Opinion from the serious lifters
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You can substitute the upright row with the high pull, particularly DB version, and get the same results without compromising the shoulder so I would go with those. Flies are ok if you keep your elbows bent and don't go past 180 degrees to your shoulder joint; you don't need to do the deep stretch, but it's safer just to do a DB press bringing the arms in if you have any doubts.0
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These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
If done correctly, and you have no pre-existing shoulder problems, they should be fine. But i'd do a machine pec fly, because of the smoother resistance curve. And dumbbell side raises will hit the lateral deltoids better, if that's what you're trying to do.Mark Rippetoe (whose videos have really helped me) was very clear --- "f@ck barbell rows." As I understood it, he thinks they are at best an accessory lift and that they don't help much. Another article comparing them to power cleans concluded that bb rows are good for building muscle mass and strength.
Obviously rows can build mass & strength. In terms of functionality, the rowing movement is much more likely to be encountered outside the gym than flinging something vertically from the floor up to your shoulders. The power clean is a specialized, advanced exercise that shouldn't be in a book called "Starting Strength".
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Cherimoose wrote: »These lifts have been blamed for putting the shoulder in an unnatural position causing "shoulder/rotator cuff at risk of impingement"
If done correctly, and you have no pre-existing shoulder problems, they should be fine. But i'd do a machine pec fly, because of the smoother resistance curve. And dumbbell side raises will hit the lateral deltoids better, if that's what you're trying to do.Mark Rippetoe (whose videos have really helped me) was very clear --- "f@ck barbell rows." As I understood it, he thinks they are at best an accessory lift and that they don't help much. Another article comparing them to power cleans concluded that bb rows are good for building muscle mass and strength.
Obviously rows can build mass & strength. In terms of functionality, the rowing movement is much more likely to be encountered outside the gym than flinging something vertically from the floor up to your shoulders. The power clean is a specialized, advanced exercise that shouldn't be in a book called "Starting Strength".
Power cleans are highly technical lifts but for a strength coach they are the lift that helps link lifting strength to speed and explosive power performance in athletics so I think that's probably why. High pulls would be a more natural analogy to actually hoisting of something over your shoulder since people will tend to throw the weight in front of them. I guess KB swings would be something else that is close to that and much more natural than the upright row. I would avoid that exercise if you have any type of shoulder impingement at all.0 -
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.2 -
I don't do upright rows at all. Nothing causes a flare of my neck injury worse.
Flies, every once in a while they get out in my programming and it's an okay switch up. But not something I'd choose to do.0 -
_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
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_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
helpful is subjective buddy0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
Truth. Which is why I don't do cleans. Only the occasional snatch1 -
Willbenchforcupcakes wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »_incogNEATo_ wrote: »
I don't think I've EVER seen you offer helpful advice. Are you aware of the "Chit-Chat" and "Fun & Games" portion of this site?am serious lifter must do leg press best lift you do?
OP, those Klokov Presses that @Gallowmere1984 mentioned are no joke, but very effective. High pulls and upright rows: keep the bar at or below your nipples. No kidding, I saw a guy split his jaw open doing high pulls with a barbell and lighter weights.
Nailing yourself in the jaw with a high pull or clean is kind of a right of passage in Olympic lifting lol.
Truth. Which is why I don't do cleans. Only the occasional snatch
Your dentist will love you.
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lol0
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »You can substitute the upright row with the high pull, particularly DB version, and get the same results without compromising the shoulder so I would go with those. Flies are ok if you keep your elbows bent and don't go past 180 degrees to your shoulder joint; you don't need to do the deep stretch, but it's safer just to do a DB press bringing the arms in if you have any doubts.
I'm with you on the high pull (wider grip), seems to eliminate (for me at least) the risk of putting my shoulders in a dangerous position. As has been mentioned, depends on OP's goals. For me, being relatively new to the iron game, strength and form are paramount. Using a slightly modified SL5x5 protocol to gain strength and lose weight.0 -
I don't do BB rows very often...I do cleans and I do snatches and for accessory work I do either DB rows or cable rows...for more rear delt work I do face pulls. I don't do DB fly very often as it irritates my shoulders...when I do I keep them light.0
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