A question for diabetics.
Christine_72
Posts: 16,049 Member
I'm asking this on behalf of my mum and i'm also curious too..
Her brother, my uncle, is a type 2 diabetic, but he lives in Germany so she only gets to talk to him on the phone and also hear only his side of the story..
By his own admission, he eats a terrible diet loaded with sugary foods, lollies, sweets and excessive carbs. However, he says he can eat all of these things because they have come out with an insulin injection which allows a diabetic to eat whatever they want as long they inject themselves (more than usual), after they eat 'unsuitable' foods, without any repercussions. Is this true, has anyone heard of this? My mum thinks he's fibbing...
Especially since he is now in hospital after having half his leg amputated. His doctor told my mum it was because of his poor lifestyle choices.
So my main question, is there such an insulin available?
Her brother, my uncle, is a type 2 diabetic, but he lives in Germany so she only gets to talk to him on the phone and also hear only his side of the story..
By his own admission, he eats a terrible diet loaded with sugary foods, lollies, sweets and excessive carbs. However, he says he can eat all of these things because they have come out with an insulin injection which allows a diabetic to eat whatever they want as long they inject themselves (more than usual), after they eat 'unsuitable' foods, without any repercussions. Is this true, has anyone heard of this? My mum thinks he's fibbing...
Especially since he is now in hospital after having half his leg amputated. His doctor told my mum it was because of his poor lifestyle choices.
So my main question, is there such an insulin available?
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Replies
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It's called non-compliant. Liar, liar pants on fire. Next the whole leg.8
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An insulin pump sort of works on this premise...and many feel the freedom to eat poorly because of it. But some (maybe all?) pumps have you input your carbs eaten to adjust the dosage. But it's not a license to eat like a fat kid unleashed on a cake...as evidenced by his recent amputation.2
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I know there's a diabetic member here, @midwesterner85 , who had 10-20k binge sessions iirc. Hopefully he'll see this thread and provide some insight.1
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Yes, as long as he is using proper bolus doses and knows how to do the math, then a bolus type insulin can be used to cover carbs. This is what type 1's do all the time for everything they eat - whether you think the food is "healthy" or not; and regardless of weight.
On the other hand, if he is really a type 2 and overweight, it is almost certain he can improve his condition by losing weight. So while he is right as far as taking insulin to cover carbs (assuming he has the supplies and knows what he is doing), he might be better long-term by losing weight.6 -
He's probably using medication to cover the fact that he's eating very poorly. In the short term he may lessen his blood glucose spikes, but in the long term his insulin resistance will get worse. I could take insulin to cover a bag of candy too. Long term, that's going to cause more problems.
Plus, I would be a lot of money that he is still getting spikes in BG that are way beyond acceptable. I would bet he would be getting BG readings in the double digits quite often (or 180's+).Doctors are finding that BG spikes above 6 are associated with "diabetic" complications. If he is letting his BG go higher, he is asking for trouble. Unfortunately.0 -
There are a wide variety of meds for diabetes, but nothing magical. It is true insulin can be adjusted to accommodate for what you eat to get your blood sugar to goal, but it will lead to weight gain unless you change your lifestyle ((healthy diet and exercise).0
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It's not a new kind of insulin. Insulin always works this way. When an insulin dependent diabetic takes a certain amount of carbs, a proportional amount of insulin is required to compensate.
Imagine a child on a swing going higher and higher. The wider the swing the deeper the compensation. And the more danger of overcompensating.
If a diabetic goes TOO LOW on his sugar, he may need to compensate with carbs until the blood sugar comes up.
The leg amputation is from poor blood sugar control, damaged nerves and damaged fine blood vessels. In that sort of condition life threatening infections can set in. The uncle is in danger of blindness too.
If he were to limit his sweets and other carbs he must carefully monitor his insulin usage so he gets used to taking less insulin. It's a tightrope walk for sure.5 -
Thank you so much for your insightful post @jgnatca1
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Umm... How is he not counting amputation as a repercussion? Seems like some serious denial going on.1
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tlflag1620 wrote: »Umm... How is he not counting amputation as a repercussion? Seems like some serious denial going on.
Most definitely! Knowing him, he'll be blaming everything else other than himself... Hopefully this is a wake up call for him.
