Bulking not necessary for significant muscle gains - research out there
serapel
Posts: 502 Member
I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
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Replies
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How would you gain muscle if you aren't in a surplus? Do you have the data to back up your claims? I'm curious to see how you came up with your conclusion.0
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I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
Only bodybuilders?
That's not exactly a representative sample!
Plenty of people build muscle without running bulk/cut cycles but perhaps define what you mean by "significant muscle gains"?
What's your goal physique or is this a generic debate?0 -
It depends on what you're after...if you're training you will put on muscle...if you're eating at maintenance more or less, this process will just be slow which doesn't really matter IMO...most people do just fine eating well and training and over time will develop a fitness body...but to actually bulk on substantial muscle like a bodybuilder would, you need to be in a surplus0
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I think you took a wrong turn somewhere in your research. Where have you been reading this?
I usually eat higher protein during my cuts. Sure don't add any noticeable amounts of muscle when I am cutting.0 -
I definitely believe you can gain muscle without being in a surplus, but you'll need to carefully monitor your calorie intake (and keep protein high) and stay at maintenance based on your exercise. There's a catch though, it'll go slower. I've gained significant strength and muscle mass in the last 4-5 months in maintenance. But, it's probably 25% of what I could have gained in surplus. I'm simply not willing to bulk up and have to go back on a cut again. I never wanted to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger anyway. I figure at the rate I'm going, I'll hit my fitness goals in about a year, or by the end of next summer. I'll probably keep up my routine throughout 2017's holiday season and bump it up every holiday season (Nov/Dec) just for good measure but in 2018 I expect to be at 4 to 5 days a week max.1
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Cutting makes me lose muscle so I am better off not bulking at all?
And building muscle does not take a surplus? Well it depends on what goals are..
I'll bite.. post some links for us to look at?1 -
I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
I definitely did not find this to be true at all.
While it is not for everyone and I think you can make gains eating at maintenance and recomping in time, bulking was the best thing I ever did for my body, and I am doing it again because it works so well for me. It is necessary to reach my goals.3 -
How would you gain muscle if you aren't in a surplus? Do you have the data to back up your claims? I'm curious to see how you came up with your conclusion.
While there are a lot of variables, it is possible to gain muscle in a deficit, and even more so at maintenance levels. Of course this would depending on having adequate training stimuli and how new you are, adequate nutrition/protein, and genetics. It's just not ideal, and not at the same rate as a person running a bulk.1 -
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I honestly have no opinion and this is not just for "body builders"; sorry to exclude anyone who is interested in this topic
I personally find it very difficult to bulk bc I'm so busy and have two kids in school while working a full-time career. I struggle just to get in my 2200 cals a day and throw in a couple of protein shakes.
After reading the research out there, I was curious to see theory vs. real experiences.
I'm an inquisitive person I guess.0 -
I had a body assessment done over the weekend and I'm between 9 and 10 percent body fat. It would be extremely difficult for me to add muscle without eating in a surplus/gaining weight.0
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Starting out a 126lbs after high school, I trained hard and ate high protein. The 1st few of months, I gained maybe 2lbs and was stronger but didn't see any significant muscle size anywhere. Then after discussing with a bodybuilder about gaining size, I upped my calories significantly and in the next 6 months packed on about 30lbs. Yes I was fatter too, but you could DEFINITELY see that I put on significant muscle.
So while it's possible to add muscle at maintenance (if you still have body fat to lose), it's not as SIGNIFICANT as if you do a good surplus.
Yes you lose some muscle when you cut, but no one can't tell if someone was 126lbs lean, and now is 145lbs lean after a cut, that you won't see SIGNIFICANT muscle gain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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If you want to gain significant muscle, a suitable surplus is required. Eating at maintenance may be ok for a slight recomp effect but it is both slow and does not yield noticeable results.2
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I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
What is of primary importance is your training - without muscle stimulus you don't get growth, that's where it starts.
Diet (calories and protein both very important of course) simply support the normal process of recovery/repair/growth.
As Eric Helms puts it - diet is permissive.
If you don't have the time to eat enough then I guess you don't have time to train effectively either - bulking would just be a way to get fat in that case
The "leaning out phase" really shouldn't result in very significant muscle loss if you do it properly.
Losing weight leads to a very likely loss of lean mass but muscle is only one component of lean mass (everything but fat effectively).
If you want real experiences then read the recomp thread....
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1
As kwtilbury shows people are at very different stages compared to their potential so what is applicable for some would be the wrong choice for others. Some people also simply respond differently to deficit/surplus/maintenance (as the Bret Contreras article touches on).
I'm too old with too many training years to add muscle quickly so can't effectively use a calorie surplus so my choice is recomp.
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Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.2 -
Starting out a 126lbs after high school, I trained hard and ate high protein. The 1st few of months, I gained maybe 2lbs and was stronger but didn't see any significant muscle size anywhere. Then after discussing with a bodybuilder about gaining size, I upped my calories significantly and in the next 6 months packed on about 30lbs. Yes I was fatter too, but you could DEFINITELY see that I put on significant muscle.
