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What's the flaw in this regimen? [long plateau]
43501
Posts: 85 Member
Hey message boards. I've been stuck at my current weight for about 6-7 months and looking for some advice on changes to make. I thought my routine was pretty well-researched and composed, but clearly there's some fault in it since I've been stalled for so long.
My stats:
> female, 25 y/o, extremely sedentary (desk job) during the day
> Current body stats: 163cm tall (5'3"), 58kg (128lb), 28% BFP
> Desired/Goals: 53kg (116lb) with ~21% BFP
Current health/diet/exercise regimen:
> between 1000 - 1200 net calories a day, focus on quality protein, good fats and veg
(no cheat meals/days planned, but according to reports I go over limit maybe 4 days a month)
> 1.5 ~ 2L water daily
> weights routine 3 times a week (Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength, modified slightly to rely more on machines than free weights because I'm just not that strong)
> HIIT 2-3 times a week between weights days, usually Tabata Intervals
> steady state cardio/LISS once a week, if I can manage it -- I like to hike/go on long walks (2-3 hr) but the weather has been garbage lately
> sleep fluctuates wildly but is usually between 7-9 hr
Last time I hit a plateau at 61kg 4chan's /fit/ board unanimously said "hey, you're a tiny and really sedentary woman, 1400 - 1600 calories is too much, drop it down to 1000 - 1200". I followed that advice and dropped another 4kg over a few months and now I'm stuck again.
I'm not willing to drop my calorie intake below 1k, so where do I go from here? Any advice?
My stats:
> female, 25 y/o, extremely sedentary (desk job) during the day
> Current body stats: 163cm tall (5'3"), 58kg (128lb), 28% BFP
> Desired/Goals: 53kg (116lb) with ~21% BFP
Current health/diet/exercise regimen:
> between 1000 - 1200 net calories a day, focus on quality protein, good fats and veg
(no cheat meals/days planned, but according to reports I go over limit maybe 4 days a month)
> 1.5 ~ 2L water daily
> weights routine 3 times a week (Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength, modified slightly to rely more on machines than free weights because I'm just not that strong)
> HIIT 2-3 times a week between weights days, usually Tabata Intervals
> steady state cardio/LISS once a week, if I can manage it -- I like to hike/go on long walks (2-3 hr) but the weather has been garbage lately
> sleep fluctuates wildly but is usually between 7-9 hr
Last time I hit a plateau at 61kg 4chan's /fit/ board unanimously said "hey, you're a tiny and really sedentary woman, 1400 - 1600 calories is too much, drop it down to 1000 - 1200". I followed that advice and dropped another 4kg over a few months and now I'm stuck again.
I'm not willing to drop my calorie intake below 1k, so where do I go from here? Any advice?
0
Replies
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No never increase your deficit further. You are at the very bottom of the recommended intake to lose weight.
It appears that this very low calorie intake has possibly caused you to plateau, but before that can be determined:
1) How are you measuring your food intake here on MFP? Do you use a food scale to weigh and measure the 1000 to 1200 calories?
2) Do you track exercise? If so do you eat back any exercise calorie burns?
3) Are there any medical issues or medications that you take?2 -
How many calories are you eating, not netting?4
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Between 1000 and 1200 calorie per day looks about right considering your age, height, weight and activities so I wold be looking at logging inaccuracies as the first place to investigate.2
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No never increase your deficit further. You are at the very bottom of the recommended intake to lose weight.
It appears that this very low calorie intake has possibly caused you to plateau, but before that can be determined:
1) How are you measuring your food intake here on MFP? Do you use a food scale to weigh and measure the 1000 to 1200 calories?
2) Do you track exercise? If so do you eat back any exercise calorie burns?
3) Are there any medical issues or medications that you take?
Yeah, at this point I wouldn't drop it any further and I do worry that the bird-worthy diet might've caused it, but the same people who suggested the drop also generally believe "starvation mode" or whatever to be a myth. I've heard so many conflicting accounts on that that I just don't know what holds true anymore.
1) Yeah. I mostly prepare my own food so I weigh everything (by ingredient) on an electronic kitchen scale. Things like rice are weighed dry before they're cooked, not after. If I'm eating something from a packet or tin I'll input the data on the label.
2) I do, and yes, which is why I provided net cals rather than cals eaten.
3) Nope.How many calories are you eating, not netting?
