Opinion from the serious lifters
chapiano
Posts: 331 Member
B/B upright Row
D/B Fly
Having read conflicting articles on the benefit vs risk of these 2 lifts, I am leaning towards removing them all together.
Would be interested on the opinions of the MFP lifting community?
D/B Fly
Having read conflicting articles on the benefit vs risk of these 2 lifts, I am leaning towards removing them all together.
Would be interested on the opinions of the MFP lifting community?
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Replies
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Rows: absolutely, positively, DO NOT neglect them. "Weak" back sucks. It doesn't have to be barbell rows, but do some sort of row. I'm not aware of any inherent risk with barbell rows that is greater than that of any other lift. Keep your form and progress as you can.
Flyes: I rarely do them. Those are mostly (not entirely) a cosmetic lift, and I'm not concerned with aesthetics. In fact, I don't do very many isolation exercises in the first place.
Of course, the usual question applies: what is/are your goal(s)?2 -
I'm curious to hear what more experienced lifters think about barbell rows. I was looking for form videos yesterday and came across a couple of discussions of pros and cons of doing barbell rows. Mark Rippetoe (whose videos have really helped me) was very clear --- "f@ck barbell rows." As I understood it, he thinks they are at best an accessory lift and that they don't help much. Another article comparing them to power cleans concluded that bb rows are good for building muscle mass and strength. I know nothing about Olympic lifts, so the compare and contrast with power cleans mostly went over my head.
My issue with bb rows is the temptation to pull more weight by cheating on form, and I have real trouble knowing how I'm doing -- am I really getting stronger, or am I just cheating without realizing it? I'm doing SL5x5 and I'm at 165 for rows. I have not progressed since I first reached that weight 6 weeks ago, although I have deloaded and played with form. At about 155 or 160, my form is good and I knock out 5 sets quickly. At 165, I feel like my form abruptly goes to hell and I am cheating my later reps, even when I rest longer. I'm not really sure how to get past this point.
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What is your problem with barbell rows? Is it concern about lower back fatigue? You could try chest supported rows if that is the case.
Dumbbell fly--what's the concern with these? This is one I've never read as being problematic.1 -
I am on a cut with a pretty basic strength training routine 3 times a week.
These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
Also applies to any behind the neck lift and some wide grip lifts.0 -
I like barbell rows. Wouldn't ever get rid of them I don't think. As for flys, I use the cable machine and light weight in the 15/20 rep range doing really only 3/4 range of motion just to pump the chest more at the end of a chest day.0
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I am on a cut with a pretty basic strength training routine 3 times a week.
These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
Also applies to any behind the neck lift and some wide grip lifts.
That really only happens if your form is bad. Given that concern, I'd be more worried about bench and OHP.
In short, as I mentioned in my first post - keep your form good for all lifts. And keep up mobility work, too.1 -
B/B Row
D/B Fly
Having read conflicting articles on the benefit vs risk of these 2 lifts, I am leaning towards removing them all together.
Would be interested on the opinions of the MFP lifting community?
B/B Row if performed correctly is a great exercise to include in your training. Are you sure you are not confusing this with the upright row? There are many articles and studies suggesting that it does more damage than good.
D/B Flies I have performed for years and never read anything bad about them, what is it you've seen?0 -
Yep my bad, up right row!0
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I am on a cut with a pretty basic strength training routine 3 times a week.
These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
Also applies to any behind the neck lift and some wide grip lifts.
That really only happens if your form is bad. Given that concern, I'd be more worried about bench and OHP.
In short, as I mentioned in my first post - keep your form good for all lifts. And keep up mobility work, too.
@chapiano I would second the above. If you have shoulder problems at the moment, leave out OHP. I have tendinitis in my shoulder at the moment and my physio has told me to take them out. I find body rows very good. Wide or narrow grip and put your feet/legs on a bench or to make it harder, a stability ball.0 -
am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?1
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Regarding upright rows, my ortho told me to stay light, keep hands below elbows, and keep elbows below shoulders. I have had many RC tears over the years, but this technique has never bothered my shoulders. I still do them today with a barbell. McDonald talks about it here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/are-upright-rows-safe-qa.html/
Arnold Schwarzenegger claimed that flies were an important contributor to his chest development. In my personal experience, I would agree, although I don't think they did much for strength, even when I used to go really heavy.1 -
Klokov presses. That is all. Prevents putting the shoulder in a crappy position, while still beating the crap out of them. Hit them for reps and feel the fire in the delts.0
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I haven't done either uprights or DB flys in a couple decades.
