And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Negative comments could come from something you've said/implied OR something another vegan they've encountered said/implied.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.2 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Negative comments could come from something you've said/implied OR something another vegan they've encountered said/implied.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
This. Sometimes I've asked people straight up "Why would you say that to me?" and it will turn out they are upset or hurt about something said to them by a vegan they previously interacted with. It usually turns about to be a pretty good conversation and I get a chance to show them that vegans have many different ways of approaching situations.
(This can also apply to weight loss/fitness "haters" -- sometimes people are just responding to someone else in their life who changed their diet or activity level)4 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...13 -
This was playing at the store and I started singing the Hillywood Supernatural parody of it. lol
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
A lot of marriages too.
I'll see myself out . . .3 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
Oh I totally agree!
I singled out vegans for the posts directly above but maybe I shouldn't have:).
ETA - Have vegan family & friends and I'm pescatarian so I felt I could answer it from experience:).0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying and responding on that basis.
I think that sometimes the people who are the most "hateful" about veganism are the people who are potentially the most interested. I know I spent a few months trying to convince myself that veganism wasn't necessary or that it would be impossible for me. I didn't express these things to vegans, but I certainly had all those thoughts. Sometimes people are trying to convince *themselves* of the things they're saying to us (and other times they do represent perfectly genuine and straightforward objections).
I love that. So insightful and my thoughts, exactly. I had always assumed, too, that I could "never be vegan," but I learned how to make it work for myself, and my husband has been incredibly supportive. I agree that it's important that we don't come off as exclusive of those who don't follow the same lifestyle. We can't talk about veganism with non-vegans in a way that implies any sort of fault on their part for not being vegan, and I apologize if that's how I came off!0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
A lot of marriages too.
I'll see myself out . . .
touche
0 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
Oh I totally agree!
I singled out vegans for the posts directly above but maybe I shouldn't have:).
ETA - Have vegan family & friends and I'm pescatarian so I felt I could answer it from experience:).
Wasn't insinuating you were singling vegans out. Just elaborating on your post. My apologies if I made you think I was 1 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
Oh I totally agree!
I singled out vegans for the posts directly above but maybe I shouldn't have:).
ETA - Have vegan family & friends and I'm pescatarian so I felt I could answer it from experience:).
Wasn't insinuating you were singling vegans out. Just elaborating on your post. My apologies if I made you think I was
Ah I see.
We are cool:)!0 -
leooftheyear wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »leooftheyear wrote: »my main source of negativity is actually from both of my parents, I rarely talk about gym or food with them as I'm living 700miles away. Their source of negativity is either telling me I'm not doing enough and need to lose weight faster, I'm doing too much or I'm not doing something right.
Don't get "hate" and parental concern mixed up. Parents seem to always "correct" their child no matter the age. My mom still says something about my dryer lint when she visits and I'm 50
well if its that then their parental concern only comes up when related to the gym, diet, etc and it's always negative (e.g. I ended up in tears on thanksgiving)
How does that come up with your parents? I definitely get the "stuff I can't talk about with my parents" thing -- I have a number of topics that I stonewall on, including money stuff, politics. Food/exercise is not one, but I'd just say (as I do with the others), I'd rather not discuss the topic or "I have a plan with my doctor/trainer/whoever" or whatever seemed good and change the subject. Not sure how they can comment on what you are doing without knowing it/you talking about it.
NOT criticizing, because I know parent stuff can be difficult, just asking.3 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?6 -
Yeah, there's that.0
-
People get hate for going on a diet? That's weird, can't say I've ever experienced hate from that.3
-
Aaron_K123 wrote: »People get hate for going on a diet? That's weird, can't say I've ever experienced hate from that.
Yeah, I don't really get it...I've never experienced "hate" from people because I eat well and ride a bike.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »People get hate for going on a diet? That's weird, can't say I've ever experienced hate from that.
Yeah, I don't really get it...I've never experienced "hate" from people because I eat well and ride a bike.
You ride a bike?
That doesn't count as exercise, I can't believe you think.... 3 -
I have definitely had some jealousy/hate along the way from people so I get it. I just think of it as hating on the progress rather than the diet and dedication to getting there. Lots of people don't like to see people succeed because they are generally miserable. That being said, I worked in IT where a lot of people fit the "miserable" moniker in my opinion.2
-
lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!2 -
And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
5 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...
Funny thing? I've quit smoking, don't do regular t.v., don't own a microwave, I'm eating at a calorie deficit and (with the exception of the last thing which is obvious because I've lost a lot of weight), hardly anyone knows these things about me. You're all privileged now.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...
Funny thing? I've quit smoking, don't do regular t.v., don't own a microwave, I'm eating at a calorie deficit and (with the exception of the last thing which is obvious because I've lost a lot of weight), hardly anyone knows these things about me. You're all privileged now.
But do you go commando?3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...
Funny thing? I've quit smoking, don't do regular t.v., don't own a microwave, I'm eating at a calorie deficit and (with the exception of the last thing which is obvious because I've lost a lot of weight), hardly anyone knows these things about me. You're all privileged now.
But do you go commando?
No. Visible panty lines are a virtue. 6 -
From my experience, there are people who have rightfully lost weight with great work and food habits, but they also tend to want to "get back" at all the people who told them they couldn't do it.
Take the high road. Just by doing, one has already "got back" at them. They don't need to be reminded nor chastized about them having the same opportunity. If they really want it, they'll do the same.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...
I thought it was around 2014. It happened during my time here, but I didn't start reading the forums my first year, and really didn't become active for another year after that.0 -
cmriverside wrote: »Your mom is who she is. Why do you expect her to be other wise?