I had to go and check my reports on this since I focus a lot on the net. Over the last 3 months most days the calories I actually ate were between 1,300 and 1,400 in a day.
I've only had 1,500 or more 2 days in the last 90 days.0 -
You could use this time to recomp during the stall. Plus since you are sedentary, then perhaps you could up daily activity level a smidgen at the same time so you won't have to go even lower in calories? Find ways in your everyday life like taking stairs instead of elevator, park further away, stand and pace a bit during work breaks, etc. Those are easy things that are not too hard to implement.1
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No never increase your deficit further. You are at the very bottom of the recommended intake to lose weight.
It appears that this very low calorie intake has possibly caused you to plateau, but before that can be determined:
1) How are you measuring your food intake here on MFP? Do you use a food scale to weigh and measure the 1000 to 1200 calories?
2) Do you track exercise? If so do you eat back any exercise calorie burns?
3) Are there any medical issues or medications that you take?
Yeah, at this point I wouldn't drop it any further and I do worry that the bird-worthy diet might've caused it, but the same people who suggested the drop also generally believe "starvation mode" or whatever to be a myth. I've heard so many conflicting accounts on that that I just don't know what holds true anymore.
1) Yeah. I mostly prepare my own food so I weigh everything (by ingredient) on an electronic kitchen scale. Things like rice are weighed dry before they're cooked, not after. If I'm eating something from a packet or tin I'll input the data on the label.
2) I do, and yes, which is why I provided net cals rather than cals eaten.
3) Nope.How many calories are you eating, not netting?
I had to go and check my reports on this since I focus a lot on the net. Over the last 3 months most days the calories I actually ate were between 1,300 and 1,400 in a day.
I've only had 1,500 or more 2 days in the last 90 days.
Have you by chance considered getting off the deficit for a period of time and going into maintenance? It looks like you could reverse diet, go to maintenance and recomp for a while.1 -
You could use this time to recomp during the stall. Plus since you are sedentary, then perhaps you could up daily activity level a smidgen at the same time so you won't have to go even lower in calories? Find ways in your everyday life like taking stairs instead of elevator, park further away, stand and pace a bit during work breaks, etc. Those are easy things that are not too hard to implement.Have you by chance considered getting off the deficit for a period of time and going into maintenance? It looks like you could reverse diet, go to maintenance and recomp for a while.
Oh boy. Alright. This seems to be becoming a unanimous piece of advice (won't hurt me to try to find options to move more, too).
It's not something I've ever done but anything's worth a shot at this point. Then I'll just drop a few more questions about that:
1) how much should I up my cal intake by?
2) how long should I recover for before I re-deficit?
I'll continue doing everything else the same.
0 -
No never increase your deficit further. You are at the very bottom of the recommended intake to lose weight.
It appears that this very low calorie intake has possibly caused you to plateau, but before that can be determined:
1) How are you measuring your food intake here on MFP? Do you use a food scale to weigh and measure the 1000 to 1200 calories?
2) Do you track exercise? If so do you eat back any exercise calorie burns?
3) Are there any medical issues or medications that you take?
Yeah, at this point I wouldn't drop it any further and I do worry that the bird-worthy diet might've caused it, but the same people who suggested the drop also generally believe "starvation mode" or whatever to be a myth. I've heard so many conflicting accounts on that that I just don't know what holds true anymore.
1) Yeah. I mostly prepare my own food so I weigh everything (by ingredient) on an electronic kitchen scale. Things like rice are weighed dry before they're cooked, not after. If I'm eating something from a packet or tin I'll input the data on the label.
2) I do, and yes, which is why I provided net cals rather than cals eaten.
3) Nope.How many calories are you eating, not netting?
I had to go and check my reports on this since I focus a lot on the net. Over the last 3 months most days the calories I actually ate were between 1,300 and 1,400 in a day.
I've only had 1,500 or more 2 days in the last 90 days.
Have you by chance considered getting off the deficit for a period of time and going into maintenance? It looks like you could reverse diet, go to maintenance and recomp for a while.