I get plenty of work from bigger lifts and less stress on my joints which are more problematic these days so they are not for me.2 -
I've done upright rows for years and never had any problems. Many people have problems with impingement because they're raising their elbows above their shoulders thinking that the extra motion will create more of a squeeze in the delt. Don't do it. I've never heard of flies ever causing a problem in the rotator, maybe some tears in the pectoral. Many lifters just stick to the compound lifts, especially those that are just looking for strength and growth. I love DB's specifically because I'm looking for aesthetics and don't particular care about being able to bench press a truck.0
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Up right row: I don't like those and rarely do em. DB fly's: I keep it light and go high rep on those.
Barbell row: One of my favorite lifts! Row, row, row to grow!1 -
Many of you are confusing upright BB rows with bent rows. The upright rows work your delts and traps, not your back.
I do them occasionally, but feel I already hit the delt head and traps adequately through lateral/front raises, power cleans and shrugs.
I like DB flyes because I can get a deep stretch at the bottom of the movement. I'll alternate them with cable flyes, which hit the pec squeeze at the top of the movement better.1 -
Some sources will say upright rows are rough on the shoulder joints. Example: https://www.t-nation.com/training/five-exercises-you-should-stop-doing-forever1
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I am on a cut with a pretty basic strength training routine 3 times a week.
These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
Also applies to any behind the neck lift and some wide grip lifts.
I agree with behind the neck motions can cause impingement. It feels unnatural to me anyhow. I know some will say form is key but I disagree. I see people doing weighted pull downs all the time behind the neck. Sometimes I ask what is the value of behind neck vs in front. Most have no reason.
unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I dont do BB rows (never have) nor flies (any longer). I use plate load machines for most of those activities and dumbells for rowing. The supported chest rows is a great recommendation from another poster.
good luck with the cut. I hate cuts as I feel I lose too much strength when doing them. I'm at a point now where the weight is where I am happy so I am at maintenance and pushing a little to gain strength and size.
I dont think Ill ever "bulk" again as I don't personally see great value in it at my age and dare I say my genetics.
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Many of you are confusing upright BB rows with bent rows. The upright rows work your delts and traps, not your back.
I do them occasionally, but feel I already hit the delt head and traps adequately through lateral/front raises, power cleans and shrugs.
I like DB flyes because I can get a deep stretch at the bottom of the movement. I'll alternate them with cable flyes, which hit the pec squeeze at the top of the movement better.
No one is confused (well the OP was I guess) but the original post referenced the barbell row before being edited. Hence, you are seeing replies to both.0 -
You can substitute the upright row with the high pull, particularly DB version, and get the same results without compromising the shoulder so I would go with those. Flies are ok if you keep your elbows bent and don't go past 180 degrees to your shoulder joint; you don't need to do the deep stretch, but it's safer just to do a DB press bringing the arms in if you have any doubts.0
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These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
If done correctly, and you have no pre-existing shoulder problems, they should be fine. But i'd do a machine pec fly, because of the smoother resistance curve. And dumbbell side raises will hit the lateral deltoids better, if that's what you're trying to do.Mark Rippetoe (whose videos have really helped me) was very clear --- "f@ck barbell rows." As I understood it, he thinks they are at best an accessory lift and that they don't help much. Another article comparing them to power cleans concluded that bb rows are good for building muscle mass and strength.
Obviously rows can build mass & strength. In terms of functionality, the rowing movement is much more likely to be encountered outside the gym than flinging something vertically from the floor up to your shoulders. The power clean is a specialized, advanced exercise that shouldn't be in a book called "Starting Strength".
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Cherimoose wrote: »These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
If done correctly, and you have no pre-existing shoulder problems, they should be fine. But i'd do a machine pec fly, because of the smoother resistance curve. And dumbbell side raises will hit the lateral deltoids better, if that's what you're trying to do.Mark Rippetoe (whose videos have really helped me) was very clear --- "f@ck barbell rows." As I understood it, he thinks they are at best an accessory lift and that they don't help much. Another article comparing them to power cleans concluded that bb rows are good for building muscle mass and strength.
Obviously rows can build mass & strength. In terms of functionality, the rowing movement is much more likely to be encountered outside the gym than flinging something vertically from the floor up to your shoulders. The power clean is a specialized, advanced exercise that shouldn't be in a book called "Starting Strength".
Power cleans are highly technical lifts but for a strength coach they are the lift that helps link lifting strength to speed and explosive power performance in athletics so I think that's probably why. High pulls would be a more natural analogy to actually hoisting of something over your shoulder since people will tend to throw the weight in front of them. I guess KB swings would be something else that is close to that and much more natural than the upright row. I would avoid that exercise if you have any type of shoulder impingement at all.0 -
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.2 -
I don't do upright rows at all. Nothing causes a flare of my neck injury worse.
Flies, every once in a while they get out in my programming and it's an okay switch up. But not something I'd choose to do.0 -
_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
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_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
helpful is subjective buddy0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
Truth. Which is why I don't do cleans. Only the occasional snatch1 -
Willbenchforcupcakes wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
Truth. Which is why I don't do cleans. Only the occasional snatch
Your dentist will love you.
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