He went into the hospital expecting to have his little toe removed, and came out of the theatre with half of his leg gone.0 -
My brother and sister have type 1 diabetes and that was pretty much how it's worked for them. They eat what they want and then take the right amount of insulin to match up with the amount of carbs they eat. Of course I think the less insulin they have to take the better and eating too many sweets is unhealthy for everyone, but they can't go their whole lives without dessert because what kind of life would that be.1
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I'm having a hard time understanding how he is having such extreme complications if he is keeping tight control of his glucose readings. Something doesn't add up.0
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Skyblueyellow wrote: »I'm having a hard time understanding how he is having such extreme complications if he is keeping tight control of his glucose readings. Something doesn't add up.
I doubt he's keeping tight control of anything, I really have no idea. At least once every couple of weeks he calls my mum telling her he's going to down a bottle of pills and kill himself.. He's one of those woe is me types.
Everything i hear is 3rd hand news down the line from my mum... I posted this to try and get a better understanding of diabetes.1 -
I'm Type II but not on insulin so I am not able to adjust a dose of anything to compensate for carb binges. I do know of several diabetics in my life who are on insulin pumps and just eat whatever the heck they want.
I do take medication, but thankfully that is all that I need at this point in my life. I'm hoping to actually get off of medication completely and be diet-controlled. It's a goal at least.
Your uncle is technically correct (as others have pointed out) but I'm afraid that it sounds as if his mental health is not great. Threatening suicide along with binge eating (with or without weight gain) is extremely concerning to me. I'm hoping that he has some sort of support system where he is to help him adjust to life after amputation. I'm afraid that if he is already suffering from depression that the loss of half of a limb will just compound that.
Best wishes to your family. This has to be difficult for your mother.2 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I doubt he's keeping tight control of anything, I really have no idea.
Losing a limb because of diabetes means he is not keeping tight control. Spending time above 140 mg/dl damages organs. My doctor describes it as rotting from the inside out. Probably not entirely accurate, but a useful analogy.
jgnatca's analogy is a good one. Another analogy is driving a car. When you keep your car going at a slow speed (fewer carbs), it's pretty easy to slow down (by adding more insulin) if you find you're going faster than you thought (ate more carbs) to make sure you stop at the stop sign, or to avoid something unexpected that pops up in the road in front of you (physical or emotional stress, for example - both of which have pretty dramatic consequences on my blood glucose). Take that same car traveling at 100 mph (lots of carbs). You've got to be able to apply the brakes (insulin) much more quickly and precisely to avoid blowing through the stop sign - and if something unexpected pops up - you're likely to hit it.
So what you are seeing in the amputation is the consequence of the multiple times your uncle couldn't stop in time and blew through the stop sign or ran into the deer that jumped in front of him.6 -
He's probably using medication to cover the fact that he's eating very poorly. In the short term he may lessen his blood glucose spikes, but in the long term his insulin resistance will get worse. I could take insulin to cover a bag of candy too. Long term, that's going to cause more problems.
Plus, I would be a lot of money that he is still getting spikes in BG that are way beyond acceptable. I would bet he would be getting BG readings in the double digits quite often (or 180's+).Doctors are finding that BG spikes above 6 are associated with "diabetic" complications. If he is letting his BG go higher, he is asking for trouble. Unfortunately.
Perfectly healthy people have spikes in the 180's+ when eating carbs. The differences are more about timing with insulin injections because 1) The pathway for insulin is slower, and 2) Artificial insulins still don't work as fast as our own insulin when properly working.
A few years back, there was a study published about the timing issue of injected insulin wit type 1's. Participants ate oatmeal. The control group's BG went up to 180's at 1 hr. and the diabetic group went up to lower 200's at same time. The group making insulin had started reducing BG earlier because insulin didn't have to travel through subcutaneous tissue first.2 -
Also, while it sounds like he isn't keeping good control please keep in mind that some diabetics can do everything right and not necessarily keep what many deem "good control". So many factors other than food can also cause higher blood sugar. I have also known as few diabetics that are very healthy and active and still have issues with complications. Everybody is different.3
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this is true. I am a nurse at a high school and several diabetic students...they eat what they want, try to stay away from sugar...yeah right....calculate carbs and adjust per meal. all of the diabetics at my school are on this now. since they don't adhere well to the rules....sugar....the blood sugar levels are all over the place...that being said adults seem to do very well with this.midwesterner85 wrote: »Yes, as long as he is using proper bolus doses and knows how to do the math, then a bolus type insulin can be used to cover carbs. This is what type 1's do all the time for everything they eat - whether you think the food is "healthy" or not; and regardless of weight.