This does work! ^
OP, I thought that I was doomed to eating only 1200-1500 calories also. But you can reverse diet and successfully increase calories without gaining weight. Do it slowly-- 50 calorie daily increments at a time. Research how to do this properly. If you jump up a couple hundred calories a day, for instance, you will likely gain weight. Inch up slowly.4 -
You could use this time to recomp during the stall. Plus since you are sedentary, then perhaps you could up daily activity level a smidgen at the same time so you won't have to go even lower in calories? Find ways in your everyday life like taking stairs instead of elevator, park further away, stand and pace a bit during work breaks, etc. Those are easy things that are not too hard to implement.Have you by chance considered getting off the deficit for a period of time and going into maintenance? It looks like you could reverse diet, go to maintenance and recomp for a while.
Oh boy. Alright. This seems to be becoming a unanimous piece of advice (won't hurt me to try to find options to move more, too).
It's not something I've ever done but anything's worth a shot at this point. Then I'll just drop a few more questions about that:
1) how much should I up my cal intake by?
2) how long should I recover for before I re-deficit?
I'll continue doing everything else the same.
1) You can change MFP from lose to maintain. Get this number and either up right away to this amount or do it slowly. But your metabolism has slowed so take 10% off this amount. Might not be a huge number but it might matter a little bit. Doing it all at once may be a bit too much for some. I personally do it slower my self.
2) My recommendation is the the idea of a full diet break typically a min of 10-14 days but can be as long as you want.1 -
It took me a while to recover. I love it though because:
I did not gain weight.
I lost body size and muscles got firm.
I am not tired.
I feel so much stronger and better now.
I plateaued for some time and experienced "diet fatigue". Sometimes a little break from dieting makes a huge difference emotionally and physically. Don't go back to old eating habits and keep track of your calories and adjust them down if you start gaining again.
1 -
Got it. I'll implement your advice but I'll probably endeavor to go the slow approach as both of you suggested, because I'm positive that yes, my metabolism has slowed somewhat.
Going to go read around on the subject for a better idea of what to do. Thank you so much for your time.2 -
You could use this time to recomp during the stall. Plus since you are sedentary, then perhaps you could up daily activity level a smidgen at the same time so you won't have to go even lower in calories? Find ways in your everyday life like taking stairs instead of elevator, park further away, stand and pace a bit during work breaks, etc. Those are easy things that are not too hard to implement.Have you by chance considered getting off the deficit for a period of time and going into maintenance? It looks like you could reverse diet, go to maintenance and recomp for a while.
Oh boy. Alright. This seems to be becoming a unanimous piece of advice (won't hurt me to try to find options to move more, too).
It's not something I've ever done but anything's worth a shot at this point. Then I'll just drop a few more questions about that:
1) how much should I up my cal intake by?
2) how long should I recover for before I re-deficit?
I'll continue doing everything else the same.
In general i recommend upping the intake by 10% each week until reaching your maintenance. This usually takes 6-10 weeks depending on how low your calories were and how much you actually maintain on.
I like to maintain for 4 weeks and then begin another slow deficit working my way down (again, 10% each week) until reaching my desired deficit.
I personally do not cut for longer than 12 weeks (going down into the deficit as well as going back up into my maintenance).0 -
(Metabolic adaptation)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-ultimate-guide-to-reverse-dieting.html1 -
I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
Sorry, but OP honestly should not be at maintenance at 1200 calories and is probably miserable. People told me what you are saying, and I even tried dropping down to 1100 calories (before MFP) but it was too low to be happy on. Now I am very happy and upped my calorie maintenance level close to 1800-2000. I can eat normally again! Recomp and reverse dieting works for me.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
Sorry, but OP honestly should not be at maintenance at 1200 calories and is probably miserable. People told me what you are saying, and I even tried dropping down to 1100 calories (before MFP) but it was too low to be happy on. Now I am very happy and upped my calorie maintenance level close to 1800-2000. I can eat normally again! Recomp works.
Sorry, but OP is not eating 1200 calories. She's eating more than that.
I've been at this game a lot longer than my post count would indicate, and am well aware of how all this works.
OP's stats are also close to mine, though I weigh less than her and am much older. My weight somewhat stalled out for a while. You know why? I was overestimating my calorie burns.
I know recomp works, but if a person wants to be smaller and weigh less, they can.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
The idea is that this maintenance you mention is not normal maintenance. The idea is break homeostasis and reset her metabolism back from this new norm she has been at for a while while consuming very low calories.
OP clearly demonstrated her calculated intake through carefully weighing and measuring and eating back some exercise cals.
Going lower than 1000 - 1200 is very bad advice.
