Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Does calories in vs calories out really matter?
Options
Replies
-
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
If that is correct, then I've found something that I do much more effectively than non-type 1's (finally).
I wonder what would happen to someone who is fat adapted. Since glycogen is generally reduced significantly in early stages of of low carb WOE, do those who have become fat adapted still release a lot of glycogen when eating protein?0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »What kind of question is this? That's like asking if it's really that important to know how to operate a car to get your drivers license. It's the ONLY thing that matters. Eat too much, you're not losing a dang thing.
There are plenty of people who do not believe in CICO, including many doctors like Dr. Fung.
Yep, here is his take on cico:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
"I studied biochemistry in university and took a full year course on thermodynamics. At no point did we ever discuss the human body or weight gain/ loss."
I'm guessing he did not get stellar marks in his biochem or thermo class.
I majored in biochemistry and genetics, and the biochem classes were more about differences and similarities in processes between prokaryotes/eukaryotes, plant/animal, you get the idea. Not so much that was tied particularly to humans except by default as members of the animal kingdom.
Physics classes never mentioned any applicability to the human body. I took first-year physics and physical chemistry (intersection of physics and chemistry). Presumably explicitly connecting these things to human physiology as part of the classwork is the kind of thing you'd get in medical school, not so much in undergrad where you're taught the broader principles unless you take something specifically oriented that way like human physiology or human nutrition.
That said, it's not any kind of decent reason to suggest that CICO is irrelevant
So you find it plausible that a person who is competent enough and puts in enough effort to pass a class that is an entire semester worth of macromolecules and metabolic pathways never realizes that it applies to humans because the professor did not explicitly announce that humans are animals? I am not buying it.
I am also highly skeptical that an introductory thermodynamics class did not at least briefly cover energy transfer in biological systems.
No, I don't. Thus:That said, it's not any kind of decent reason to suggest that CICO is irrelevant
My point is that the statement may very well be factual. It's the kind of tactic frequently used when you know damn well there are holes in your story but you don't have anything solid to back them up. Use the truth and make it sound like it means more than or something different than it does.
I mean, what difference does it make if some class you took didn't teach certain verifiable facts. Does it mean they aren't true or are meaningless, or does it mean that either your class was sub-standard or those facts weren't relevant to the goal of the class?
As for your last statement, we didn't have a 'thermodynamics' class available so I can't really say. In my classwork, thermodynamics came up in undergrad multiple times as part of:
physics (not connected to biology),
chemistry (not connected to biology),
biochemistry (connected to biology),
physical chemistry (not connected to biology),
organic chemistry (both biological and non-biological)
I got your point. Since you claim to be well-educated in biochemistry, I was asking if you found Fung's account plausible, so thanks for the confirmation. I agree the actual content of his course syllabus is rather immaterial, as I also understand that it is possible that his account is true. However, I believe it is near the same probability of being true as the hypothetical person who claims to watch the entire World Series without understanding they were watching baseball.
As an electrical engineer, I find his account of taking a year of thermodynamics and not making the connection that the human body is a thermodynamic system to be laughable. His entire article demonstrates a gross misunderstanding (or perhaps, misrepresentation) of thermodynamic fundamentals. I likewise have to conclude that he is intelligent enough to persuade laypeople of his arguments, though I also perceive his motivation to most likely be profit oriented at the expense of his own cognitive dissonance.
Sadly, I'd find that to be more plausible. I work in a major health care system in research. I've heard the nonsense about 'the laws of thermodynamics don't really apply because a body/cell culture is not a closed system' more than once from people with degrees that ought to indicate a higher level of knowledge (MD, PhD). Presumably, all of them had at least the classwork I had in undergrad at some point*. Maybe they scraped by with Cs and Ds?
Oh, and before you make any assumptions about me being well-educated in biochemistry, I am. But I've not worked in the field in any meaningful way in nearly 20yrs, so the education has largely degenerated to: 'I remember something about this or that - let's go look it up and make sure my memory isn't faulty'.
*Except perhaps physical chemistry.