So while it's possible to add muscle at maintenance (if you still have body fat to lose), it's not as SIGNIFICANT as if you do a good surplus.
Yes you lose some muscle when you cut, but no one can't tell if someone was 126lbs lean, and now is 145lbs lean after a cut, that you won't see SIGNIFICANT muscle gain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Very good point!!0 -
@trigden1991trigden1991 wrote: »If you want to gain significant muscle, a suitable surplus is required. Eating at maintenance may be ok for a slight recomp effect but it is both slow and does not yield noticeable results.
Sweeping generalisations really aren't very helpful.
Recomp has worked very well for me at very different stages of my life. I've had "noticeable results" even in my 50's when for most of the year cycling is my priority - and some people have great results. @Hornsby for example.
You are incredibly negative about recomp - because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
You have achieved great results and more than likely recomp wouldn't get you anywhere now but you are hardly representative of everyone. This isn't BB.com and has a very wide spectrum of people from highly trained to never trained.
If I cut/bulked I would be miserable, it would impact my sport and I would most likely not make any faster progress than if I just recomped. That certainly doesn't mean everyone should recomp just as not everyone who wants to add some muscle needs to bulk.
Would ask you to be a bit more even handed!
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I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
What is of primary importance is your training - without muscle stimulus you don't get growth, that's where it starts.
Diet (calories and protein both very important of course) simply support the normal process of recovery/repair/growth.
As Eric Helms puts it - diet is permissive.
If you don't have the time to eat enough then I guess you don't have time to train effectively either - bulking would just be a way to get fat in that case
The "leaning out phase" really shouldn't result in very significant muscle loss if you do it properly.
Losing weight leads to a very likely loss of lean mass but muscle is only one component of lean mass (everything but fat effectively).
If you want real experiences then read the recomp thread....
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1
As kwtilbury shows people are at very different stages compared to their potential so what is applicable for some would be the wrong choice for others. Some people also simply respond differently to deficit/surplus/maintenance (as the Bret Contreras article touches on).
I'm too old with too many training years to add muscle quickly so can't effectively use a calorie surplus so my choice is recomp.
You are right that if I don't have time to eat properly for a bulk, then I also don't have time to train properly for a bulk. I manage to train on my lunch break. I have been going 4-5 times a week and have temporarily dropped on the cardio while I focus on muscle gains.
The muscle gains have been coming very slowly. I've only gained 1.5 inches on my glutes in 5 months. My weight has gone up by 2 lbs; but I also look "tighter" all over except the glutes. I'm 5'8" and 130 lbs and my guess is about 19% BF (going by comparing to pics on internet). I am a combination mesomorph and ectomorph (also inverted triangle body type - always been an athletic type build).
I'm 45 years old and perhaps bulking is not a good strategy (for me) since I would probably put on a lot of fat vs. muscle?0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?0 -
I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
What is of primary importance is your training - without muscle stimulus you don't get growth, that's where it starts.
Diet (calories and protein both very important of course) simply support the normal process of recovery/repair/growth.
As Eric Helms puts it - diet is permissive.
If you don't have the time to eat enough then I guess you don't have time to train effectively either - bulking would just be a way to get fat in that case
The "leaning out phase" really shouldn't result in very significant muscle loss if you do it properly.
Losing weight leads to a very likely loss of lean mass but muscle is only one component of lean mass (everything but fat effectively).
If you want real experiences then read the recomp thread....
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1
As kwtilbury shows people are at very different stages compared to their potential so what is applicable for some would be the wrong choice for others. Some people also simply respond differently to deficit/surplus/maintenance (as the Bret Contreras article touches on).
I'm too old with too many training years to add muscle quickly so can't effectively use a calorie surplus so my choice is recomp.
You are right that if I don't have time to eat properly for a bulk, then I also don't have time to train properly for a bulk. I manage to train on my lunch break. I have been going 4-5 times a week and have temporarily dropped on the cardio while I focus on muscle gains.
The muscle gains have been coming very slowly. I've only gained 1.5 inches on my glutes in 5 months. My weight has gone up by 2 lbs; but I also look "tighter" all over except the glutes. I'm 5'8" and 130 lbs and my guess is about 19% BF (going by comparing to pics on internet). I am a combination mesomorph and ectomorph (also inverted triangle body type - always been an athletic type build).
I'm 45 years old and perhaps bulking is not a good strategy (for me) since I would probably put on a lot of fat vs. muscle?
Definitely possible. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to start at maintenance, work on the training nutrition part and reassess after you have both those down pack.1 -
I do find that on days where I do progressive loading for barbell hip thrusts (currently 185 lbs), I do appear to need about an extra 150 calories that day. It really stimulates my metabolism.0
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Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
I was just going to comment on that article, but you said it perfectly... it all depends on your goals (and comfort level).