3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
I do weight train quite a bit and freely admit that getting a solid number on the calories burned from that is... tricky. I usually don't bother to track weights anymore, only cardio (whether steady-state or interval), since the numbers from that are a bit more solid.
Probably still going to give recomp a shot for a little while since 2-3 weeks isn't all that long and I won't go crazy with it.
@DebSozo It's pretty low and restrictive but I've adapted (for better and worse, as we can see). I'm going to build myself back to 1600 for a bit. I don't think I have the appetite to manage 1800 - 2000 cal, lmao.
EDIT: Also, I don't think I'm overestimating my burns since I'm not tracking weights. I actually do think my issue is a combination of a garbage metabolism and a lot of inactivity, based on what's being discussed here. Going to the gym almost daily doesn't really negate the fact that I spend every bit of my life outside of it sitting at a computer.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
I do weight train quite a bit and freely admit that getting a solid number on the calories burned from that is... tricky. I usually don't bother to track weights anymore, only cardio (whether steady-state or interval), since the numbers from that are a bit more solid.
Probably still going to give recomp a shot for a little while since 2-3 weeks isn't all that long and I won't go crazy with it.
@DebSozo It's pretty low and restrictive but I've adapted (for better and worse, as we can see). I'm going to build myself back to 1600 for a bit. I don't think I have the appetite to manage 1800 - 2000 cal, lmao.
Well, the flaw with your reasoning here is that recomp is a long game. 2-3 weeks isn't really enough time to see any results from it.
You'll just be doing the same thing you've been doing, basically.
I've been in your shoes.
My advice to you is to take a diet break, and then reassess your goals. Do you want to weigh less and be really lean? If the answer is yes, the break might give you the push you need to come back with enough commitment to see through sticking to a slightly lower intake. If not, you can always come back from the break and do recomp and stay your current weight.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
The idea is that this maintenance you mention is not normal maintenance. The idea is break homeostasis and reset her metabolism back from this new norm she has been at for a while while consuming very low calories.
OP clearly demonstrated her calculated intake through carefully weighing and measuring and eating back some exercise cals.
Going lower than 1000 - 1200 is very bad advice.
She's not eating lower than 1000-1200. Since calculations of exercise calories are merely estimates, I'm ignoring her net calories and going by gross intake. She's eating 1300-1400. I'm advising her to eat 1200-1300.
The breaking homeostasis and metabolism resetting and everything? I know that sounds like it's a very appealing idea, but it just doesn't happen. Bodies don't work that way. That's dieting woo.7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
I do weight train quite a bit and freely admit that getting a solid number on the calories burned from that is... tricky. I usually don't bother to track weights anymore, only cardio (whether steady-state or interval), since the numbers from that are a bit more solid.
Probably still going to give recomp a shot for a little while since 2-3 weeks isn't all that long and I won't go crazy with it.
@DebSozo It's pretty low and restrictive but I've adapted (for better and worse, as we can see). I'm going to build myself back to 1600 for a bit. I don't think I have the appetite to manage 1800 - 2000 cal, lmao.
EDIT: Also, I don't think I'm overestimating my burns since I'm not tracking weights. I actually do think my issue is a combination of a garbage metabolism and a lot of inactivity, based on what's being discussed here. Going to the gym almost daily doesn't really negate the fact that I spend every bit of my life outside of it sitting at a computer.
It took me a while. I started out doing 1200-1300 then inched up. Honestly I would gain at 1500-1600 at the beginning. So go very slowly.0 -
Staying my current weight won't be the worst thing in the world, but yes, the ideal endgame is to be pretty darn lean. I still have stubborn deposits of flab on my stomach and hips and it'd be nice for all of that to be almost flat.
I recognize that's the threshold that separates "moderate effort and sensible dieting" from "rigorous training and adherence to diet", I don't love exercise enough to truly be a 'fit girl' but I'd like to look more like that. I don't have trouble with discipline but with clarity of info/direction.
Heck, there are conflicting counts of advice within this very thread (though it's to be expected).0 -
She's eating 1300-1400. I'm advising her to eat 1200-1300.
That's correct and that just made me think of something.
Should I maybe just stop accounting for exercise losses and eat to a hard-defined, non-net calorie limit for a while and see how that works? That sounds like what you're suggesting.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm going to disagree with the advice you've been given here. If you've been stuck at your weight, you've been eating at maintenance.
