Can I gain muscle while in deficit
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Short answer is no. Long answer is you might make a tiny initial gain but that won't continue and it won't be a significant amount.
Personal experience (its an anecdote of course but may as well share). I trained hard including lifting for 6 months. I tracked both my weight and my lean mass through bodyfat percentage measuring (calipers). I lost 28 pounds (about a pound a week so 500 deficit like you) and my muscles looked considerably more defined and I was significantly stronger. See my profile pictures for the progress shots between February and July of 2014.
That said during that time my lean mass did not change at all. I dropped fat, I maintained my muscle mass. No gains.
@Aaron_K123
You might be interested in my numbers as a comparison of the effects of size of deficit / rate of weight loss (for me at least).
I had lost the majority (25lbs) of my intended weight at roughly 1lb / week and lost as expected a mixture of fat and LBM (confirmed by scans and measurements). Despite the loss of LBM I had got back to a 'reasonable' level of strength by then (BW bench for example).
Switched to an ultra low deficit to lose a few more vanity pounds and in following six months:
Lost 7.7lbs of fat (40.1 to 32.4)
Gained 3.5lbs of LBM (132.5 to 136)
Net weight lost 4.2lbs (172.6 to 168.4)
Very noticeable change in body shape as arms and legs got bigger and my (fat) waist got smaller.
Continued to train hard both in the gym and outdoor cycling and made good progress. The difference in deficit doesn't seem to affect me significantly in terms of exercise performance but body composition results were markedly different.
Great work. I think that an ultra low calorie deficit would be the same as a recomp since you would be in the margin of error for maintenance and be osculating between surplus and deficit daily.
Side note, your metabolism would be slower due to the weight loss. How did you target your calories to account for this?
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I am under the belief that you can but it won't be a lot of new muscle development. But this is predicated on a lot of factors like is there adequate training stimuli, adequate nutrient, how new you are to lifting or are you a returner, genetics, age, sex, etc...
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
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I am under the belief that you can but it won't be a lot of new muscle development. But this is predicated on a lot of factors like is there adequate training stimuli, adequate nutrient, how new you are to lifting or are you a returner, genetics, age, sex, etc...
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
So is this one of those added benefits I wasn't aware of?
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I am under the belief that you can but it won't be a lot of new muscle development. But this is predicated on a lot of factors like is there adequate training stimuli, adequate nutrient, how new you are to lifting or are you a returner, genetics, age, sex, etc...
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
So is this one of those added benefits I wasn't aware of?
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I am under the belief that you can but it won't be a lot of new muscle development. But this is predicated on a lot of factors like is there adequate training stimuli, adequate nutrient, how new you are to lifting or are you a returner, genetics, age, sex, etc...
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
So is this one of those added benefits I wasn't aware of?
LOL THAT was what I was going for!
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@Wheelhouse15Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Short answer is no. Long answer is you might make a tiny initial gain but that won't continue and it won't be a significant amount.
Personal experience (its an anecdote of course but may as well share). I trained hard including lifting for 6 months. I tracked both my weight and my lean mass through bodyfat percentage measuring (calipers). I lost 28 pounds (about a pound a week so 500 deficit like you) and my muscles looked considerably more defined and I was significantly stronger. See my profile pictures for the progress shots between February and July of 2014.
That said during that time my lean mass did not change at all. I dropped fat, I maintained my muscle mass. No gains.
@Aaron_K123
You might be interested in my numbers as a comparison of the effects of size of deficit / rate of weight loss (for me at least).
I had lost the majority (25lbs) of my intended weight at roughly 1lb / week and lost as expected a mixture of fat and LBM (confirmed by scans and measurements). Despite the loss of LBM I had got back to a 'reasonable' level of strength by then (BW bench for example).
Switched to an ultra low deficit to lose a few more vanity pounds and in following six months:
Lost 7.7lbs of fat (40.1 to 32.4)
Gained 3.5lbs of LBM (132.5 to 136)
Net weight lost 4.2lbs (172.6 to 168.4)
Very noticeable change in body shape as arms and legs got bigger and my (fat) waist got smaller.
Continued to train hard both in the gym and outdoor cycling and made good progress. The difference in deficit doesn't seem to affect me significantly in terms of exercise performance but body composition results were markedly different.