Interesting. I never see those kind of shenanigans in my field. Perhaps it is because we have to design things that work to do a very specific task, so there is not a lot of theoretical interpretation involved. I will chalk it up to the MDs just forgetting the basics because it was that one 8 AM Monday class they took a long time ago, during that semester they were experimenting with mushrooms.
In fact, the only time I think I have ever read people use this hand-waving open system argument is in the fitness/nutrition industry. It usually precedes an argument that sounds like: "I am about to propose a tangent that ignores several centuries of established physics, but the human body is an open system, so the laws of thermodynamics can be ignored. Here are some misinterpreted results from a recent study that proves my point."
Fun fact: I recently managed to put a drill bit through my thumb. Instead of stitching me up, the doctors left the wound open to drain. After this accident, I discovered I now have the ability to eat infinite cheeseburgers without gaining weight. One would assume that I would accumulate some body fat by eating such a large amount of calories, but when the skin was breached, my body became an open thermodynamic system. The truth is, an open system can exchange matter with its surrounding environment, so clearly no laws of physics have been violated. In fact, recent studies have shown that when the thermodynamic boundary has been compromised, standard human thermoregulation models decompose, and metabolism is in fact increased so significantly that lipogenesis is inhibited (1)."
Do you like how this works?
10 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.
Protein triggers glucagon which triggers insulin. Insulin acts as a key to the cell to take in nutrients.
Also, you may find the insulin index interesting (the original is behind paid doors, but this is a summation of it). It's what James Kreiger was discussing on the weightology page.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.
Protein triggers glucagon which triggers insulin. Insulin acts as a key to the cell to take in nutrients.
Also, you may find the insulin index interesting (the original is behind paid doors, but this is a summation of it). It's what James Kreiger was discussing on the weightology page.
Then my decades of personal observation and experience does show that I have an advantage, though it isn't exactly clear why I'm not making glucagon in this circumstances despite that I make glucagon in other circumstances... I know why I don't make insulin, of course.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.
Protein triggers glucagon which triggers insulin. Insulin acts as a key to the cell to take in nutrients.
Also, you may find the insulin index interesting (the original is behind paid doors, but this is a summation of it). It's what James Kreiger was discussing on the weightology page.
Then my decades of personal observation and experience does show that I have an advantage, though it isn't exactly clear why I'm not making glucagon in this circumstances despite that I make glucagon in other circumstances... I know why I don't make insulin, of course.
Keep in mind, all this research is on people who don't have medical issues. Having medical issues can alter processes. So applying what you have to do, to the general population would be incorrect.4 -
Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I will also add that my system has always worked very strangely and my friends call me backwards: caffeine makes me sleepy, eating sugar makes my glucose go down, and my heartrate and blood pressure go up in deep sleep and often go down during activity. Doctors hate me, my body always does the opposite of what they think it will
So YOU'RE the one I'm always hearing about.
4 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.
Protein triggers glucagon which triggers insulin. Insulin acts as a key to the cell to take in nutrients.
Also, you may find the insulin index interesting (the original is behind paid doors, but this is a summation of it). It's what James Kreiger was discussing on the weightology page.
Then my decades of personal observation and experience does show that I have an advantage, though it isn't exactly clear why I'm not making glucagon in this circumstances despite that I make glucagon in other circumstances... I know why I don't make insulin, of course.
Keep in mind, all this research is on people who don't have medical issues. Having medical issues can alter processes. So applying what you have to do, to the general population would be incorrect.
This always gets glossed over...3 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »...I'm not going to denounce keto and lchf, but I will point out that adherents to these plans get the benefit of TEF and have a more complicated calculation in tracking their net calories.
If they're truly eating LCHF/keto, there's absolutely no benefit of TEF (which is a drop in the bucket anyway). Protein elicits an insulin response very similar to carbohydrates, so it can interfere with ketosis. Protein levels on LCHF diets are usually kept to the low/moderate side, skewing in favor of fats. And the TEF of fat is the lowest of all the macronutrients.
No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
It would depend on the type of protein and type of carbohydrate for comparison. Many proteins do have a very similar response as carbs. I will see if i can find the study but i was quite amazed.
