Keto Diet
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
Fats are the first thing I increase, followed by fibrous vegetables, and a baked potato would be the first thing to go. We're all different it seems.
Yeah, I'm like psulemon. My discretionary calories tend to be fat -- I use/eat more cheese, am more liberal in how I use oil and butter in cooking, eat higher fat cuts of meat more frequently. I can change all of those things and decrease calories without making one iota of difference as to how filling my meals are, and only a little difference in taste which I can make up in other ways (more spicy foods, more vinegar/soy sauce, I probably use about the same amount of herbs and spices either way).
I do sub out starchy carbs for some non starchy vegetables (I eat a lot of non starchy veg anyway, but would probably eat even more), but sometimes I have fruit instead (so carbs for carbs). However, I typically will leave in some starchy carbs because I find potatoes and sweet potatoes satisfying, pasta just an easy base for a dinner, legumes to be an excellent source of fiber and protein as well as a starchy carb, and grains just occasionally satisfying/tasty/helpful if I have a high workout day (I often crave oatmeal after a morning run).
I also am more likely to choose fruit instead of cheese or ice cream as a dessert, both of which are lower carb/higher fat by comparison (I know you don't do sweets).
I think it's great that we are all different and would advise everyone to experiment with what works for them, but I get so annoyed with the idea (which I know you weren't expressing, but I think it is common among some on MFP) that "carbs" are unhealthy and that eating more fat is always more satiating or that cutting fat makes your diet unsatisfying. I like fat and wouldn't enjoy a super low fat diet for long (although it's one of many diets I could and would do if health reasons demanded, and I'd find a way to like it), but for me I get plenty without ever going out of my way to add extra fat in, and I don't believe that would make my particular diet more healthful or filling (for me, at least).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
Fats are the first thing I increase, followed by fibrous vegetables, and a baked potato would be the first thing to go. We're all different it seems.
Yeah, I'm like psulemon. My discretionary calories tend to be fat -- I use/eat more cheese, am more liberal in how I use oil and butter in cooking, eat higher fat cuts of meat more frequently. I can change all of those things and decrease calories without making one iota of difference as to how filling my meals are, and only a little difference in taste which I can make up in other ways (more spicy foods, more vinegar/soy sauce, I probably use about the same amount of herbs and spices either way).
I do sub out starchy carbs for some non starchy vegetables (I eat a lot of non starchy veg anyway, but would probably eat even more), but sometimes I have fruit instead (so carbs for carbs). However, I typically will leave in some starchy carbs because I find potatoes and sweet potatoes satisfying, pasta just an easy base for a dinner, legumes to be an excellent source of fiber and protein as well as a starchy carb, and grains just occasionally satisfying/tasty/helpful if I have a high workout day (I often crave oatmeal after a morning run).
I also am more likely to choose fruit instead of cheese or ice cream as a dessert, both of which are lower carb/higher fat by comparison (I know you don't do sweets).
I think it's great that we are all different and would advise everyone to experiment with what works for them, but I get so annoyed with the idea (which I know you weren't expressing, but I think it is common among some on MFP) that "carbs" are unhealthy and that eating more fat is always more satiating or that cutting fat makes your diet unsatisfying. I like fat and wouldn't enjoy a super low fat diet for long (although it's one of many diets I could and would do if health reasons demanded, and I'd find a way to like it), but for me I get plenty without ever going out of my way to add extra fat in, and I don't believe that would make my particular diet more healthful or filling (for me, at least).
As we all differ with food that satiate, we also differ with respect to what bugs us from the replies of others on MFP.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
Sloan Kettering is certainly not recommending a diet unlike that normally recommended for health, as you keep suggesting.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/nutrition-basics-survivors
"Eat at least 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Be sure to include deep yellow and orange vegetables and dark leafy greens.
If you drink alcohol, limit alcoholic drinks to no more than 1 drink a day for women and 2 drinks a day for men.
Limit your intake of red meat to less than 18 ounces per week and avoid processed and fatty meats such as canned ham (Spam®) and salami.
Choose healthy fats and limit intake of unhealthy fats.
Monitor your intake of salt and sodium.
Avoid foods that are smoked or pickled.
Choose and prepare foods and drinks with little added sugars and sweeteners.
Ask your healthcare provider for a referral to see a dietitian. He or she can help you create a healthy eating plan."
(For the record, I do most of that, but for the smoked/pickled one. Not currently planning to change, either. Life has risks and all that.)