Great work. I think that an ultra low calorie deficit would be the same as a recomp since you would be in the margin of error for maintenance and be osculating between surplus and deficit daily.
Side note, your metabolism would be slower due to the weight loss. How did you target your calories to account for this?
Thank you. Yes agree it's recomp with a tiny (average) deficit.
Not suitable for everyone of course (especially those with a lot to lose) but I put enjoying life and training (and food!) above speed of loss. Also as an "old fart" muscle lost takes ages to regain.
I use the "eat back exercise" calories method as I cycle a lot so need to fuel on the day and I also dislike feeling restricted by a same every day goal.
My base calorie goal was always set manually based on trends/results rather than calculators.
For most of my weight loss I followed the 5:2 eating protocol and having 5 days a week at maintenance certainly helped my exercise performance and kept glycogen topped up.
For the ultra low rate of loss I was mostly just restricting one day a week.
I probably eat more now than when I was fat as I do a larger volume of exercise, never had metabolic testing.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Short answer is no. Long answer is you might make a tiny initial gain but that won't continue and it won't be a significant amount.
Personal experience (its an anecdote of course but may as well share). I trained hard including lifting for 6 months. I tracked both my weight and my lean mass through bodyfat percentage measuring (calipers). I lost 28 pounds (about a pound a week so 500 deficit like you) and my muscles looked considerably more defined and I was significantly stronger. See my profile pictures for the progress shots between February and July of 2014.
That said during that time my lean mass did not change at all. I dropped fat, I maintained my muscle mass. No gains.
@Aaron_K123
You might be interested in my numbers as a comparison of the effects of size of deficit / rate of weight loss (for me at least).
I had lost the majority (25lbs) of my intended weight at roughly 1lb / week and lost as expected a mixture of fat and LBM (confirmed by scans and measurements). Despite the loss of LBM I had got back to a 'reasonable' level of strength by then (BW bench for example).
Switched to an ultra low deficit to lose a few more vanity pounds and in following six months:
Lost 7.7lbs of fat (40.1 to 32.4)
Gained 3.5lbs of LBM (132.5 to 136)
Net weight lost 4.2lbs (172.6 to 168.4)
Very noticeable change in body shape as arms and legs got bigger and my (fat) waist got smaller.
Continued to train hard both in the gym and outdoor cycling and made good progress. The difference in deficit doesn't seem to affect me significantly in terms of exercise performance but body composition results were markedly different.
Impressive results and if you saw progress both in your physique and in your performance that is the ideal situation. Do you assume that the increase in LBM was muscle mass?
I ask because a few months back I dropped roughly 35lbs going from 25% bodyfat to 14% in an 11 week period. Assuming that consisted of 7-10lbs of water/glycogen this means around 25lbs of fat loss and an average deficit of 1000 cals per day. My final readings taken by my coach indicated that my LBM had increased by 4lbs. This is obviously not muscle mass as it is inconceivable to gain that much muscle in that time period as an experied lifter in a surplus, let alone a severe deficit. I certainly looked bigger, my muscles were more prominent and many people commented that I looked like I had gained a tonne of size. At the end of the day it is all an illusion.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Short answer is no. Long answer is you might make a tiny initial gain but that won't continue and it won't be a significant amount.
Personal experience (its an anecdote of course but may as well share). I trained hard including lifting for 6 months. I tracked both my weight and my lean mass through bodyfat percentage measuring (calipers). I lost 28 pounds (about a pound a week so 500 deficit like you) and my muscles looked considerably more defined and I was significantly stronger. See my profile pictures for the progress shots between February and July of 2014.
That said during that time my lean mass did not change at all. I dropped fat, I maintained my muscle mass. No gains.
@Aaron_K123
You might be interested in my numbers as a comparison of the effects of size of deficit / rate of weight loss (for me at least).
I had lost the majority (25lbs) of my intended weight at roughly 1lb / week and lost as expected a mixture of fat and LBM (confirmed by scans and measurements). Despite the loss of LBM I had got back to a 'reasonable' level of strength by then (BW bench for example).
Switched to an ultra low deficit to lose a few more vanity pounds and in following six months:
Lost 7.7lbs of fat (40.1 to 32.4)
Gained 3.5lbs of LBM (132.5 to 136)
Net weight lost 4.2lbs (172.6 to 168.4)
Very noticeable change in body shape as arms and legs got bigger and my (fat) waist got smaller.
