by a doctor..
And too I can see this playing out.. extra dollars in doctors pocket for signing off that said underweight person meet qualification? What about extra dollars in doctors pocket for signing off that a person who is 5 -10 pounds over the qualification now meets the qualification.
Can work both ways.. But also underweight, medium weight and over weight are not one size fits all standards. Someone can easily be 15 pounds more than me and look as thin as myself as in body composition etc..2 -
I almost cannot believe how many people ate outraged thete are overweight models.2
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diannethegeek wrote: »Okay, the other thread on why some people are aiming for lower goal weights in the underweight category didn't go well. And since I was one who pointed out that I think there's a broader discussion to be had that can't be had over there, it feels like I should start a thread where maybe it can be had.
Debaters of MFP, I bring you a subject. Run with it. Expand on it. Have at it with this thread.
In 2015 France banned all models who are under a healthy weight as determined by their doctor.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35130792A previous version of the bill had suggested a minimum Body Mass Index (BMI) for models, prompting protests from modelling agencies in France.
But the final draft approved on Thursday allows doctors to decide whether a model is too thin by taking into account their weight, age, and body shape.
It also says that digitally altered images making a model's silhouette "narrower or wider" should be labelled "touched up".
France is not the first country to legislate on underweight models - Italy, Spain and Israel have all done so.
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/style-beauty/news/a37979/what-models-really-think-about-france-banning-extremely-skinny-models/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ainsley-mcwha/i-wish-france-had-banned-underweight-models-when-i-was-one_b_7020356.html
Good idea? Bad idea? Are there better ways?
So long as we also ban the incompetent doctors, underperforming teachers, dreadful parents, and other people who do not perform in their professions the way the government would like them to. I think it's a horrible idea to have the government be able to ban me from making a living the way I see fit. Let's start banning the publications that employ these models. Or better, let's not perpetuate a stereotype of beauty that is so bony.
I agree with this. It's a Very Bad Idea for the government to get involved in regulating things like weight requirements for anything. Especially when then handing over the authority to individual doctors who may have personal motives for their decisions. Age requirements, yes - that's a well-established and clearly defined line - you're either 18 or 21, or you're not. If you're of age to make your own decisions then the government has no business setting broad restrictions on those decisions, good or bad. And then there's the precedent set for setting restrictions in other areas - overweight dietitians, doctors and nurses should be banned for instance. Heck, start banning anyone who isn't within healthy weight guidelines from working in any profession that might influence the general public in unhealthy directions. And ultimately, that sort of insanity would blow back far more harshly on the overweight.1 -
I'm not sure regulation solves anything.
1. There are naturally underweight people who do not starve themselves and are perfectly healthy. They should not be restricted from a profession of their choice due to their weight/BMI.
2. There are unethical doctors out there who will approve an unhealthy underweight model for money
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AdamAthletic wrote: »This issue has been massively hyped up over the years.
There are very few actual underweight models in my eyes now, there are fairly strict controls on recruitment and selection of models for top agencies.
I've dated a couple of models over the past few years (and trained a couple) and not one of them would I call an unhealthy weight - slim and toned, yes! Unhealthy? Far from it.
I see having athletic models as a good thing.
Just my opinion
I think you're wrong about "very few actual underweight models" as I would wager than virtually all high fashion runway girls are technically underweight, considering that most of them are 5'10" at minimum and with those 32-23-33 type measurements.
However, I also think that when the general public thinks of "models", it's not the Vlada Roslyakovas or Magdalena Frackowiaks they're talking about and I agree that your typical catalogue/ad model is more likely to just be a healthy-looking slim. VS models are probably a good example - most of them don't work in high fashion (except the ones who are photoshopped larger for VS) because they're "too big" by those standards, but they look pretty fit and healthy to most people, I think. The current fashion for stronger, more-muscular looking models for print/video is IMO just as difficult to achieve as a very skinny look but at least it's a little more likely to be a healthy thing.1 -
AdamAthletic wrote: »This issue has been massively hyped up over the years.
There are very few actual underweight models in my eyes now, there are fairly strict controls on recruitment and selection of models for top agencies.
I've dated a couple of models over the past few years (and trained a couple) and not one of them would I call an unhealthy weight - slim and toned, yes! Unhealthy? Far from it.
I see having athletic models as a good thing.
Just my opinion
I think you're wrong about "very few actual underweight models" as I would wager than virtually all high fashion runway girls are technically underweight, considering that most of them are 5'10" at minimum and with those 32-23-33 type measurements.
However, I also think that when the general public thinks of "models", it's not the Vlada Roslyakovas or Magdalena Frackowiaks they're talking about and I agree that your typical catalogue/ad model is more likely to just be a healthy-looking slim. VS models are probably a good example - most of them don't work in high fashion (except the ones who are photoshopped larger for VS) because they're "too big" by those standards, but they look pretty fit and healthy to most people, I think. The current fashion for stronger, more-muscular looking models for print/video is IMO just as difficult to achieve as a very skinny look but at least it's a little more likely to be a healthy thing.
The VS models are an interesting case. They're underweight, with BMIs in the 16s and 17s, but they're still often given as examples of "healthy" models. They also are generally 5'9", 18% BF or slightly less, and 34-24-34 dimensions. I think that 18% BF is key to the "healthy" look - they're not approaching critical levels, and they've kept enough fat to have underwear-modeling curves.