The more detailed portion sounds more like Michael Pollan than, well, a carnivore:
"Choosing a Mostly Plant-Based Diet
The balance of foods on your plate is important when trying to eat healthy. Keep in mind the picture of the divided plate shown here. Follow the plate method below to portion out the different food groups on your plate.... Half of your plate should be colorful vegetables.... One-quarter of your plate should be complex carbohydrates (starches) or fruits...."
It goes on to recommend that non saturated fats be preferred to saturated and that red meat and processed meats be limited.
As for Dr. Thompson's talk, it is important not to forget that it was in the context of overeating and obesity. If you are going to be obese/overeat, he seems to think it is better for your cancer risk -- but (as he also says) not your heart disease risk, quite the opposite, so see your individual doctor -- to overeat fats and protein. Obviously there are many who would disagree, like T. Colin Campbell. There are also correlation studies showing that more fruit and veg tends to be correlated with reduced cancer risks.
Also, this is interesting: https://www.mskcc.org/blog/license-build-new-theory-cancer-puts-metabolism-center
From Dr. Pavlova who worked with Dr. Thompson on this study:
"Our bodies vigilantly monitor and correct the level of glucose in the blood, maintaining it within a very narrow range, more or less regardless of diet (except for pre-diabetics/diabetic patients)." [This means that altering your diet to reduce sugar, for example, will not significantly change the level of glucose in your blood.] "Excess sugar in diet may increase the risk of cancer in the long run by contributing to the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome, but the exact causative links are still being investigated and may include chronic systemic inflammation associated with obesity, changes in intestinal microbial composition, increased levels of insulin and other growth factors in addition to inefficient glucose control. But high sugar consumption per se would not cause our cells to divide improperly and grow into a tumor."
And from the hospital: "That said, eating a well-balanced diet that is low in added sugar and fat is recommended for health regardless of cancer status."0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
Sloan Kettering is certainly not recommending a diet unlike that normally recommended for health, as you keep suggesting.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/nutrition-basics-survivors
"Eat at least 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Be sure to include deep yellow and orange vegetables and dark leafy greens.
If you drink alcohol, limit alcoholic drinks to no more than 1 drink a day for women and 2 drinks a day for men.
Limit your intake of red meat to less than 18 ounces per week and avoid processed and fatty meats such as canned ham (Spam®) and salami.
Choose healthy fats and limit intake of unhealthy fats.
Monitor your intake of salt and sodium.
Avoid foods that are smoked or pickled.
Choose and prepare foods and drinks with little added sugars and sweeteners.
Ask your healthcare provider for a referral to see a dietitian. He or she can help you create a healthy eating plan."
(For the record, I do most of that, but for the smoked/pickled one. Not currently planning to change, either. Life has risks and all that.)
The more detailed portion sounds more like Michael Pollan than, well, a carnivore:
"Choosing a Mostly Plant-Based Diet
The balance of foods on your plate is important when trying to eat healthy. Keep in mind the picture of the divided plate shown here. Follow the plate method below to portion out the different food groups on your plate.... Half of your plate should be colorful vegetables.... One-quarter of your plate should be complex carbohydrates (starches) or fruits...."
It goes on to recommend that non saturated fats be preferred to saturated and that red meat and processed meats be limited.
As for Dr. Thompson's talk, it is important not to forget that it was in the context of overeating and obesity. If you are going to be obese/overeat, he seems to think it is better for your cancer risk -- but (as he also says) not your heart disease risk, quite the opposite, so see your individual doctor -- to overeat fats and protein. Obviously there are many who would disagree, like T. Colin Campbell. There are also correlation studies showing that more fruit and veg tends to be correlated with reduced cancer risks.
Also, this is interesting: https://www.mskcc.org/blog/license-build-new-theory-cancer-puts-metabolism-center
From Dr. Pavlova who worked with Dr. Thompson on this study:
"Our bodies vigilantly monitor and correct the level of glucose in the blood, maintaining it within a very narrow range, more or less regardless of diet (except for pre-diabetics/diabetic patients)." [This means that altering your diet to reduce sugar, for example, will not significantly change the level of glucose in your blood.] "Excess sugar in diet may increase the risk of cancer in the long run by contributing to the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome, but the exact causative links are still being investigated and may include chronic systemic inflammation associated with obesity, changes in intestinal microbial composition, increased levels of insulin and other growth factors in addition to inefficient glucose control. But high sugar consumption per se would not cause our cells to divide improperly and grow into a tumor."
And from the hospital: "That said, eating a well-balanced diet that is low in added sugar and fat is recommended for health regardless of cancer status."
Sounds like the original south beach diet to me.