Continued to train hard both in the gym and outdoor cycling and made good progress. The difference in deficit doesn't seem to affect me significantly in terms of exercise performance but body composition results were markedly different.
Impressive results and if you saw progress both in your physique and in your performance that is the ideal situation. Do you assume that the increase in LBM was muscle mass?
I ask because a few months back I dropped roughly 35lbs going from 25% bodyfat to 14% in an 11 week period. Assuming that consisted of 7-10lbs of water/glycogen this means around 25lbs of fat loss and an average deficit of 1000 cals per day. My final readings taken by my coach indicated that my LBM had increased by 4lbs. This is obviously not muscle mass as it is inconceivable to gain that much muscle in that time period as an experied lifter in a surplus, let alone a severe deficit. I certainly looked bigger, my muscles were more prominent and many people commented that I looked like I had gained a tonne of size. At the end of the day it is all an illusion.
@trigden1991
Thank you.
Very hard to tell what proportion of the LBM gain was muscle of course.
Based on the totality of the evidence I would say the majority was muscle gain but it's like piecing together a jigsaw!
Arms & legs measured increases and also more defined.
Visibly lost stomach fat and inches.
Visibly lost fat from my chest but gained lat muscle size to keep that measurement the same.
Progressively added weights to my lifts (beyond the initial CNS related strength gains by then). Training didn't really change (alternate days cardio and weights).
I always kept glycogen topped up so shouldn't be too much of a variable (high carb diet plus fuelling for long rides plus eating mostly at maintenance).
Scans were repeated in the same sports science lab and backed up by a (surprisingly reliable) trend from a 4 point BIA device.
In the end, short of dissection
, I think it was mostly muscle.
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trigden1991 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Short answer is no. Long answer is you might make a tiny initial gain but that won't continue and it won't be a significant amount.
Personal experience (its an anecdote of course but may as well share). I trained hard including lifting for 6 months. I tracked both my weight and my lean mass through bodyfat percentage measuring (calipers). I lost 28 pounds (about a pound a week so 500 deficit like you) and my muscles looked considerably more defined and I was significantly stronger. See my profile pictures for the progress shots between February and July of 2014.
That said during that time my lean mass did not change at all. I dropped fat, I maintained my muscle mass. No gains.
@Aaron_K123
You might be interested in my numbers as a comparison of the effects of size of deficit / rate of weight loss (for me at least).
I had lost the majority (25lbs) of my intended weight at roughly 1lb / week and lost as expected a mixture of fat and LBM (confirmed by scans and measurements). Despite the loss of LBM I had got back to a 'reasonable' level of strength by then (BW bench for example).
Switched to an ultra low deficit to lose a few more vanity pounds and in following six months:
Lost 7.7lbs of fat (40.1 to 32.4)
Gained 3.5lbs of LBM (132.5 to 136)
Net weight lost 4.2lbs (172.6 to 168.4)
Very noticeable change in body shape as arms and legs got bigger and my (fat) waist got smaller.
Continued to train hard both in the gym and outdoor cycling and made good progress. The difference in deficit doesn't seem to affect me significantly in terms of exercise performance but body composition results were markedly different.
Impressive results and if you saw progress both in your physique and in your performance that is the ideal situation. Do you assume that the increase in LBM was muscle mass?
I ask because a few months back I dropped roughly 35lbs going from 25% bodyfat to 14% in an 11 week period. Assuming that consisted of 7-10lbs of water/glycogen this means around 25lbs of fat loss and an average deficit of 1000 cals per day. My final readings taken by my coach indicated that my LBM had increased by 4lbs. This is obviously not muscle mass as it is inconceivable to gain that much muscle in that time period as an experied lifter in a surplus, let alone a severe deficit. I certainly looked bigger, my muscles were more prominent and many people commented that I looked like I had gained a tonne of size. At the end of the day it is all an illusion.
@trigden1991
Thank you.
Very hard to tell what proportion of the LBM gain was muscle of course.
Based on the totality of the evidence I would say the majority was muscle gain but it's like piecing together a jigsaw!
Arms & legs measured increases and also more defined.
Visibly lost stomach fat and inches.
Visibly lost fat from my chest but gained lat muscle size to keep that measurement the same.