I'm sure if you find an extremely slow-absorbing carb and an extremely fast-absorbing protein, then remove outside factors such as pairing with other macros, bio-availability of amylin, etc.; you might be able to find some that are similar in those extremes. But if you take a random protein and a random carb, the comparison is nowhere near the same.
Read the studies I linked above. You'll find that you're mistaken.
The study you linked doesn't address my point at all because both meals contained both carbs and protein.
Can you find a study to compare 0 carb and 30g+ protein with a separate 30g+ carb 0 protein?
Because I have to measure and obtain insulin manually (unlike most people, I don't make any of my own), I've become really good at understanding how different types of foods affect BG over the decades that I've had to do this. For the years I've been wearing a CGM, I've become even better at seeing the minute to minute changes.
But, if the explanation is that glucagon is released with protein, then perhaps that is a function not happening unless insulin is also released. In my case, I can make glucagon, just not insulin (or amylin). I'll acknowledge that it is possible that in a normal person, insulin is released and therefore causes hypoglycemia because protein doesn't raise glucose as quickly. To counter-act impending hypoglycemia, glucagon is released. I can consider that plausible, perhaps. It sounds pretty inefficient, though, for an evolved species like homo sapiens.
Further down the page in this paragraph, he links to a study indicating that beef stimulates just as much insulin secretion as brown rice - but only the abstract is available free, the actual study is behind a paywall at AJCN:...The fact is that protein is a potent stimulator of insulin secretion, and this insulin secretion is not related to changes in blood sugar or gluconeogenesis from the protein. In fact, one study found beef to stimulate just as much insulin secretion as brown rice. The blood sugar response of 38 different foods could only explain 23% of the variability in insulin secretion in this study. Thus, there's a lot more that's behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate...
As far as it sounding inefficient, there are other highly inefficient processes that occur in homo sapiens - de novo lipogenesis being the first one that comes to mind.
Really, it shouldn't shock anyone, given that consuming protein for repair and/or growth would be completely pointless in the absence of carbs, if protein didn't elicit it's own insulin response.
I am not sure why it's that surprising either. Protein causes your body to release glucagon, which has a response on blood sugar, which releases insulin so the body can take in amino acids. Proteins like whey, are very fast acting. And that insulin response from whey, is one of the reason's it got so much attention in the lifting community. Insulin, mechanical stress and leucine activates mTOR, which is responsible for muscle protein synthesis.
Order of events is extremely relevant.
1. Protein Consumption --> Glucagon --> Insulin
2. Protein Consumption --> Insulin --> Glucagon
In the case of #2, my original point (protein does not cause the same glucose spikes as carbs both in amount and timing) stands. And, if #2 is correct, it also fits into my decades of personal observations that my body reacts the same as others with the exception of the function that I am unable to complete (insulin production). So if protein consumption stimulates insulin production, then my point still stands. If protein consumption stimulates glucagon production, then it doesn't. We can't really tell or compare with these studies that include both carbs and protein. If a study were designed to compare just carbs with just protein, with more frequent BG data points, then we can get closer to identifying which of these is correct. Can anyone say whether protein triggers glucagon, which will trigger insulin? Or if protein triggers insulin, which will trigger glucagon.
Protein triggers glucagon which triggers insulin. Insulin acts as a key to the cell to take in nutrients.
Also, you may find the insulin index interesting (the original is behind paid doors, but this is a summation of it). It's what James Kreiger was discussing on the weightology page.
Then my decades of personal observation and experience does show that I have an advantage, though it isn't exactly clear why I'm not making glucagon in this circumstances despite that I make glucagon in other circumstances... I know why I don't make insulin, of course.
Keep in mind, all this research is on people who don't have medical issues. Having medical issues can alter processes. So applying what you have to do, to the general population would be incorrect.
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
ETA: Also, I almost always eat in isolation. Do most people? I don't know, but I would guess that you are right and most people don't. I do because it helps with BG management, but most people probably don't need to do that because their bodies react to BG changes automatically. Once again, though, the spike in BG due to carbs vs. the spike in BG due to protein isn't necessarily different for me, it is just that I have to think about it, plan, and react manually.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful
That's what I said.
I will repeat my original point: Protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes as do carbs.