Interesting that grains aren't mentioned at all.
this is, more or less, how I eat as well. Very Michael Pollan, you're right.
What's interesting is, within these parameters, one could be higher or lower carb if one wanted to.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
Fats are the first thing I increase, followed by fibrous vegetables, and a baked potato would be the first thing to go. We're all different it seems.
Yeah, I'm like psulemon. My discretionary calories tend to be fat -- I use/eat more cheese, am more liberal in how I use oil and butter in cooking, eat higher fat cuts of meat more frequently. I can change all of those things and decrease calories without making one iota of difference as to how filling my meals are, and only a little difference in taste which I can make up in other ways (more spicy foods, more vinegar/soy sauce, I probably use about the same amount of herbs and spices either way).
I do sub out starchy carbs for some non starchy vegetables (I eat a lot of non starchy veg anyway, but would probably eat even more), but sometimes I have fruit instead (so carbs for carbs). However, I typically will leave in some starchy carbs because I find potatoes and sweet potatoes satisfying, pasta just an easy base for a dinner, legumes to be an excellent source of fiber and protein as well as a starchy carb, and grains just occasionally satisfying/tasty/helpful if I have a high workout day (I often crave oatmeal after a morning run).
I also am more likely to choose fruit instead of cheese or ice cream as a dessert, both of which are lower carb/higher fat by comparison (I know you don't do sweets).
I think it's great that we are all different and would advise everyone to experiment with what works for them, but I get so annoyed with the idea (which I know you weren't expressing, but I think it is common among some on MFP) that "carbs" are unhealthy and that eating more fat is always more satiating or that cutting fat makes your diet unsatisfying. I like fat and wouldn't enjoy a super low fat diet for long (although it's one of many diets I could and would do if health reasons demanded, and I'd find a way to like it), but for me I get plenty without ever going out of my way to add extra fat in, and I don't believe that would make my particular diet more healthful or filling (for me, at least).
As we all differ with food that satiate, we also differ with respect to what bugs us from the replies of others on MFP.
This is true. Mysterious, but true. ;-)0 -
I have had success in the past 18 months starting with simply CICO and doing an overall reduction in calories and reduced fat. I have, however, found that eating LCHF is extremely beneficial with my hormonal issues; Hypothyroid, PCOS and Insulin Resistance. I found that while eating lower fat/moderate-high carb I needed to workout 60-90 min/day several days each week and was having to make sacrifices in my personal time. With LCHF I am losing weight at about the same rate but exercising 30-45 min/day several days each week. This has given me more of my family time back. I also find that I am much more satisfied and experience many fewer migraines, have increased energy, fewer food cravings and more balanced moods.
As said above, there are many different subsets to the LCHF/Keto way of eating. There is no reason that it can't be very heart healthy. People should do the research on both sides and determine what is best for them.3 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
Sloan Kettering is certainly not recommending a diet unlike that normally recommended for health, as you keep suggesting.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/nutrition-basics-survivors
"Eat at least 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Be sure to include deep yellow and orange vegetables and dark leafy greens.
If you drink alcohol, limit alcoholic drinks to no more than 1 drink a day for women and 2 drinks a day for men.
Limit your intake of red meat to less than 18 ounces per week and avoid processed and fatty meats such as canned ham (Spam®) and salami.
Choose healthy fats and limit intake of unhealthy fats.
Monitor your intake of salt and sodium.
Avoid foods that are smoked or pickled.
Choose and prepare foods and drinks with little added sugars and sweeteners.
Ask your healthcare provider for a referral to see a dietitian. He or she can help you create a healthy eating plan."
(For the record, I do most of that, but for the smoked/pickled one. Not currently planning to change, either. Life has risks and all that.)
The more detailed portion sounds more like Michael Pollan than, well, a carnivore:
"Choosing a Mostly Plant-Based Diet
The balance of foods on your plate is important when trying to eat healthy. Keep in mind the picture of the divided plate shown here. Follow the plate method below to portion out the different food groups on your plate.... Half of your plate should be colorful vegetables.... One-quarter of your plate should be complex carbohydrates (starches) or fruits...."
It goes on to recommend that non saturated fats be preferred to saturated and that red meat and processed meats be limited.
As for Dr. Thompson's talk, it is important not to forget that it was in the context of overeating and obesity. If you are going to be obese/overeat, he seems to think it is better for your cancer risk -- but (as he also says) not your heart disease risk, quite the opposite, so see your individual doctor -- to overeat fats and protein. Obviously there are many who would disagree, like T. Colin Campbell. There are also correlation studies showing that more fruit and veg tends to be correlated with reduced cancer risks.
