Bulking not necessary for significant muscle gains - research out there
Replies
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Several excellent posts noting that the bulk/cut vs recomp is very individual, based on goals, training age, sex, etc.
I'm at a higher bf% than @sardelsa, which makes recomping a bit easier for me. Focusing purely on fat loss is not ideal because I can only use a very minor deficit due to a medical issue. There is no time advantage to me trying to cut fat at a moderate pace because it causes me enough trouble that I have to continually stop eating in a deficit in order to get my health back on track. I'm not going to repeatedly go through cycles of that long enough to get down to a lean weight and then start bulking so that 6 or 12 months later I again have to return to the slog of cutting. Just one round of that (getting to lean, bulking, and then leaning out again) would take me 3+ years and I would spend most of that time pretty miserable. It's better for me to eat around maintenance, maybe very very slightly under, and mostly focus on building muscle. I may have the same result in 3+ years but more of that time will be happy/enjoyable for me.
Good answer. I am learning that there is no right or wrong answer on this topic.
I always thought the only way to develop muscle was bulking and leaning (until now).0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approx age accepted
). 0 -
Several excellent posts noting that the bulk/cut vs recomp is very individual, based on goals, training age, sex, etc.
I'm at a higher bf% than @sardelsa, which makes recomping a bit easier for me. Focusing purely on fat loss is not ideal because I can only use a very minor deficit due to a medical issue. There is no time advantage to me trying to cut fat at a moderate pace because it causes me enough trouble that I have to continually stop eating in a deficit in order to get my health back on track. I'm not going to repeatedly go through cycles of that long enough to get down to a lean weight and then start bulking so that 6 or 12 months later I again have to return to the slog of cutting. Just one round of that (getting to lean, bulking, and then leaning out again) would take me 3+ years and I would spend most of that time pretty miserable. It's better for me to eat around maintenance, maybe very very slightly under, and mostly focus on building muscle. I may have the same result in 3+ years but more of that time will be happy/enjoyable for me.
Good answer. I am learning that there is no right or wrong answer on this topic.
I always thought the only way to develop muscle was bulking and leaning (until now).
There is rarely "a right and a wrong way"
There are simply to many variables for each person and their life style.
Personally- recomping is way to time consuming for me. And I have strength numbers I want to gain that go along with a bulk- so- I much prefer bulk/cut cycles.
Plus.
Oreos.
But it does work. It just takes a while.
2 -
Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat while eating at maintenance. I know of at least one example of a 37 year old male adding roughly 20lbs of muscle while losing the same amount of fat in roughly 2 years time.
Is it slower than bulk/cut cycles? Yes.3 -
@trigden1991trigden1991 wrote: »If you want to gain significant muscle, a suitable surplus is required. Eating at maintenance may be ok for a slight recomp effect but it is both slow and does not yield noticeable results.
Sweeping generalisations really aren't very helpful.
Recomp has worked very well for me at very different stages of my life. I've had "noticeable results" even in my 50's when for most of the year cycling is my priority - and some people have great results. @Hornsby for example.
You are incredibly negative about recomp - because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
You have achieved great results and more than likely recomp wouldn't get you anywhere now but you are hardly representative of everyone. This isn't BB.com and has a very wide spectrum of people from highly trained to never trained.
If I cut/bulked I would be miserable, it would impact my sport and I would most likely not make any faster progress than if I just recomped. That certainly doesn't mean everyone should recomp just as not everyone who wants to add some muscle needs to bulk.
Would ask you to be a bit more even handed!
The first sentence of my comment was "if you want to gain significant muscle" which was quoted from the OP's question. Recomp is slow and if your goal is to gain noticeable muscle you are far better off bulking. I did not fully condemn recomp however the OP asked the question and I answered.
A relative beginner (1-2 years lifting experience) male weightlifter could expect to gain 12lbs of muscle in a year. This is 1lb a month of lean mass which if one assumes 50:50 fat to muscle you need to gain 2lbs a month. That is a 250 calorie surplus daily. Eating at maintenance will not yield anything near to this.
Also as an aside comment on you reminding me this is not BB.com, I am fully aware and think that website is awful and full of "bro" advice. But thank you for jumping to conclusions0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approx age accepted ).
40 years young.0 -
Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat while eating at maintenance. I know of at least one example of a 37 year old male adding roughly 20lbs of muscle while losing the same amount of fat in roughly 2 years time.
Is it slower than bulk/cut cycles? Yes.
Didn't you say elsewhere that you are down to about 7% now? Are you still recomping, or did you move on to a bulk? Wouldn't you be at a point now where theoretically recomping would just be spinning your wheels (maybe some slow strength gains)?0 -
Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat while eating at maintenance. I know of at least one example of a 37 year old male adding roughly 20lbs of muscle while losing the same amount of fat in roughly 2 years time.
Is it slower than bulk/cut cycles? Yes.
Didn't you say elsewhere that you are down to about 7% now? Are you still recomping, or did you move on to a bulk? Wouldn't you be at a point now where theoretically recomping would just be spinning your wheels (maybe some slow strength gains)?
Yes. I am roughly 7%. I am still recomping. Spinning my wheels? I dunno. I feel like I am still seeing fat loss pretty consistently and my weight stays constant so theoretically I am gaining some type of lean mass. I will probably bulk in through the holidays. I think I have a mind that can finally handle it.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »
@trigden1991trigden1991 wrote: »If you want to gain significant muscle, a suitable surplus is required. Eating at maintenance may be ok for a slight recomp effect but it is both slow and does not yield noticeable results.