Progressively added weights to my lifts (beyond the initial CNS related strength gains by then). Training didn't really change (alternate days cardio and weights).
I always kept glycogen topped up so shouldn't be too much of a variable (high carb diet plus fuelling for long rides plus eating mostly at maintenance).
Scans were repeated in the same sports science lab and backed up by a (surprisingly reliable) trend from a 4 point BIA device.
In the end, short of dissection , I think it was mostly muscle.
If all the evidence points to it then that's the conclusion to draw naturally! Thanks for the in depth response and again, congratulations on finding what works for you.2 -
This thread has been very interesting.
I have been trying to decide what my new goals are and am frankly not 100% sure about what is going to drive me. I've been in a holding pattern for a few months after losing 20 lbs in about 20 weeks. I could probably stand to lose 10 more. According to the body fat calculator, I am about 24%. I'm feeling pretty good and unhurried so I set a 5-lb new mini goal and started tracking again, with a 0.5 lb per week deficit. Admittedly, I haven't been very rigorous about it, but it's working. 1 lb down.
I also want to build strength and some muscle. I've been inspired by the things achieved by people who do progressive bodyweight training, and intrigued by the fast results achievable through lifting. I am 51 years old, so maintaining /adding bone is going to be important too. It sounds like recomp might be the thing for me. My current plan is to start with bodyweight training (with a progression plan, which I did not have before) and see how progression goes. Then maybe consider weight lifting.
But with 10 lbs left to lose, I am wondering if I should focus on that first. Feeling indecisive and trepidatious (and lazy). Should I get a caliper to get a more accurate measure of my body fat before deciding on deficit or TDEE? What else should I consider to help me decide?
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CorneliusPhoton wrote: »This thread has been very interesting.
I have been trying to decide what my new goals are and am frankly not 100% sure about what is going to drive me. I've been in a holding pattern for a few months after losing 20 lbs in about 20 weeks. I could probably stand to lose 10 more. According to the body fat calculator, I am about 24%. I'm feeling pretty good and unhurried so I set a 5-lb new mini goal and started tracking again, with a 0.5 lb per week deficit. Admittedly, I haven't been very rigorous about it, but it's working. 1 lb down.
I also want to build strength and some muscle. I've been inspired by the things achieved by people who do progressive bodyweight training, and intrigued by the fast results achievable through lifting. I am 51 years old, so maintaining /adding bone is going to be important too. It sounds like recomp might be the thing for me. My current plan is to start with bodyweight training (with a progression plan, which I did not have before) and see how progression goes. Then maybe consider weight lifting.
But with 10 lbs left to lose, I am wondering if I should focus on that first. Feeling indecisive and trepidatious (and lazy). Should I get a caliper to get a more accurate measure of my body fat before deciding on deficit or TDEE? What else should I consider to help me decide?
If you think you're close to your goal; recomp. If you think you'd look better with 10lbs less bodyfat; cut first then recomp.0 -
If we're talking SIGNIFICANT gains, possibly. People who usually gain will be untrained, very overweight or obese, and a returning trainer after a long layoff. If you're someone who's been training on and off or just training and not watching your calories, when you go into a deficit, then I'll say it's not likely.
If one really wants to see how much lean muscle they actually have, they'd have to get down to lower body fat percentages. And when people get down to those percentages, the perception is that they gained muscle when that may not likely be the case. I ALWAYS looked bigger when I was cut up.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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If we're talking SIGNIFICANT gains, possibly. People who usually gain will be untrained, very overweight or obese, and a returning trainer after a long layoff. If you're someone who's been training on and off or just training and not watching your calories, when you go into a deficit, then I'll say it's not likely.
If one really wants to see how much lean muscle they actually have, they'd have to get down to lower body fat percentages. And when people get down to those percentages, the perception is that they gained muscle when that may not likely be the case. I ALWAYS looked bigger when I was cut up.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
so true...or if they confuse strength gains with muscle gains...0 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »This thread has been very interesting.
I have been trying to decide what my new goals are and am frankly not 100% sure about what is going to drive me. I've been in a holding pattern for a few months after losing 20 lbs in about 20 weeks. I could probably stand to lose 10 more. According to the body fat calculator, I am about 24%. I'm feeling pretty good and unhurried so I set a 5-lb new mini goal and started tracking again, with a 0.5 lb per week deficit. Admittedly, I haven't been very rigorous about it, but it's working. 1 lb down.