Also, this is interesting: https://www.mskcc.org/blog/license-build-new-theory-cancer-puts-metabolism-center
From Dr. Pavlova who worked with Dr. Thompson on this study:
"Our bodies vigilantly monitor and correct the level of glucose in the blood, maintaining it within a very narrow range, more or less regardless of diet (except for pre-diabetics/diabetic patients)." [This means that altering your diet to reduce sugar, for example, will not significantly change the level of glucose in your blood.] "Excess sugar in diet may increase the risk of cancer in the long run by contributing to the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome, but the exact causative links are still being investigated and may include chronic systemic inflammation associated with obesity, changes in intestinal microbial composition, increased levels of insulin and other growth factors in addition to inefficient glucose control. But high sugar consumption per se would not cause our cells to divide improperly and grow into a tumor."
And from the hospital: "That said, eating a well-balanced diet that is low in added sugar and fat is recommended for health regardless of cancer status."
Sounds like the original south beach diet to me.
Interesting that grains aren't mentioned at all.
this is, more or less, how I eat as well. Very Michael Pollan, you're right.
What's interesting is, within these parameters, one could be higher or lower carb if one wanted to.
I tend to agree that you can follow the spirit of it with higher or lower carbs (and I tend to think carb percentage doesn't matter much, and that the research supports that). However, grains are covered in one quarter of the plate being complex carbs (starches) or fruits. Not that you have to eat grains -- of course you don't* -- but that they are one of many choices that can be part of a healthful diet and unlike sat fat and red meat, etc., are not warned against in general. (I mention this only because one current item of faith among some at MFP seems to be that grains are inherently bad** and that sat fat can never be overeaten and is basically a superfood.)
*I love pasta but will ditch bread and rice if cutting calories and eat it pretty rarely anyway, since I just don't care about them enough for it to be worth the calories, and unlike tubers and beans/lentils, I don't find them particularly satiating. I tend to enjoy a homemade burger without the bun just as much as with, turkey not in sandwich form, etc. But I also like pizza with a really well-made crust (and that means flour) so, eh, personal preference. (Also, corn in season is something I look forward to.) I don't think there's any need to eat grains for health and that on average Americans eat more than we need, probably. The high grain recommendations were probably based on it being a cheap staple and that being both important and healthful before overeating was so common. I'm sure my great grandparents ate more grains than I do, and that was fine for their lifestyles and other options/overall diet.
**Obviously they are inherently bad if someone has a negative reaction to them, as with any other food.0 -
To add to all this, what I dislike so in these discussions is the idea that "carbs" are bad and that craving "carbs" is a problem and that fewer "carbs" are always better when "carbs" is a very diverse category that includes foods like fruit, vegetables, and beans/lentils, as well as tubers, whole grains, and various foods that are less high in nutrients.
Over and over, people go on about "carbs" being bad and craving "carbs" and then when they identify the specifics it is either foods high in sugar (often sugary cereal or soda) or, even more commonly, foods that are as much fat as carbs: cake, ice cream, brownies, pizza, french fries, chips, etc. Those foods are (IMO) often craved because they are perceived to be super palatable, not because they are "carbs." If so, an easy response for a "carb" craving would be to eat a carrot or some cauliflower.*
*This was actually what I did when dealing with my snacking habit. I told myself "okay, you think you need to eat at 4 pm or even 10 pm, despite a perfectly filling breakfast? have some raw veg." It satisfied my desire to eat until a got over the desire to eat that was not actually related to hunger.0 -
I'm not going to go into fact-check mode here and have another debate about keto and low carb diets. It's obvious they work and are especially helpful to diabetics.
If you're looking for a keto community, there's a great low carb group here already linked above. The members are helpful and can help you with your questions. There's also a big following over on Reddit and Instagram, IG probably being one of my favorite resources since you can actually see what people are cooking. Feel free to add me and I can link you to some helpful resources, blogs etc!1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
Sloan Kettering is certainly not recommending a diet unlike that normally recommended for health, as you keep suggesting.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/nutrition-basics-survivors
"Eat at least 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Be sure to include deep yellow and orange vegetables and dark leafy greens.
If you drink alcohol, limit alcoholic drinks to no more than 1 drink a day for women and 2 drinks a day for men.
Limit your intake of red meat to less than 18 ounces per week and avoid processed and fatty meats such as canned ham (Spam®) and salami.
Choose healthy fats and limit intake of unhealthy fats.
Monitor your intake of salt and sodium.
Avoid foods that are smoked or pickled.
Choose and prepare foods and drinks with little added sugars and sweeteners.