I was recomping for a bit and was too low in body fat to really get anywhere, so bulking is is for me. I just wasn't happy at my current weight and could definitely stand to put on weight to reach my goals0 -
I have being doing a ton of research and it's now out there that bulking up is not necessary to build muscle effectively and that you don't need to eat extra....and that what is important is the amount of protein you are taking in.
And that the leaning out phase causes you to lose most of your muscle gains and you are better off not bulking up in the first place.
Experienced body builders...what do you think?
What is of primary importance is your training - without muscle stimulus you don't get growth, that's where it starts.
Diet (calories and protein both very important of course) simply support the normal process of recovery/repair/growth.
As Eric Helms puts it - diet is permissive.
If you don't have the time to eat enough then I guess you don't have time to train effectively either - bulking would just be a way to get fat in that case
The "leaning out phase" really shouldn't result in very significant muscle loss if you do it properly.
Losing weight leads to a very likely loss of lean mass but muscle is only one component of lean mass (everything but fat effectively).
If you want real experiences then read the recomp thread....
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1
As kwtilbury shows people are at very different stages compared to their potential so what is applicable for some would be the wrong choice for others. Some people also simply respond differently to deficit/surplus/maintenance (as the Bret Contreras article touches on).
I'm too old with too many training years to add muscle quickly so can't effectively use a calorie surplus so my choice is recomp.
I'm 45 years old and perhaps bulking is not a good strategy (for me) since I would probably put on a lot of fat vs. muscle?
Definitely possible. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for you to start at maintenance, work on the training nutrition part and reassess after you have both those down pack.
Thank you very much. I will try this and see how it goes
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Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
I was just going to comment on that article, but you said it perfectly... it all depends on your goals (and comfort level).
I was recomping for a bit and was too low in body fat to really get anywhere, so bulking is is for me. I just wasn't happy at my current weight and could definitely stand to put on weight to reach my goals
You look beautiful in your dress btw You're doing something very right! 0 -
I feel like there are a lot of variables that go into making the decision to recomp vs. bulk/cut, which tend to be highly individualized and not easily encapsulated in articles like the one you posted. Things like "do I have time to train properly during a bulk? Would I be able to train as consistently as I'd like? Am I comfortable gaining fat, or is that going to make me freak out and possibly cut short my bulk? Since I'm a woman and it's best for me to gain more slowly than a man does, am I comfortable controlling my intake very carefully?" All of those things are valid concerns, but generalized internet articles don't tend to address them (although I think the Bret Contreras article you linked is very good).3
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I might not be an experienced bodybuilder, but I do lift weights and Powerlift. The day I decided to go on a ALL OUT EAT EVERYTHING IN SIGHT bulk is the day I passed my lifetime sticking point of 176lb. Today I am 200lbs and shooting for 210. Back in 2011 I was 126. Yes you will gain fat, but you can cut it later. I'm actually still fairly lean. Dramatic strength increase. Would do it 10x over. That's just me though. Everyone's different.1
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I feel like there are a lot of variables that go into making the decision to recomp vs. bulk/cut, which tend to be highly individualized and not easily encapsulated in articles like the one you posted. Things like "do I have time to train properly during a bulk? Would I be able to train as consistently as I'd like? Am I comfortable gaining fat, or is that going to make me freak out and possibly cut short my bulk? Since I'm a woman and it's best for me to gain more slowly than a man does, am I comfortable controlling my intake very carefully?" All of those things are valid concerns, but generalized internet articles don't tend to address them (although I think the Bret Contreras article you linked is very good).
I agree, and I would say (as others above have pointed out) age makes a difference. In my comparative youth I seemed to get away with bulk and cut cycles but I've recently I have had to face the fact that the muscle is going on slower, injuries are more likely, recovery is slower, and the fat feels harder to shift - So, my next bulk may be so conservative that it will appear more like a re-comp.
We are similar but not identical and the differences sometimes mean we need to approach things differently.2 -
Is a good indicator of bulk vs. body recomp (females mainly):
Maintaining the same (or smaller) waist measurement (recomp)?0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.0 -
Several excellent posts noting that the bulk/cut vs recomp is very individual, based on goals, training age, sex, etc.
I'm at a higher bf% than @sardelsa, which makes recomping a bit easier for me. Focusing purely on fat loss is not ideal because I can only use a very minor deficit due to a medical issue. There is no time advantage to me trying to cut fat at a moderate pace because it causes me enough trouble that I have to continually stop eating in a deficit in order to get my health back on track. I'm not going to repeatedly go through cycles of that long enough to get down to a lean weight and then start bulking so that 6 or 12 months later I again have to return to the slog of cutting. Just one round of that (getting to lean, bulking, and then leaning out again) would take me 3+ years and I would spend most of that time pretty miserable. It's better for me to eat around maintenance, maybe very very slightly under, and mostly focus on building muscle. I may have the same result in 3+ years but more of that time will be happy/enjoyable for me.3
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