Forgive her and move on. [snip]
Ya, my relationship with my dad improved considerably when I accepted him as how he was, rather than how I wanted him to be.
I have a friend who suffers greatly because he keeps wanting his father to act differently from how he's been for 40 plus years.
This is an easy concept to grasp intellectually but can be quite the challenge to implement.
3 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I love this. I've experienced the exact situation before, the first time I started to lose weight, and now at least once per week for being vegan. I interpret that very much the same way - I've always wondered if they're giving me grief simply because I'm bettering myself, the environment, and the lives of animals, and they're not. Or maybe it's because my vegan diet requires a high degree of self-discipline - something maybe they're lacking themselves? "A little bacon every now and then won't kill you," they say... I usually follow with some sort of snarky comment, such as "I really appreciate your unsolicited advice, thanks!"
Maybe it's because they're picking up on your attitude that they aren't "bettering themselves" because they aren't vegan. I've been vegan for ten years and I will say it's just one portion of how I choose to interact with other individuals. There are many non-vegans who are doing more for themselves and the world than I will ever do. Just because someone isn't vegan it doesn't mean that they aren't also doing valuable things for themselves or the world.
Do I wish animal exploitation would end? Absolutely. But it's just one piece of the work that needs to be done for a better world and people who aren't vegan may be doing other things that are incredibly valuable and important. They may also be exercising self-discipline in areas of their lives that are important to them, as important to them as my veganism is to me.
Are they really "haters"? Or are they people who have accurately picked up what you're thinking and assuming about them and are reacting to that?
Are all of them haters? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I feel it unfair that I'm assumed to be thinking any negative thoughts or assumptions about them. The ones who are haters, who do give me attitude (as a vegan, I'm sure you've experienced them, too), I will absolutely stand up for myself. I do my best not to rub my diet choices in anyone else's faces, even going so far as to not use the term "vegan" (instead, I'll just respectfully say, "Sorry, I don't eat meat/dairy/eggs/whatever they're offering me that's non-vegan). Many, many meat eaters offer me the same respect, but many also do not. Many of them say, "You're taking away from animals' food by eating plants, so how is being a vegan helping animals?" etc. And, I assure you, they're not just doing it to joke around. They're doing it to belittle my morals, views, and choices. Those, I think you would agree, are ones that are considered "haters".
I do my best to offer absolutely ZERO judgment of people who eat meat, because, like you say, they absolutely can be doing great things to change the world. And I agree, diet is only one very small part of the larger work to be done. I certainly don't think that being vegan is the only thing that you can do to better yourself, and I'm adamant that a vegan diet is just plain unhealthy for some people.
Not every omnivore is a hater, and not every vegan is pushy for all omnivores to be vegan, either. I will always hold space for those who don't choose to live their lives exactly like I do. However, I will also not stand aside and let my choices be belittled just because they're different from someone else's, and that someone else chooses to bully me for it. The point of my comment was, I have always wondered if those who choose to bully me for being vegan are doing it for a reason similar to the content of the article - because, by being vegan, I'm possessing some sort of quality that they are offended by, perhaps because they don't also possess it? Please, let's not get away from the meaning behind my original post, just because I admitted that I am human and will stand up for myself and get snarky if I have to.
I misunderstood your post then -- I read that as you saying that the people who were making comments to you were not, in your opinion, "bettering themselves" or that they lacked self-control. If that isn't what you meant, then we don't have a disagreement.
I've met very few people that had issues with veganism and wanted to belittle vegans or the reasons behind it. When people do, I consider that they may have a conflict that I may not fully understand and I'd rather provide them with something positive to consider rather than "stand up for myself." Standing up for myself may feel good in the short term, but if they truly have a misconception or conflict about veganism, I personally consider it better for animals to try to address that. I would never want to be the reason that someone thought vegans were unpleasant or snarky -- there are few of us, we're often misunderstood, so I try to be kind. I don't blame people for having misconceptions about veganism or even defensiveness about it (after all, there are prominent voices for veganism who can be offensive or off-putting to many people). I know not every vegan has to share that approach, but it's the one that I choose.
When I met my first vegan, I didn't know much about it. I don't think I was offensive or a "hater," but I did have a lot of questions and I didn't really see the point at first. Who knows how I came across to vegans at that point? I'm glad someone (several someones, actually) took the time to help me.
It certainly sounds like a misunderstanding, because I am in agreement with everything you said!
I like how you phrased it as a "consideration" because that's exactly how I see it. I can understand how it's coming off as me being judgmental of them, but truly, I'm just wondering if that's where their negative comments are coming from.
Some Vegans are pretty passionate at first and then settle down after a few years.
I think that applies to a lot of people and a lot of different diets...
People who change/add religions too.
Diet isn't a religion?
& when people quit smoking. Zealots everywhere.
And people who have gotten rid of their television sets. I get it, you're so much happier now and you have time for your family and your hobbies and etc etc. But sometimes I just like to veg out!
Don't forget scrapping the microwave AKA box of death! That was a fun thread.And people who like to go commando. We get it, your junk is only 1 layer away. It's super freeing. Blah blah.
I still gotta ask, at some point we all get swamp *kitten*.... Need I say more?
Reduces forum related panty twist/bunch
"Box of death" is old school...I think that thread was from 2012 or something...unless someone started another one.
I reheat all kinds of healthy deliciousness in my microwave...I'm home sick today and just reheated a nice homemade chicken, orzo, and lemon soup I made last night...the microwave is awesomeness...
I thought it was around 2014. It happened during my time here, but I didn't start reading the forums my first year, and really didn't become active for another year after that.
I think it was 2012 with a major necro revival in 2014? And uh I might have bumped it once. On a slow day.1
This discussion has been closed.
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