Ask your healthcare provider for a referral to see a dietitian. He or she can help you create a healthy eating plan."
(For the record, I do most of that, but for the smoked/pickled one. Not currently planning to change, either. Life has risks and all that.)
The more detailed portion sounds more like Michael Pollan than, well, a carnivore:
"Choosing a Mostly Plant-Based Diet
The balance of foods on your plate is important when trying to eat healthy. Keep in mind the picture of the divided plate shown here. Follow the plate method below to portion out the different food groups on your plate.... Half of your plate should be colorful vegetables.... One-quarter of your plate should be complex carbohydrates (starches) or fruits...."
It goes on to recommend that non saturated fats be preferred to saturated and that red meat and processed meats be limited.
As for Dr. Thompson's talk, it is important not to forget that it was in the context of overeating and obesity. If you are going to be obese/overeat, he seems to think it is better for your cancer risk -- but (as he also says) not your heart disease risk, quite the opposite, so see your individual doctor -- to overeat fats and protein. Obviously there are many who would disagree, like T. Colin Campbell. There are also correlation studies showing that more fruit and veg tends to be correlated with reduced cancer risks.
Also, this is interesting: https://www.mskcc.org/blog/license-build-new-theory-cancer-puts-metabolism-center
From Dr. Pavlova who worked with Dr. Thompson on this study:
"Our bodies vigilantly monitor and correct the level of glucose in the blood, maintaining it within a very narrow range, more or less regardless of diet (except for pre-diabetics/diabetic patients)." [This means that altering your diet to reduce sugar, for example, will not significantly change the level of glucose in your blood.] "Excess sugar in diet may increase the risk of cancer in the long run by contributing to the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome, but the exact causative links are still being investigated and may include chronic systemic inflammation associated with obesity, changes in intestinal microbial composition, increased levels of insulin and other growth factors in addition to inefficient glucose control. But high sugar consumption per se would not cause our cells to divide improperly and grow into a tumor."
And from the hospital: "That said, eating a well-balanced diet that is low in added sugar and fat is recommended for health regardless of cancer status."
Sounds like the original south beach diet to me.
Interesting that grains aren't mentioned at all.
this is, more or less, how I eat as well. Very Michael Pollan, you're right.
What's interesting is, within these parameters, one could be higher or lower carb if one wanted to.
I tend to agree that you can follow the spirit of it with higher or lower carbs (and I tend to think carb percentage doesn't matter much, and that the research supports that). However, grains are covered in one quarter of the plate being complex carbs (starches) or fruits. Not that you have to eat grains -- of course you don't* -- but that they are one of many choices that can be part of a healthful diet and unlike sat fat and red meat, etc., are not warned against in general. (I mention this only because one current item of faith among some at MFP seems to be that grains are inherently bad** and that sat fat can never be overeaten and is basically a superfood.)
*I love pasta but will ditch bread and rice if cutting calories and eat it pretty rarely anyway, since I just don't care about them enough for it to be worth the calories, and unlike tubers and beans/lentils, I don't find them particularly satiating. I tend to enjoy a homemade burger without the bun just as much as with, turkey not in sandwich form, etc. But I also like pizza with a really well-made crust (and that means flour) so, eh, personal preference. (Also, corn in season is something I look forward to.) I don't think there's any need to eat grains for health and that on average Americans eat more than we need, probably. The high grain recommendations were probably based on it being a cheap staple and that being both important and healthful before overeating was so common. I'm sure my great grandparents ate more grains than I do, and that was fine for their lifestyles and other options/overall diet.
**Obviously they are inherently bad if someone has a negative reaction to them, as with any other food.
Hmm. never seen sat fat as a superfood here.
Are grains mentioned there? I must have missed that. I didn't see grains mentioned, or dairy, in what you posted. Perhaps I missed it.
I've always found it odd that grains have been something to strive to eat more of...why grains? Why not greens? I think it's interesting that "eat more whole grains" is rarely interpreted by folks as "eat more whole grains than not whole grains". Instead folks tend to read it as "eat more whole grains than you used to eat (grains) before".0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »To add to all this, what I dislike so in these discussions is the idea that "carbs" are bad and that craving "carbs" is a problem and that fewer "carbs" are always better when "carbs" is a very diverse category that includes foods like fruit, vegetables, and beans/lentils, as well as tubers, whole grains, and various foods that are less high in nutrients.