I also want to build strength and some muscle. I've been inspired by the things achieved by people who do progressive bodyweight training, and intrigued by the fast results achievable through lifting. I am 51 years old, so maintaining /adding bone is going to be important too. It sounds like recomp might be the thing for me. My current plan is to start with bodyweight training (with a progression plan, which I did not have before) and see how progression goes. Then maybe consider weight lifting.
But with 10 lbs left to lose, I am wondering if I should focus on that first. Feeling indecisive and trepidatious (and lazy). Should I get a caliper to get a more accurate measure of my body fat before deciding on deficit or TDEE? What else should I consider to help me decide?
I'm 48, so similar age and I've got some muscle but I'm not bodybuilder standard by any stretch of the imagination, so maybe that will affect my answer and your interpretation of it.
My last bulk/cut cycle was difficult. Sure the lifts increase and I enjoyed the food but I quickly felt "fat" and getting that fat back off after felt herder than ever. So, I feel that although in the past I've been a cheerleader for bulk/cut I am beginning to lean more towards a recomp style.
Why? Because my muscle growth is slowing it means that, even on a conservative bulk, I'm likely to gain more fat than muscle. Age, also means that if I go too hard in the gym and get injured it's going to take me longer to recover than it did when I was in my 30s. Finally, as above, the cuts feel harder (although I doubt they really are).
It's also worth bringing up that nutrient partitioning (I think it's called) dictates that (when all else is the same) fatter people will gain proportionally more fat on a bulk than lean individuals (who will gain similar weight but more of it will be muscle). I have to say, I was sceptical of this theory but apparently there is science to back it up and it does confirm the Bro-science adage that you cut to 10% BF before a bulk.
So, in your case, I may be tempted to push to a lower BF (although IMHO 10% is too low and would limit your recomp - as mentioned in earlier posts in this thread) then take a re-comp approach.
Final point - Since re-comp relies on short periods of surplus and short periods of deficit I assume that Calorie and carbohydrate cycling may be of benefit when re-comping (I've yet to research this) and if/when I'm ready for my next round (I tried it sometime ago but was not disciplined enough to see results) I will be looking into that technique also.2 -
Thank you, @StealthHealth. 5 more pounds shouldn't take very long, so I'll reevaluate after I lose it. Going to get more disciplined with bodyweight training in the meantime.
New question: does anybody have a feel for the rate of bone mass gain relative to that of muscle gain, assuming eating at a surplus and adequate nutrition? I assume it is rather slow. Just curious.0 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »Thank you, @StealthHealth. 5 more pounds shouldn't take very long, so I'll reevaluate after I lose it. Going to get more disciplined with bodyweight training in the meantime.
New question: does anybody have a feel for the rate of bone mass gain relative to that of muscle gain, assuming eating at a surplus and adequate nutrition? I assume it is rather slow. Just curious.
Not a lot of gain as you age, about 1-3%/year for older people who train BUT compared to about a 2-3% decline for those who don't train the net gain is pretty good all things considered.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16702776
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Saying flat out no is wrong. I don't lift, but I did go from completely sedentary to around 1000 steps 5 days a week. Within a few months, my back aches went away, my core was noticeably stronger and I no longer had trouble getting up that one hill in my neighborhood. My legs went from amorphous to chiseled looking by comparison. All this happened at a net deficit, losing only around 20 pounds over 6 months. Anecdotal as heck, I know, but I'd swear I traded fat for muscle.0
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Saying flat out no is wrong. I don't lift, but I did go from completely sedentary to around 1000 steps 5 days a week. Within a few months, my back aches went away, my core was noticeably stronger and I no longer had trouble getting up that one hill in my neighborhood. My legs went from amorphous to chiseled looking by comparison. All this happened at a net deficit, losing only around 20 pounds over 6 months. Anecdotal as heck, I know, but I'd swear I traded fat for muscle.
What you are referring to is muscular efficiency. Your current muscles are becoming efficient through neuromuscular adaptations.2 -
Why do people worry about this so much...just get in there and train and eat well...the rest will take care of itself.1
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Why do people worry about this so much...just get in there and train and eat well...the rest will take care of itself.
Eat, train, sleep repeat...0
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