Whether they're actually healthy or not is a different question. They do engage in extreme behaviors before auditions/shows, but beyond that I'm not their doctor and have no idea.0 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »I like that it says "as determined by their doctor". Whether or not a person is underweight is determined between the person and their doctor that understands their personal history, family history, frame size, health, etc. And if their doctor is concerned for their health then I think it's ok to ban them. Certain careers often involve a small frame like certain modeling or dancing jobs (not all). And it's ok for a small framed person to be slim and healthy. Outsiders can misjudge. It's opinion. So, I like that it is by doctor evaluation. And it's important to have an accurate safeguard against ED in these fields. I'm a dancer. When I was 16 I became too thin, and it was a barrier, not a plus for me as a dancer. To some people I am considered very tiny and slim. Other times my body is curvier than what is often seen in dance (it depends on the dance style). Edit to add: and for other styles I would be not curvy enough. We face pressure from the audience when doing a performing art.
I think underweight, normal weight, overweight are all pretty straight - forward categories based solely on BMI.0 -
mommarnurse wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »I like that it says "as determined by their doctor". Whether or not a person is underweight is determined between the person and their doctor that understands their personal history, family history, frame size, health, etc. And if their doctor is concerned for their health then I think it's ok to ban them. Certain careers often involve a small frame like certain modeling or dancing jobs (not all). And it's ok for a small framed person to be slim and healthy. Outsiders can misjudge. It's opinion. So, I like that it is by doctor evaluation. And it's important to have an accurate safeguard against ED in these fields. I'm a dancer. When I was 16 I became too thin, and it was a barrier, not a plus for me as a dancer. To some people I am considered very tiny and slim. Other times my body is curvier than what is often seen in dance (it depends on the dance style). Edit to add: and for other styles I would be not curvy enough. We face pressure from the audience when doing a performing art.
I think underweight, normal weight, overweight are all pretty straight - forward categories based solely on BMI.
No, people can have different frame sizes. That's why one person isn't underweight at 18 bmi, but another would be underweight at a much higher bmi. This is one of the biggest sources of confusion and conflict on mfp. If people understood this then setting goals and understanding differences would be much more smooth. That's part of the reason that bmi is a range and not just one number. I can explain this more. I'm just busy.
Edit to add: muscle mass is also a factor. But, a person with broad shoulders and a large rib cage has bigger internal organs and more space within their body frame that needs to be filled out with fat and muscle. For example I can't donate my kidneys to someone with a bigger frame size because my kidneys are too small to function at the capacity they need for their body size. On the flip side I could get a larger kidney if I needed it. The largest point on my rib cage is 25 inches. That's based on frame size. Other people wouldn't get that small from losing weight because their bone structure is different. There is a lot of variation.2 -
chocolate_owl wrote: »AdamAthletic wrote: »This issue has been massively hyped up over the years.
There are very few actual underweight models in my eyes now, there are fairly strict controls on recruitment and selection of models for top agencies.
I've dated a couple of models over the past few years (and trained a couple) and not one of them would I call an unhealthy weight - slim and toned, yes! Unhealthy? Far from it.
I see having athletic models as a good thing.
Just my opinion
I think you're wrong about "very few actual underweight models" as I would wager than virtually all high fashion runway girls are technically underweight, considering that most of them are 5'10" at minimum and with those 32-23-33 type measurements.
However, I also think that when the general public thinks of "models", it's not the Vlada Roslyakovas or Magdalena Frackowiaks they're talking about and I agree that your typical catalogue/ad model is more likely to just be a healthy-looking slim. VS models are probably a good example - most of them don't work in high fashion (except the ones who are photoshopped larger for VS) because they're "too big" by those standards, but they look pretty fit and healthy to most people, I think. The current fashion for stronger, more-muscular looking models for print/video is IMO just as difficult to achieve as a very skinny look but at least it's a little more likely to be a healthy thing.
The VS models are an interesting case. They're underweight, with BMIs in the 16s and 17s, but they're still often given as examples of "healthy" models. They also are generally 5'9", 18% BF or slightly less, and 34-24-34 dimensions. I think that 18% BF is key to the "healthy" look - they're not approaching critical levels, and they've kept enough fat to have underwear-modeling curves.
Whether they're actually healthy or not is a different question. They do engage in extreme behaviors before auditions/shows, but beyond that I'm not their doctor and have no idea.
Are you sure their BMIs are that low? I am not tall like a model, so maybe it's different. My measurements are in that range: 30-23-34. My bmi is 18.5. My doctors say I am at a healthy weight. I eat over 2000 calories a day.0 -
Body Shaming is Body Shaming regardless of if the person is overweight, or underweight. How about we address that first.....6
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My issue is as follows. I have a very good friend who is at a bmi of 17 and stunningly beautiful. She eats like a horse and have tried every fattening diet there is with no success.
If she wanted to become a model, I could not find it in my heart to stop her just because she is underweight. Yet, I do not want to see models starving themselves as at a bmi of 18 they are told they are fat.
I used to live with a model for a while in a flat share, she was a skinny minny, and seeing how on shoots they would pull her skin back with duct tape to make her look skinnier was an eye opener.
I am not sure what the answer is here. I want healthy models on the catwalk. But how do we ensure they are actually healthy and not paying off a doctor to get a certificate stating they are healthy?0 -
For me (and this goes back to the previous thread as well), the issue is that very few people have any idea what healthy is or how it looks. Nevermind the fact that it would be impossible to make blanket statements across an industry about what was or wasn't healthy with any degree of accuracy. How are you going to tell 1 model she is healthy and another that she isn't. And then what happens on the men's side? It may be a different set of healthy issues, but I'd bet there are concerns there.
This, like so many other things, ultimately tracks back to education. And right now, schools and families are in an informational war with advertising, media, perspective, etc etc.3
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