On the other hand, if he is really a type 2 and overweight, it is almost certain he can improve his condition by losing weight. So while he is right as far as taking insulin to cover carbs (assuming he has the supplies and knows what he is doing), he might be better long-term by losing weight.
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gieshagirl wrote: »
this is true. I am a nurse at a high school and several diabetic students...they eat what they want, try to stay away from sugar...yeah right....calculate carbs and adjust per meal. all of the diabetics at my school are on this now. since they don't adhere well to the rules....sugar....the blood sugar levels are all over the place...that being said adults seem to do very well with this.midwesterner85 wrote: »Yes, as long as he is using proper bolus doses and knows how to do the math, then a bolus type insulin can be used to cover carbs. This is what type 1's do all the time for everything they eat - whether you think the food is "healthy" or not; and regardless of weight.
On the other hand, if he is really a type 2 and overweight, it is almost certain he can improve his condition by losing weight. So while he is right as far as taking insulin to cover carbs (assuming he has the supplies and knows what he is doing), he might be better long-term by losing weight.
Are these type 1's or type 2's? Why are they trying to stay away from carbs (sugar)?
Teenagers will have more BG fluctuations (and challenges) than others under similar circumstances. BG is affected by dozens of factors, including hormones.0 -
Ooooh... how sad for your uncle and your mum. Tough situation when someone you care about suffers bad consequences from bad decisions. Everyone suffers in away. Best to your family.1
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midwesterner85 wrote: »gieshagirl wrote: »
this is true. I am a nurse at a high school and several diabetic students...they eat what they want, try to stay away from sugar...yeah right....calculate carbs and adjust per meal. all of the diabetics at my school are on this now. since they don't adhere well to the rules....sugar....the blood sugar levels are all over the place...that being said adults seem to do very well with this.midwesterner85 wrote: »Yes, as long as he is using proper bolus doses and knows how to do the math, then a bolus type insulin can be used to cover carbs. This is what type 1's do all the time for everything they eat - whether you think the food is "healthy" or not; and regardless of weight.
On the other hand, if he is really a type 2 and overweight, it is almost certain he can improve his condition by losing weight. So while he is right as far as taking insulin to cover carbs (assuming he has the supplies and knows what he is doing), he might be better long-term by losing weight.
Are these type 1's or type 2's? Why are they trying to stay away from carbs (sugar)?
Teenagers will have more BG fluctuations (and challenges) than others under similar circumstances. BG is affected by dozens of factors, including hormones.
I think the op is talking about type 1's. Minimizing carbohydrates definitely makes staying in the target zone easier. As you said there are many other factors that will affect BG, why not make it a little easier by moderating carbohydrate intake.0 -
he is lying0
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BlackTimber wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »gieshagirl wrote: »
this is true. I am a nurse at a high school and several diabetic students...they eat what they want, try to stay away from sugar...yeah right....calculate carbs and adjust per meal. all of the diabetics at my school are on this now. since they don't adhere well to the rules....sugar....the blood sugar levels are all over the place...that being said adults seem to do very well with this.midwesterner85 wrote: »Yes, as long as he is using proper bolus doses and knows how to do the math, then a bolus type insulin can be used to cover carbs. This is what type 1's do all the time for everything they eat - whether you think the food is "healthy" or not; and regardless of weight.
On the other hand, if he is really a type 2 and overweight, it is almost certain he can improve his condition by losing weight. So while he is right as far as taking insulin to cover carbs (assuming he has the supplies and knows what he is doing), he might be better long-term by losing weight.
Are these type 1's or type 2's? Why are they trying to stay away from carbs (sugar)?
Teenagers will have more BG fluctuations (and challenges) than others under similar circumstances. BG is affected by dozens of factors, including hormones.