I think the niggle with you is your calculation of net calories.
Calculating calorie burns, especially for lifting, is really a tough thing to estimate.
While I wouldn't recommend necessarily dropping your calories for calculation purposes, I'd recommend dropping your intake slightly, especially since you're not getting much cardio (which tends to give you more calories to eat back). Drop your intake just 100 calories a day and see if that gets you moving again.
I do weight train quite a bit and freely admit that getting a solid number on the calories burned from that is... tricky. I usually don't bother to track weights anymore, only cardio (whether steady-state or interval), since the numbers from that are a bit more solid.
Probably still going to give recomp a shot for a little while since 2-3 weeks isn't all that long and I won't go crazy with it.
@DebSozo It's pretty low and restrictive but I've adapted (for better and worse, as we can see). I'm going to build myself back to 1600 for a bit. I don't think I have the appetite to manage 1800 - 2000 cal, lmao.
EDIT: Also, I don't think I'm overestimating my burns since I'm not tracking weights. I actually do think my issue is a combination of a garbage metabolism and a lot of inactivity, based on what's being discussed here. Going to the gym almost daily doesn't really negate the fact that I spend every bit of my life outside of it sitting at a computer.
I too do the same thing. I am completely sedentary outside of a computer programming job that I actually work from home to do. I lift and cardio as my exercise. I have been doing bulk and cut cycles for a year, but I recomped for 8 months and got frustrated, but my goals were no longer losing weight.
This recomp does not promote huge results in gainz for muscle building. But the recomp or the process (eating maintenance while continuing to lift) is order to get back to the deficit to continue losing weight is the right thing to do if this is your goal (which is what I understand that to be)
Should you consider recomp longer, that's up to you. In 3 - 4 weeks see where you are with how you feel in losing more weight, or doing the recomp for a longer period of time or even consider bulk/cut cycles.
Do not let others sway you in one direction or another. Certainly look up the recomp forums here in MFP..1 -
For me, the best way to get things moving is to MOVE MORE. ALL DAY...when you're not typing at the computer, get up and walk around. Be less efficient with everything, take three steps where you could take one...carry two loads instead of one....etc. You could challenge yourself every day....for example: today, I'm going to try to get up from this desk every hour, and walk to the third floor, then down to the basement, then back up again. There's no point lowering your calories, so more activity will help you to achieve your deficit required to get the weight loss moving again.2
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She's eating 1300-1400. I'm advising her to eat 1200-1300.
That's correct and that just made me think of something.
Should I maybe just stop accounting for exercise losses and eat to a hard-defined, non-net calorie limit for a while and see how that works? That sounds like what you're suggesting.
This is what i ALWAYS do.
But considering you've been at this for months now, it might be a good idea to work your way up (really see how far you can push maintenance) before working your way down again.0 -
So you're advocating that a 5ft 3" individual should be netting below 1000 Cal a day to demonstrate commitment and see things through? Because she is currently doing what? Not demonstrating courage and commitment by trying to fix her metabolically adapted body?GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »My advice to you is to take a diet break, and then reassess your goals. Do you want to weigh less and be really lean? If the answer is yes, the break might give you the push you need to come back with enough commitment to see through sticking to a slightly lower intake. If not, you can always come back from the break and do recomp and stay your current weight.
2 -
She's eating 1300-1400. I'm advising her to eat 1200-1300.
That's correct and that just made me think of something.
Should I maybe just stop accounting for exercise losses and eat to a hard-defined, non-net calorie limit for a while and see how that works? That sounds like what you're suggesting.
This is a good point. But you are expending energy to exercise but this is part of TDEE.
NEAT and EAT are part of your TDEE maintenance.
NEAT - non exercise activity thermogenesis
EAT - exercise thermogenesis0 -
JustMissTracy wrote: »For me, the best way to get things moving is to MOVE MORE. ALL DAY...when you're not typing at the computer, get up and walk around. Be less efficient with everything, take three steps where you could take one...carry two loads instead of one....etc. You could challenge yourself every day....for example: today, I'm going to try to get up from this desk every hour, and walk to the third floor, then down to the basement, then back up again. There's no point lowering your calories, so more activity will help you to achieve your deficit required to get the weight loss moving again.
This is excellent advice. NEAT is neat.1
This discussion has been closed.
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