ETA: This is from the article you just linked:The release of glucose from protein from gluconeogenesis is much smoother and slower compared to carbohydrate.
THAT is exactly the point I made.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful
That's what I said.
I will repeat my original point: Protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes as do carbs.
Looking back at your original post on the subject, what you said was:No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
As a diabetic, I'm sure you know the difference between a BG spike and an insulin response.3 -
Without getting scientific, let's keep this simple. Weight loss is mostly - though not entirely - determined by diet. And the only way to lose weight is to make sure you're running a calorie deficit. That said, we're really talking about WHAT, WHEN, and HOW MUCH you eat. If you're working out, make sure you're not eating you're not eating your exercise calories and keep that deficit in mind.2
-
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful
That's what I said.
I will repeat my original point: Protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes as do carbs.
Looking back at your original post on the subject, what you said was:No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
As a diabetic, I'm sure you know the difference between a BG spike and an insulin response.
Yes, I know the differences and the relationships between them. Do you? I'm sorry - sometimes I forget to consider the amount of knowledge that others in the conversation would have. For those who don't know:
BG rises lead to an insulin response
So in the case of a BG spike (large and fast-moving rise in BG), there is a large and fast insulin response (automatically occurring among those who are capable of this process... I have to manage the insulin response manually).
In the case of a slow BG rise over a long period of time (as with protein), the insulin response is small and over a longer period of time.
So the point that the insulin response from carbs vs. protein are quite different for timing and mount is the very same point that protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes (protein doesn't spike at all, just a slower rise) as carbs.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful
That's what I said.
I will repeat my original point: Protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes as do carbs.
Looking back at your original post on the subject, what you said was:No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
As a diabetic, I'm sure you know the difference between a BG spike and an insulin response.
Yes, I know the differences and the relationships between them. Do you? I'm sorry - sometimes I forget to consider the amount of knowledge that others in the conversation would have. For those who don't know:
BG rises lead to an insulin response
So in the case of a BG spike (large and fast-moving rise in BG), there is a large and fast insulin response (automatically occurring among those who are capable of this process... I have to manage the insulin response manually).
In the case of a slow BG rise over a long period of time (as with protein), the insulin response is small and over a longer period of time.
So the point that the insulin response from carbs vs. protein are quite different for timing and mount is the very same point that protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes (protein doesn't spike at all, just a slower rise) as carbs.
The original argument, which drove this discussion on page 4, was never on BG, It was about insulin. Only recently did we start discussing both BG and insulin.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/38062078/#Comment_38062078
ETA: not all high insulin spikes have corresponding high BG spikes. It appears the interaction between glucagon and insulin can offset each other.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »
Yes, that is always kept in mind. I have an incredible understanding of my disease - more training on it than most physicians, and much more experience obviously as well. When I hear someone who doesn't understand why my results are not what they expect and can't explain it just default to, "Well, it must have something to do with your disease" as a cop-out, my kitten detector goes off.
Despite all of my knowledge and experience, I know nothing that would cause glucagon release to occur differently for me under the scenario described. It would still be interesting to see if anyone is working on a study (in non-type 1's, of course) to independently review BG results of carbs vs. protein rather than just different mixtures of both. And I would be interested to see similar reviews of fat adapted individuals for comparison.
Having said all of that, I'm not sure that your linked summary actually disagrees with my previous point.In a healthy person that has fasted for more than 10-12 hours overnight, cheese and steak can cause a small rise in blood glucose in the second hour of our 2 hour test periods due to gluconeogenesis.
Unlike what this showed with protein and fat, carbs show a BG response more quickly than "in the second hour" and the rise in BG is not small. So this little tidbit showing a situation without carbs (or at least very small amounts of carbs as there is often a small amount in cheese) still follows my original point. So we are comparing really high carb with only slightly high carb in one case, along with various levels of protein. Without much information, a snippet of no/very low carb, contrasts with both the slightly high carb (75g) and the really high carb (150g) meal.
So even if the test would be done in isolation, how would that apply? It's essentially equivalent to the GI system, which is fairly worthless. No one eats solely in isolation. Do you? Studies can be interesting, but application is what matters.