Sweeping generalisations really aren't very helpful.
Recomp has worked very well for me at very different stages of my life. I've had "noticeable results" even in my 50's when for most of the year cycling is my priority - and some people have great results. @Hornsby for example.
You are incredibly negative about recomp - because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
You have achieved great results and more than likely recomp wouldn't get you anywhere now but you are hardly representative of everyone. This isn't BB.com and has a very wide spectrum of people from highly trained to never trained.
If I cut/bulked I would be miserable, it would impact my sport and I would most likely not make any faster progress than if I just recomped. That certainly doesn't mean everyone should recomp just as not everyone who wants to add some muscle needs to bulk.
Would ask you to be a bit more even handed!
The first sentence of my comment was "if you want to gain significant muscle" which was quoted from the OP's question. Recomp is slow and if your goal is to gain noticeable muscle you are far better off bulking. I did not fully condemn recomp however the OP asked the question and I answered.
A relative beginner (1-2 years lifting experience) male weightlifter could expect to gain 12lbs of muscle in a year. This is 1lb a month of lean mass which if one assumes 50:50 fat to muscle you need to gain 2lbs a month. That is a 250 calorie surplus daily. Eating at maintenance will not yield anything near to this.
Also as an aside comment on you reminding me this is not BB.com, I am fully aware and think that website is awful and full of "bro" advice. But thank you for jumping to conclusions
"Does not yield noticeable results" is an absolute statement, not a statement about relative speed. That's my disagreement. It's up there with "a calorie surplus is needed to add muscle" which is another absolute statement which is patently untrue.
You are familiar with the long running recomp thread where there's plenty of examples of people of both genders achieving "noticeable results".
The bb.com comment was simply to remind you of the different audience, primarily bodybuilders v. a broad swathe of the population. I share your distaste of the twaddle talked on there.1 -
Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat while eating at maintenance. I know of at least one example of a 37 year old male adding roughly 20lbs of muscle while losing the same amount of fat in roughly 2 years time.
Is it slower than bulk/cut cycles? Yes.
Didn't you say elsewhere that you are down to about 7% now? Are you still recomping, or did you move on to a bulk? Wouldn't you be at a point now where theoretically recomping would just be spinning your wheels (maybe some slow strength gains)?
Yes. I am roughly 7%. I am still recomping. Spinning my wheels? I dunno. I feel like I am still seeing fat loss pretty consistently and my weight stays constant so theoretically I am gaining some type of lean mass. I will probably bulk in through the holidays. I think I have a mind that can finally handle it.
Awesome progress. I always thought there would be a minimum body fat floor where the body would just resist recomping any further fat loss, but I guess not.0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approx age accepted ).
I worked with a 36 year old women, who used cross-fit to recomp. In two years, she went from 153 @ 26% body fat, down to 150 @ 14.1% body fat. And that is validated by DEXA scan. So while @Hornsby is a beast, women can do it, too. And it can be quite effective.2 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approx age accepted ).
40 years young.
I'm older than you haha!0 -
Contreras there is contrasting recomp, clean bulk, and dirty bulk. All 3 are very different things that will have very different results. They suit different people depending on the individual's goals.
Recomp limits you to your current weight. A person with low body fat who wants to gain muscle will have to do a bulk of some sorts. I went from 150 lbs at my adult height to a peak of 230 lbs because I wanted to be as big as possible. Recomp could not have gotten me there.
wow...good for you! Did you find the leaning out difficult? How long did it take?
I don't remember exactly how long it took because that was 17+ years ago, but no, leaning out back then was pretty easy and I could drop 1-2 lbs a week without too much suffering. Agree with others above that aggressive bulks/cuts got less productive and harder as I got older.
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you (approx age accepted ).
I worked with a 36 year old women, who used cross-fit to recomp. In two years, she went from 153 @ 26% body fat, down to 150 @ 14.1% body fat. And that is validated by DEXA scan. So while @Hornsby is a beast, women can do it, too. And it can be quite effective.
Holy cow! That's amazing. Thanks for sharing!0 -
I've been able to do recomp over the last 4 months eating right around maintenance (a little higher one week, a little lower the next, but never significant in either direction). I've gone from 119 lbs to 118 lbs, and from 19 to 17% body fat. I've gained a ton of strength, lost a few inches, and can feel my body changing. It's a slow process, of course. My friends on a bulk definitely put on muscle faster than I do, but after losing 60 lbs in the previous year, I'm not quite ready to try my hand at putting some back on and have always aimed for the slow changes so I can become accustomed to a better lifestyle in general rather than swinging back and forth.
I do pay close attention to my macros--usually aim for 40 carbs, 30/30 protein and fat, but my typical day looks like more 35/35 carbs and protein and 30 fat, for what that's worth.0 -
Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat while eating at maintenance. I know of at least one example of a 37 year old male adding roughly 20lbs of muscle while losing the same amount of fat in roughly 2 years time.
Is it slower than bulk/cut cycles? Yes.
If I am consistent and eat 130g protein per day, eat at maintenance and focus on progressive overload, how much muscle could a 45 year old woman theoretically gain after 1 year? I would guess that I have gained approx 3-4 lbs of muscle since late April. I am curious and you have a lot of experience.
Thank you.0
This discussion has been closed.
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