Over and over, people go on about "carbs" being bad and craving "carbs" and then when they identify the specifics it is either foods high in sugar (often sugary cereal or soda) or, even more commonly, foods that are as much fat as carbs: cake, ice cream, brownies, pizza, french fries, chips, etc. Those foods are (IMO) often craved because they are perceived to be super palatable, not because they are "carbs." If so, an easy response for a "carb" craving would be to eat a carrot or some cauliflower.*
*This was actually what I did when dealing with my snacking habit. I told myself "okay, you think you need to eat at 4 pm or even 10 pm, despite a perfectly filling breakfast? have some raw veg." It satisfied my desire to eat until a got over the desire to eat that was not actually related to hunger.
Cheers.0 -
I'm not going to go into fact-check mode here and have another debate about keto and low carb diets. It's obvious they work and are especially helpful to diabetics.
If you're looking for a keto community, there's a great low carb group here already linked above. The members are helpful and can help you with your questions. There's also a big following over on Reddit and Instagram, IG probably being one of my favorite resources since you can actually see what people are cooking. Feel free to add me and I can link you to some helpful resources, blogs etc!
Your statement I bolded above is, ironically, quite bold. I would temper that and say that low carb and even ketogenic diets CAN work, but not that it is obvious that they work as there are many people who find low carb to be unsustainable.
I do agree that OP should explore the low carb group here on MFP to ask questions of people who find this approach a good fit for them, but I also recommend anyone exploring a new dietary approach to make sure that they believe this is something they can adhere to for the long term and not something they view as a temporary solution.0 -
I see Keto as a magnetic compass. It can be a useful tool in certain places but it is NOT a solution that will work anywhere in the universe for every intelligent life form.
CICO, etc, etc are the same way. At 65 I am not sure I have found even one universal truth.
Absolute ZERO is still not a fact but a theory just as are all posts about dieting. There is evidence that leans one way or another about different ways of eating but there is NO proof that one way of eating is universal best for all humans.
livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html
We do not discuss politics and religion with GOOD cause on MFP but in the end science does not offer concrete info that is universally accepted by the MD's and other holders of terminal health related degrees as how to eat.
Ways Of Eating are more kin to business, politics and religion than science in the end. I will work to look at all of the evidence about different WOE's but not eat this way or that way on the advice of another man or woman for the above reasons. There is no total valid research that I have found on how to universally eat period. The only food that comes close to being banned in the name of good health MAY be highly processed foods and that is not likely to happen because of the money men as you can read below. Carbs, proteins and fats have been awesome human food sources since recorded history. The macros of these that work best for man are many and varied.
nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html?_r=1
0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I see Keto as a magnetic compass. It can be a useful tool in certain places but it is NOT a solution that will work anywhere in the universe for every intelligent life form.
CICO, etc, etc are the same way. At 65 I am not sure I have found even one universal truth.
Absolute ZERO is still not a fact but a theory just as are all posts about dieting. There is evidence that leans one way or another about different ways of eating but there is NO proof that one way of eating is universal best for all humans.
livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html
We do not discuss politics and religion with GOOD cause on MFP but in the end science does not offer concrete info that is universally accepted by the MD's and other holders of terminal health related degrees as how to eat.
Ways Of Eating are more kin to business, politics and religion than science in the end. I will work to look at all of the evidence about different WOE's but not eat this way or that way on the advice of another man or woman for the above reasons. There is no total valid research that I have found on how to universally eat period. The only food that comes close to being banned in the name of good health MAY be highly processed foods and that is not likely to happen because of the money men as you can read below. Carbs, proteins and fats have been awesome human food sources since recorded history. The macros of these that work best for man are many and varied.
nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html?_r=1
CICO isn't a tool. It's more like an explanation of how weight loss/gain happens.1 -
It works, I would just read up on the latest studies around processed and red meat.0
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »Shadowmf023 wrote: »If interested in trying a lower-carbohydrate diet, try to include some fruits, vegetables, and whole grains for essential vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
If you do decide to follow a higher-protein, lower-carbohydrate eating plan, choose the healthiest sources of protein possible. Remember that limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat—and choosing healthier high-protein foods in their place, such as fish, chicken, beans, or nuts—will help the heart and the waistline.
Research shows that a moderately low-carbohydrate diet can help the heart, as long as protein and fat selections come from healthy sources.
Learn more about healthy Low-Carbohydrate Diets: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/low-carbohydrate-diets/
Fruits, whole grains, and beans are not low carb. They are moderate carb. My goal is 50g carbs a day. And I certainly won't spend them all on one measly serving of brown rice or something. There are vegetables that have far less carbs, and far more nutrients than rice.
Whole grains: quinoa, millet, amaranth, Barley (hulled), Wheat berries, etc.