And I am pretty sure all insulin index was created in isolation (1000kj worth), 10-12 hour fast and normalized to pure glucose.
It would be relevant because it could actually answer the question about how protein affects BG. When combined with carbs, we see an effect on BG that we already know occurs when someone eats carbs.
Proteins affect BG and insulin, in some cases differently. They may have a higher insulin response, but a low BG response. From my small understand, insulin can offset the affect of glucagon.
eta: I found: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/06/15/the-blood-glucose-glucagon-and-insulin-response-to-protein/
Maybe this is helpful
That's what I said.
I will repeat my original point: Protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes as do carbs.
Looking back at your original post on the subject, what you said was:No, not very similar. There is an insulin response, but timing and amount are both quite different.
As a diabetic, I'm sure you know the difference between a BG spike and an insulin response.
Yes, I know the differences and the relationships between them. Do you? I'm sorry - sometimes I forget to consider the amount of knowledge that others in the conversation would have. For those who don't know:
BG rises lead to an insulin response
So in the case of a BG spike (large and fast-moving rise in BG), there is a large and fast insulin response (automatically occurring among those who are capable of this process... I have to manage the insulin response manually).
In the case of a slow BG rise over a long period of time (as with protein), the insulin response is small and over a longer period of time.
So the point that the insulin response from carbs vs. protein are quite different for timing and mount is the very same point that protein does not cause the same level of BG spikes (protein doesn't spike at all, just a slower rise) as carbs.
The original argument, which drove this discussion on page 4, was never on BG, It was about insulin. Only recently did we start discussing both BG and insulin.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/38062078/#Comment_38062078
ETA: not all high insulin spikes have corresponding high BG spikes. It appears the interaction between glucagon and insulin can offset each other.
Yes, the interaction between glucagon raising BG and insulin lowering BG can offset each other, but it isn't exactly a primary goal of our body to just fight itself like that. The idea is that glucagon raises BG when needed (because of other factors than insulin) and that insulin lowers BG when it rises (due to factors other than glucagon). So the original discussion really was about both BG and insulin. Even if you didn't understand there is a relationship between BG and insulin (and glucagon and a bunch of other things), BG is the most important part of the discussion about insulin. It isn't like they are completely different and unrelated concepts.
More recently in the discussion, the surprising idea presented is that protein causes a reaction of insulin or glucagon, and therefore affecting BG, then causing a reaction of the opposite of either glucagon or insulin (since insulin and glucagon respond to high or low BG). If you can't tell, I'm still not convinced that this is the case beyond what I already know of the very slow and small BG rise (and insulin reaction as a result) caused by protein consumption.0 -
In other words, my original point is that carbs cause a spike in BG (and a fast and quick insulin response to the BG spike) and protein creates a much slower and smaller rise in BG (and a much slower and smaller insulin response to the small and slow BG rise). The effect of carbs on insulin and BG is very different than the effect of protein on insulin and BG.
At this point, I can't tell if there is disagreement about that point or if it just isn't understood. I acknowledge that I don't often articulate my knowledge very well; but I've tried to say the same thing several different ways and instead of better understanding each time, I get the impression that people become more confused. When I see responses that make my point and yet are intended to debate the same point, I feel like what I'm saying just isn't understood. I'm not exactly a teacher, and I don't know how I can be more clear. So I'm just going to leave it at that unless you can give some additional feedback to help me to better explain this to you.0 -
Raptor2763 wrote: »Without getting scientific, let's keep this simple. Weight loss is mostly - though not entirely - determined by diet. And the only way to lose weight is to make sure you're running a calorie deficit. That said, we're really talking about WHAT, WHEN, and HOW MUCH you eat. If you're working out, make sure you're not eating you're not eating your exercise calories and keep that deficit in mind.
Nope. Weight loss is determined through calorie intake vs. calorie expenditure. Period. What and when are relevant to other issues, but not to weight loss. People have successfully lost weight eating 8 meals per day, one meal per day, intermittent fasting (18:6, 5/2, etc.), 3 meals per day - any combination you can think of. It comes down to calorie deficit.
You're also misguided regarding exercise calories - perhaps you just don't understand the concept.2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 389 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 919 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions