How much to run
Replies
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »You could afford to add a third run, as upthread start at two miles and build that to four over a month or so.
Then start adding a bit too one of those until you get to six miles, then build the other two up to six miles each.
At that point you could afford to start thinking about something a bit more sophisticated than long steady, but there isn't much value until that point.
I will try that next week, I think. I already did 3 runs this week at ~3 miles, so I'll call that good to avoid tempting injury.
I'm not entirely clear on your meaning in the last sentence of your post. Do you mean more sophisticated training methods?
Generally I wouldn't go below three rings per week, so add that for now. Your current mileage is about where is suggest for starting to build up. You just need to keep it gentle from that perspective, as upthread.
In this kind of thread you frequently find non runners recommending stuff like sprints. That's generally inadvisable for most new runners until they have a really solid training base.
Noting the suggestion of Galloway above, personally I don't like that approach. It's good for coming in to running but I'm less convinced about it beyond there.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.
Problem is, your observations on footstrike don't really contribute anything of any value to the originator, and potentially confuse the issue.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.
Problem is, your observations on footstrike don't really contribute anything of any value to the originator, and potentially confuse the issue.
The OP said that after starting running he "ended up with some significant leg pain" and that he's a "little paranoid of re-injuring" himself.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.
Problem is, your observations on footstrike don't really contribute anything of any value to the originator, and potentially confuse the issue.
The OP said that after starting running he "ended up with some significant leg pain" and that he's a "little paranoid of re-injuring" himself.
Entirely accurate. There are a wide ranging set of potential causes for that, one of which might be foot strike. The snag is the evidence on foot strike is weak compared to other issues and may be completely irrelevant.
We have no indication of what that pain is, when it manifests and the range of other factors that contribute, so going straight to the least likely source isn't helpful.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.
Problem is, your observations on footstrike don't really contribute anything of any value to the originator, and potentially confuse the issue.
The OP said that after starting running he "ended up with some significant leg pain" and that he's a "little paranoid of re-injuring" himself.
Entirely accurate. There are a wide ranging set of potential causes for that, one of which might be foot strike. The snag is the evidence on foot strike is weak compared to other issues and may be completely irrelevant.
We have no indication of what that pain is, when it manifests and the range of other factors that contribute, so going straight to the least likely source isn't helpful.
That's why I began by asking how he got injured. The injury appears to be running related. From my own experience, I began having leg pain when I used to strike with my heal, so I threw that out there. The "least likely source"? I don't think so.0 -
Most likely is overuse, with much of the current research indicating that intentional changes to gait don't reduce injury rate, merely change the injury type.
I'd also observed that heel striking itself isn't so much an issue, but over extending the leading leg is. That increases vertical oscillation, increases inefficiency and can contribute to lumbar pain. One of the sources of lower leg pain is weakness in the hips and core.2 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »Most likely is overuse, with much of the current research indicating that intentional changes to gait don't reduce injury rate, merely change the injury type.
I'd also observed that heel striking itself isn't so much an issue, but over extending the leading leg is. That increases vertical oscillation, increases inefficiency and can contribute to lumbar pain. One of the sources of lower leg pain is weakness in the hips and core.
It's easy to get overused quickly when you're putting all that stress on your joints that striking with the heal causes. When I switched to striking with the outer, mid-foot, it took some getting used to. The bottom of my foot and calves got more sore, but I got relief in my ankles, knees and lower back.
I haven't seen over extending the lead leg to be an issue. Distance runners are rarely in the condition to maintain that level of stride. Only high level distance runners extend long, and it's not an issue.
I don't see how core strength plays into leg pain. It would affect your lower back.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »I haven't seen over extending the lead leg to be an issue. Distance runners are rarely in the condition to maintain that level of stride. Only high level distance runners extend long, and it's not an issue.
Distance runners don't stride like that because it's inefficient and poor form. Essentially heel strike isn't the issue, but it can be indicative of other sources of difficulty.I don't see how core strength plays into leg pain.
I'd noticed...
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I haven't seen over extending the lead leg to be an issue. Distance runners are rarely in the condition to maintain that level of stride. Only high level distance runners extend long, and it's not an issue.
Distance runners don't stride like that because it's inefficient and poor form. Essentially heel strike isn't the issue, but it can be indicative of other sources of difficulty.I don't see how core strength plays into leg pain.
I'd noticed...
Ten minutes into this video is the end of the race, and the longest lead leg stride you'll see from a distance runner. Anything more extended than that is just plain ridiculous. No one runs like that.
As far as core strength playing into leg pain, you offer nothing of substance to support it. I know that one could have sciatic nerve pain that radiates from the lower back, down the leg. That could be the result of an injury related to inadequate core strength. However, it is less likely to be the cause of leg pain related to running, than lets say the stress caused by repeatedly striking the ground with your heel. If the leg pain is in the glute and ham, it might be Piriformis Syndrome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3uXV2bJr2M 0 -
@mgalovic0's question is perfectly legitimate. The OP is holding back on running out of fear of getting injured again. @Okohme, if you have been cleared by your MD or PT for running, make sure you are wearing appropriate running shoes and that you are warming up before and after your running.
There is not pat answer to your question on how much you can run per week, as it depends on you, your needs, endurance, etc. Since you already run up to 4.5 miles twice a week, I would just add another day of running. Maybe start with a mile or two and see how you are doing. Again, be sure to warm up well before, and warm down afterward. The last thing you need is to re-injure yourself.
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@mgalovic0's question is perfectly legitimate.
I'd make the observation that as a new runner the originator isn't going to know how he got injured. I'd also observed that I'm not challenging the question, more the leap to nonsense about heel strike vs midfoot.1 -
First, guessing at what caused an injury without any knowledge of the injury and then prescribing a way to fix it that could cause even more injury is irresponsible. Changing your gait 'just because' is just plain wrong. You don't even know how the OP runs. What if they already land on the forefoot? And if they don't, telling them to change may very well lead to other injuries. I'd personally rather deal with a knee than a achillies injury.
Second, just because YOU had good results doesn't mean everyone will. In my case, I decided to run a half marathon after not running at all for 18 months. My first run was 2.5 miles and I increased quickly from there. My body was not ready for that and by the time I ran the half my left shin was screaming at me. I had to have help walking back to the hotel after the race. It was not fun at all. I lost my training for most of the summer after that.
BTW - I naturally land forefoot. It did nothing to prevent my overuse injury.
If you search you will find hundreds of conflicting articles and studies. There is no convincing evidence either way that one running style is better than the other. But there is plenty of evidence that changing one's style can cause injury.
If you want to change styles, do it with the help of a qualified coach. Don't just focus on your foot strike, change how you run to be more efficient. Don't do it based on some internet chat room.
This article pretty much sums up the confusion.
To the OP, this thread got off on a tangent and I apologize. Unfortunately there's always 'bro science' passed around that has to be addressed since it can be more harmful than helpful. My best advice is to ease back into running and listen to your body. If it says take a day off, do it.
Good luck.6 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »@mgalovic0's question is perfectly legitimate.
I'd make the observation that as a new runner the originator isn't going to know how he got injured. I'd also observed that I'm not challenging the question, more the leap to nonsense about heel strike vs midfoot.
Calling foot strike nonsense shows how much you know about running.First, guessing at what caused an injury without any knowledge of the injury and then prescribing a way to fix it that could cause even more injury is irresponsible. Changing your gait 'just because' is just plain wrong. You don't even know how the OP runs. What if they already land on the forefoot? And if they don't, telling them to change may very well lead to other injuries. I'd personally rather deal with a knee than a achillies injury.
Second, just because YOU had good results doesn't mean everyone will. In my case, I decided to run a half marathon after not running at all for 18 months. My first run was 2.5 miles and I increased quickly from there. My body was not ready for that and by the time I ran the half my left shin was screaming at me. I had to have help walking back to the hotel after the race. It was not fun at all. I lost my training for most of the summer after that.
BTW - I naturally land forefoot. It did nothing to prevent my overuse injury.
If you search you will find hundreds of conflicting articles and studies. There is no convincing evidence either way that one running style is better than the other. But there is plenty of evidence that changing one's style can cause injury.
If you want to change styles, do it with the help of a qualified coach. Don't just focus on your foot strike, change how you run to be more efficient. Don't do it based on some internet chat room.
This article pretty much sums up the confusion.
To the OP, this thread got off on a tangent and I apologize. Unfortunately there's always 'bro science' passed around that has to be addressed since it can be more harmful than helpful. My best advice is to ease back into running and listen to your body. If it says take a day off, do it.
Good luck.
Heal striking is just bad form. There is nothing to cushion the impact. There are people out there who somehow manage to do it for years, and wind up with worn away cartilage in their knees later on in life. So, it's good advice for any runner. It's easier to heal your achillies, which btw can take strains much stronger than those produced by distance running, than it is to restore lost cartilage.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »As far as core strength playing into leg pain, you offer nothing of substance to support it.
Core strength affects the stability of the pelvic cradle, so influences stability in terms of forward tilt and lateral balance. The former impacts on the loading distribution on contact, and fatigue levels. The latter affects how rotational loads are applied to the hips and knees in both the landing and propulsion stages of the gait cycle.
Another effect of course strength is the tension, and tension balance on the iliotibial band, which can affect anterior knee pain.
The originator talked about leg pain. He didn't talk about where that was. He also mentioned now doing strength training, having seen a physiotherapist. That would suggest that the diagnosis included an element of core strength.
Essentially in "leg pain" there are several different ranges of injury type, each with different causes. I'll acknowledge that excessive " heel strike" might be exhibited, but even that may have several causes, with different therapies indicated for each.
I'd acknowledge that I've only run a few marathons and ultras, so still have a lot to learn.2 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »As far as core strength playing into leg pain, you offer nothing of substance to support it.
Core strength affects the stability of the pelvic cradle, so influences stability in terms of forward tilt and lateral balance. The former impacts on the loading distribution on contact, and fatigue levels. The latter affects how rotational loads are applied to the hips and knees in both the landing and propulsion stages of the gait cycle.
Another effect of course strength is the tension, and tension balance on the iliotibial band, which can affect anterior knee pain.
The originator talked about leg pain. He didn't talk about where that was. He also mentioned now doing strength training, having seen a physiotherapist. That would suggest that the diagnosis included an element of core strength.
Essentially in "leg pain" there are several different ranges of injury type, each with different causes. I'll acknowledge that excessive " heel strike" might be exhibited, but even that may have several causes, with different therapies indicated for each.
I'd acknowledge that I've only run a few marathons and ultras, so still have a lot to learn.
Your core has something to do with just about every functional movement performed. That was a good illustration of how it could play into leg pain.
But, how does simply doing strength training, having seen a physiotherapist suggest a diagnosis including an element of core strength? Even if core strength was incorporated into the therapy, as it usually is, it doesn't mean that lack of core strength was the cause of the injury. It just means that functional movements practically always include your core.
There is no cause to the heal strike. It's just natural, at first, until you find out how stressful it is on your joints when done often. It, in and of itself, is the cause of many running related issues.
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Hi, I didn't know much about exercise but I do know that if you have had any health issues you are best to see any exercise physiology not personal trainer. An EP can *kitten* you accurately, work out why you had the issues with the knee and give you exact advice not generic advice. They are covered by most private health insurance if you have some0
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mgalovic01 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »As far as core strength playing into leg pain, you offer nothing of substance to support it.
Core strength affects the stability of the pelvic cradle, so influences stability in terms of forward tilt and lateral balance. The former impacts on the loading distribution on contact, and fatigue levels. The latter affects how rotational loads are applied to the hips and knees in both the landing and propulsion stages of the gait cycle.
Another effect of course strength is the tension, and tension balance on the iliotibial band, which can affect anterior knee pain.
The originator talked about leg pain. He didn't talk about where that was. He also mentioned now doing strength training, having seen a physiotherapist. That would suggest that the diagnosis included an element of core strength.
Essentially in "leg pain" there are several different ranges of injury type, each with different causes. I'll acknowledge that excessive " heel strike" might be exhibited, but even that may have several causes, with different therapies indicated for each.
I'd acknowledge that I've only run a few marathons and ultras, so still have a lot to learn.
Your core has something to do with just about every functional movement performed. That was a good illustration of how it could play into leg pain.
But, how does simply doing strength training, having seen a physiotherapist suggest a diagnosis including an element of core strength? Even if core strength was incorporated into the therapy, as it usually is, it doesn't mean that lack of core strength was the cause of the injury. It just means that functional movements practically always include your core.
There is no cause to the heal strike. It's just natural, at first, until you find out how stressful it is on your joints when done often. It, in and of itself, is the cause of many running related issues.
What exactly is your experience with running and/or training runners? Just curious. You sound as if you're trying to speak as an authority on the subject.2 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I wonder how you got injured. Striking the ground with your heal puts a lot of stress on your joints. Striking mid- foot to front foot will have your calves absorb some of that impact.
Who are you asking?
And please show me the evidence that this is the case (heel strikers that is). Plus, who here is talking about form? Very confused.....
I'm asking the OP. I speak from personal experience. If the OP is still doing something wrong, form-wise, that caused him to get injured, he'll just get injured again.
The PT I saw said that my hips and knees were really weak and that caused my injury. I have a condition where a number of ligaments are extra ligamenty. A number of my fingers bend in unsual ways and apparently so do some of my other joints. Anyway, I have to build extra strength to avoid injury. Not that I was adquately strengthened in the first place, I assume I was not as I began my fitness and weigh loss journey from being very sedentary.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »@mgalovic0's question is perfectly legitimate.
I'd make the observation that as a new runner the originator isn't going to know how he got injured. I'd also observed that I'm not challenging the question, more the leap to nonsense about heel strike vs midfoot.
Ahhhh.....gotcha.
Why do you think it's nonsense?
In fact, I'd say that we don't have enough information to assess whether it's nonsense or not.
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