What’s most important is the type of carbohydrate you choose to eat because some sources are healthier than ]others. The amount of carbohydrate in the diet – high or low – is less important than the type of carbohydrate in the diet. For example, healthy, whole grains such as whole wheat bread, rye, barley and quinoa are better choices than highly refined white bread or French fries.
Many people are confused about carbohydrates, but keep in mind that it’s more important to eat carbohydrates from healthy foods than to follow a strict diet limiting or counting the number of grams of carbohydrates consumed.
The healthiest sources of carbohydrates—unprocessed or minimally processed whole grains, vegetables, fruits and beans—promote good health by delivering vitamins, minerals, fiber, and a host of important phytonutrients.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Fiber is important for your digestive health as well as regulating blood glucose. Foods with fiber, such as broccoli, beans, and apples with the skin, 100% whole-wheat bread take longer to be digested, so glucose is released into the bloodstream slowly. Isn't that the point of Low carb? To regulate glucose?
I think most people find success with low carb diets because they make a correlation with the diet and with weight lose and don't look at the facts. I think low carb cuts out alot of junk food, processed foods and refined sugars by limiting the amount of refined carbohydrates, such as white rice and white pasta, which have had their fiber and nutrients removed. Also low carb diets helps with calorie restriction for the same reason, it cuts out alot of high calorie low nutrient foods. I think anyone that eats this way is going to lose weight and eat healthier but not because it is low carb but because they are restricting their calories.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/
Whole grains still cause a spike in glucose.
Low carb works because fat is satiating.
Cuts out high calorie, low nutrient foods? ... Do you realize that fat is higher in calories than carbs and protein?
There isn't universally true. It appears there are a subset of people who are satiated by fat and others by carbs. I am the latter.
That is why when one tells another to eat/don't eat this way or that way on social media they have crossed the line of common sense. After 63 years I learned carbs are not my friend. @psulemon reports carbs work fine for him however. Simple process of elimination is all that I had to do learn where my body preferred carbs or fats.
Fats are actually the first thing i cut when i am losing weight. They are expensive and have no impact on my appetite. I increase protein, fiber and starches. For me the meal with the highest satiety is a sirloin and baked potato (with a little butter but its equal without). Also, my body just doesn't respond well to low carb diets. My exercise goes down the crapper and energy is terrible, even with my normal sodium levels of about 4 to 5k.
@psulemon I understand you are different from myself and some of the others. I am glad I can lose weight and cut my risks of cancer at the same time by replacing most of my carbs with fats and cut my overeating automatically.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUlE1VHGA40
Make sure and catch the last 30 seconds when Dr. Thompson talks have how many vitamins to take. Carbs causing cancer risks to increase starts at 25:00 in the video.
Sloan Kettering is certainly not recommending a diet unlike that normally recommended for health, as you keep suggesting.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/nutrition-basics-survivors
"Eat at least 5 or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Be sure to include deep yellow and orange vegetables and dark leafy greens.
If you drink alcohol, limit alcoholic drinks to no more than 1 drink a day for women and 2 drinks a day for men.
Limit your intake of red meat to less than 18 ounces per week and avoid processed and fatty meats such as canned ham (Spam®) and salami.
Choose healthy fats and limit intake of unhealthy fats.
Monitor your intake of salt and sodium.
Avoid foods that are smoked or pickled.
Choose and prepare foods and drinks with little added sugars and sweeteners.
Ask your healthcare provider for a referral to see a dietitian. He or she can help you create a healthy eating plan."
(For the record, I do most of that, but for the smoked/pickled one. Not currently planning to change, either. Life has risks and all that.)
The more detailed portion sounds more like Michael Pollan than, well, a carnivore:
"Choosing a Mostly Plant-Based Diet
The balance of foods on your plate is important when trying to eat healthy. Keep in mind the picture of the divided plate shown here. Follow the plate method below to portion out the different food groups on your plate.... Half of your plate should be colorful vegetables.... One-quarter of your plate should be complex carbohydrates (starches) or fruits...."
It goes on to recommend that non saturated fats be preferred to saturated and that red meat and processed meats be limited.
As for Dr. Thompson's talk, it is important not to forget that it was in the context of overeating and obesity. If you are going to be obese/overeat, he seems to think it is better for your cancer risk -- but (as he also says) not your heart disease risk, quite the opposite, so see your individual doctor -- to overeat fats and protein. Obviously there are many who would disagree, like T. Colin Campbell. There are also correlation studies showing that more fruit and veg tends to be correlated with reduced cancer risks.