I think the op is talking about type 1's. Minimizing carbohydrates definitely makes staying in the target zone easier. As you said there are many other factors that will affect BG, why not make it a little easier by moderating carbohydrate intake.
It isn't necessary to avoid carbs or sugar, but yes, it makes it easier because of the timing issue mentioned earlier. That is something else that is true for non-diabetics as well... much better BG's with low carb.
The way @gieshagirl specifically called out "sugar" leads to the understanding that the diabetics she is talking about are somehow unable to take insulin to cover "sugar" and that they should abstain from "sugar." In fact, sugar is like any other source of net carbs in this regard. And diabetics can eat "sugar" and any other carbs - bread, rice, potatoes, etc. by taking insulin. For type 1's, taking insulin is just manually completing the exact same function that a non-diabetic's pancreas performs without thought. So if the argument is that a type 1 shouldn't eat "sugar" or carbs, then the same argument applies to all homo sapiens.0 -
You only get one pancreas, the danger for diabetics is high blood sugar... external sources of insulin is only a stop gap, it isn't meant to replace your own insulin production... uncontrolled diabetes can and does lead to weight loss...prior to my diagnosis I was eating like a horse and losing a couple pounds a week... I thought that was kind of cool, but I knew something was up... My doc requisitioned blood work on a Thursday... Friday morning I went to the lab for the tests... Saturday morning my Doc called me and told me to check in at the nearest ER in order to get some help ASAP... anyway... the deal is this... bacteria live on sugar... sweet blood gives plenty of food for bacteria to thrive... meds are NOT meant to provide an opportunity to indulge in carbs and sugar... they are meant to slow the progress of a progressive condition... but like anything... people are going to choose the way they live their lives regardless of any logic... often it isn't until it is too late before some decide to take their health seriously.0
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That is technically how insulin works. Insulin lowers blood sugar by decreasing the sugar that's in the bloodstream and having it be absorbed by the muscles or the glucose can be stored as fat (this is why insulin typically causes weight gain). If he accounts for carbs and uses insulin, accordingly to what he is going to eat then that's really a short term management of his disease state. If he wants to get better, he needs to watch his diet and lose weight so that he can take less insulin and maybe potentially get off insulin. I met some people who decided they wanted to turn their life around. These people were obese diabetics and they were able to get off their diabetic meds completely. Medications should be used to help people get to their goal when they are having trouble doing it themselves.
My parents are both diabetics and my job here is to help them get better.
On another note, you mentioned your uncle had his leg amputated. This might be due to the way he takes his insulin because insulin should be controlling his sugars so that infections, nerve problems, blindness shouldn't happen. But this largely depends on when he takes his insulin. If he takes his insulin at the same time of his meals or after he eats then what he's doing is being reactive to his blood sugar levels. Insulin takes time to work, depending on what type of insulin he is using. Insulin should usually be taken before meals (like 15 or 30 min before a meal for instance). If he's taking it during or after a meal, his sugar levels are already going to be high and it will come down when once the insulin starts working. If this is what is happening then the sugars still have the opportunity to damage the nerves, eyes, kidneys, etc.
Some people who have an unhealthy lifestyle are also not being compliant with their medications or are not using them appropriately, which could be what's happening to your uncle. There are people who are on a bulk load of insulin to control their sugars and they say they're doing fine. But insulin is not an easy medication to take because you have to factor in when to take the medication and when to eat each time even during snacks depending on the person. Along with that, you have to calculate how much insulin you have to take. Also, if a person's diet get worse and worse and they need to take more and more insulin, that will cost more money. You have to invest a lot of time on this medication, if you're going to use it correctly.
I am happy my parents are choosing to fight diabetes and get better. I would say this, try to inspire him to get better. It will be very hard because type 2 diabetics (if he is type 2) have been indulging in a terrible lifestyle for quite a while, so it's going to be hard to break. It will be even harder if they have certain societal factors going against his body's demands. The road he is taking now is hard, but it may get worse. His life will be dictated around his diabetes, his blood sugars, and his insulin injections---is this what he wants? He already lost half his leg and it can get worse. He needs make this choice for himself and regardless of his decision he would need support.1 -
Are these type 1's or type 2's? Why are they trying to stay away from carbs (sugar)?
Teenagers will have more BG fluctuations (and challenges) than others under similar circumstances. BG is affected by dozens of factors, including hormones.[/quote]
these are type 1 diabetics. some with new diagnosis and others that have had to deal with this since they were very small. with teens, the trend with doctors is that if you say something is off limits....that is what they will sneak and do. the diabetic clinics seem to have more compliance with adjustment after eating than prohibiting certain foods. the carbs are broken down by the body into sugar....sugar impacts your system fast...(2 smarties can bring it up by 50-60 points in 10 min.) where as carbs can be slowed down by eating protein with it (but it still turns to sugar and your body perceives it like sugar and uses and stores it like sugar) and thus it makes for more blood sugar stability rather than huge swings that can harm you. type 2 diabetics have less freedom if they are diet controlled because they have to rely on their body to correct blood sugar (sometimes with oral meds for help) but they are more likely to have huge swings in sugar r/t their pancreas are trying to work where as type one their pancreas are not working at all
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gieshagirl wrote: »
these are type 1 diabetics. some with new diagnosis and others that have had to deal with this since they were very small. with teens, the trend with doctors is that if you say something is off limits....that is what they will sneak and do. the diabetic clinics seem to have more compliance with adjustment after eating than prohibiting certain foods. the carbs are broken down by the body into sugar....sugar impacts your system fast...(2 smarties can bring it up by 50-60 points in 10 min.) where as carbs can be slowed down by eating protein with it (but it still turns to sugar and your body perceives it like sugar and uses and stores it like sugar) and thus it makes for more blood sugar stability rather than huge swings that can harm you. type 2 diabetics have less freedom if they are diet controlled because they have to rely on their body to correct blood sugar (sometimes with oral meds for help) but they are more likely to have huge swings in sugar r/t their pancreas are trying to work where as type one their pancreas are not working at allAre these type 1's or type 2's? Why are they trying to stay away from carbs (sugar)?
Teenagers will have more BG fluctuations (and challenges) than others under similar circumstances. BG is affected by dozens of factors, including hormones.
Right, so why are they supposed to stay away from sugar? They take insulin based on carbs, so why not include those sugar carbs in their dosage calculation?0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I'm asking this on behalf of my mum and i'm also curious too..
Her brother, my uncle, is a type 2 diabetic, but he lives in Germany so she only gets to talk to him on the phone and also hear only his side of the story..
By his own admission, he eats a terrible diet loaded with sugary foods, lollies, sweets and excessive carbs. However, he says he can eat all of these things because they have come out with an insulin injection which allows a diabetic to eat whatever they want as long they inject themselves (more than usual), after they eat 'unsuitable' foods, without any repercussions. Is this true, has anyone heard of this? My mum thinks he's fibbing...
Especially since he is now in hospital after having half his leg amputated. His doctor told my mum it was because of his poor lifestyle choices.
So my main question, is there such an insulin available?
Clearly your uncle's plan is not working for him. You could check the website of the American Diabetes Association or its counterpart in your country. That would be a great source of reliable info.
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Christine_72 wrote: »I'm asking this on behalf of my mum and i'm also curious too..
Her brother, my uncle, is a type 2 diabetic, but he lives in Germany so she only gets to talk to him on the phone and also hear only his side of the story..
By his own admission, he eats a terrible diet loaded with sugary foods, lollies, sweets and excessive carbs. However, he says he can eat all of these things because they have come out with an insulin injection which allows a diabetic to eat whatever they want as long they inject themselves (more than usual), after they eat 'unsuitable' foods, without any repercussions. Is this true, has anyone heard of this? My mum thinks he's fibbing...
Especially since he is now in hospital after having half his leg amputated. His doctor told my mum it was because of his poor lifestyle choices.
So my main question, is there such an insulin available?
Clearly your uncle's plan is not working for him. You could check the website of the American Diabetes Association or its counterpart in your country. That would be a great source of reliable info.
Forget the ADA. Try Diet Doctor on Facebook. He recommends a no-grain, no-sugar (or as close as you can get), high fat diet for pre-Type 2 and Type diabetics. The idea is because diabetes is a disease of high blood sugar, why would you want to eat food that spikes blood sugar? Grains and sugar spike blood sugar and fats do not.
Makes sense to me.2
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