Also, this is interesting: https://www.mskcc.org/blog/license-build-new-theory-cancer-puts-metabolism-center
From Dr. Pavlova who worked with Dr. Thompson on this study:
"Our bodies vigilantly monitor and correct the level of glucose in the blood, maintaining it within a very narrow range, more or less regardless of diet (except for pre-diabetics/diabetic patients)." [This means that altering your diet to reduce sugar, for example, will not significantly change the level of glucose in your blood.] "Excess sugar in diet may increase the risk of cancer in the long run by contributing to the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome, but the exact causative links are still being investigated and may include chronic systemic inflammation associated with obesity, changes in intestinal microbial composition, increased levels of insulin and other growth factors in addition to inefficient glucose control. But high sugar consumption per se would not cause our cells to divide improperly and grow into a tumor."
And from the hospital: "That said, eating a well-balanced diet that is low in added sugar and fat is recommended for health regardless of cancer status."
Sounds like the original south beach diet to me.
Interesting that grains aren't mentioned at all.
this is, more or less, how I eat as well. Very Michael Pollan, you're right.
What's interesting is, within these parameters, one could be higher or lower carb if one wanted to.
I tend to agree that you can follow the spirit of it with higher or lower carbs (and I tend to think carb percentage doesn't matter much, and that the research supports that). However, grains are covered in one quarter of the plate being complex carbs (starches) or fruits. Not that you have to eat grains -- of course you don't* -- but that they are one of many choices that can be part of a healthful diet and unlike sat fat and red meat, etc., are not warned against in general. (I mention this only because one current item of faith among some at MFP seems to be that grains are inherently bad** and that sat fat can never be overeaten and is basically a superfood.)
*I love pasta but will ditch bread and rice if cutting calories and eat it pretty rarely anyway, since I just don't care about them enough for it to be worth the calories, and unlike tubers and beans/lentils, I don't find them particularly satiating. I tend to enjoy a homemade burger without the bun just as much as with, turkey not in sandwich form, etc. But I also like pizza with a really well-made crust (and that means flour) so, eh, personal preference. (Also, corn in season is something I look forward to.) I don't think there's any need to eat grains for health and that on average Americans eat more than we need, probably. The high grain recommendations were probably based on it being a cheap staple and that being both important and healthful before overeating was so common. I'm sure my great grandparents ate more grains than I do, and that was fine for their lifestyles and other options/overall diet.
**Obviously they are inherently bad if someone has a negative reaction to them, as with any other food.
Hmm. never seen sat fat as a superfood here.
Are grains mentioned there? I must have missed that. I didn't see grains mentioned, or dairy, in what you posted. Perhaps I missed it.
Like I said above, grains are included in the complex carb category. (The site even helpfully says "starches" to prevent the occasional misunderstanding of what complex carbs are.)I've always found it odd that grains have been something to strive to eat more of...why grains? Why not greens? I think it's interesting that "eat more whole grains" is rarely interpreted by folks as "eat more whole grains than not whole grains". Instead folks tend to read it as "eat more whole grains than you used to eat (grains) before".
My view, as noted above, is that the focus on grains is because back in the day getting enough calories was a concern and green vegetables were expensive for the calories. So they went with what seems to be common across many cultures, including blue zones -- a complex carb as a dietary base. In some places it's rice. In the US, given the mix of cultures that were the main settlers of the country through the 19th century, it was grains, potatoes, or a combination.
I agree that eating more grains is hardly something one needs to strive for and that the nutrition advice to focus on whole grains means instead of refined grains, not in lieu of vegetables. However, it's also related to the idea that one can get protein from plant food, which include a mix of legumes, grains, and others, and that it's not ideal to rely on animal foods as heavily as people in the US do on average. Usually people are ALSO advised to eat more non starchy veg, especially greens. At least that's what I see in mainstream nutrition advice. (I am on the "grains are fine but usually overrated nutritionally and in terms of the value per calories for me" bandwagon myself, or was until we started approaching peak anti-carb and anti-gluten. Now I kind of want to fall in love with seitan just because I think gluten is unfairly maligned by many non celiacs. And I know that gluten is a protein, of course.)
On sat fat as a superfood, we can agree again that we have different sorts of comments stick out to us. ;-) I see lots of comments that insist that carbs are bad, bad, very bad, whereas a healthful diet should include max sat fat or when someone asks what a "healthy fat" is supposed to be gets answers like the fat in red meat, butter, cheese. I'm as fond as dairy fat and steak as the next person, but that's NOT what's meant, of course, in lists like the one at Sloan Kettering.0
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