C25K / running advice
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »bcalvanese wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I did not see that line, and I apologize.
But let me add this.
I came of age in the 80's, when "feel the burn" and the kind of jargon about heart rate and being all intense about exercise was the rage.
You know what all of that did for me? Put me off exercise for years.
I know you feel that training for heart rate simplifies things for you, but you know what made it easy for me?
The advice: "If you can't carry on a conversation or sing a song, you're running too fast."
That was simple. I didn't have to remember any formulas, or zones or anything. I just had to try to sing.
I know this is moving away from the idea of calorie burns, but calorie burns and exercise being "effective" aren't really something I worry overmuch about. I worry about not injuring myself. When I first started running, my mindset was that I'd rather run properly so I could keep running consistently and not be sidelined by injury by trying to do too much, too soon in the name of training to some metric or another.
I respect your opinions and I have read some about the breathing thing in the different zones too. not sure if it is as accurate as knowing heart rate, but it certainly is a way to ballpark ones training load. The thing with breathing (at least for me) is, as my fitness level increased, I was able to breath easier in higher heart rate zones. My breathing in zone 5 now feels like it used to feel in zone 4, and my breathing in zone 4 feels like it used to feel in zone 3. In zone 3 now, I don't even feel like I am getting a workout.
I like to stay in zone 4 & 5 now, and I prefer to push it to the point that I can only speak a few words at a time. That used to be zone 3 for me. now it's zone 4. I could only stay in zone 5 for about a minute before, and my last intense workout, I stayed in zone 5 for over an hour.
I guess what I'm trying to say is breathing is a factor that seems to change with fitness level, and maybe other factors, so to me, heart rate seems to be a more accurate approach then breathing, but I guess once you know your own body it would be good to use.
I use a GPS watch synced to a chest strap heart rate monitor, so I can simply glance at my wrist and see my heart rate at that point in time. Then I simply adjust my intensity to keep my heart rate where I want it. It also records and calculates everything for me, so I don't have to be bothered with all that stuff, and can focus on the workout.
I have a saying...
"if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right"
I know that may sound a little hard core to some people, but it helps keep me motivated...:)
We disagree on your saying
Firstly, sweating is not a metric of effort. It just means that you're hot. I'm personally not a person who is prone to sweating, even from very hot weather. I don't really sweat from exercise. That doesn't mean I'm not working hard enough. I've obviously had results from my training efforts, so something I'm doing is working.
As for huffing and puffing, that goes back to the mentality from the 80's that turned me off exercise. I've become pretty fit building that fitness slowly and gradually without overly pushing myself by taking a gentler approach with things. This doesn't mean I don't challenge myself, but there's a line between a gentle challenge where you still have enough in the tank to go out the next day and "huffing and puffing" to the point where it's more uncomfortable than exhilarating.
Maybe our differences in this discussion are just semantic. I see exercise as a pleasurable challenge of one's abilities. I think you see it as more of a test of grit or something and like the idea of all-out effort. Even on my hard runs, I'm never huffing and puffing. Mildly breathless? Yup.
At any rate, since this discussion started out about the C25K program, the idea that "if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right" is probably wrong-headed for a beginner. New runners should most definitely be running as slow as possible and not huffing and puffing at all.
Oh, the injuries I suffered from pushing too hard, too fast.2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »bcalvanese wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I did not see that line, and I apologize.
But let me add this.
I came of age in the 80's, when "feel the burn" and the kind of jargon about heart rate and being all intense about exercise was the rage.
You know what all of that did for me? Put me off exercise for years.
I know you feel that training for heart rate simplifies things for you, but you know what made it easy for me?
The advice: "If you can't carry on a conversation or sing a song, you're running too fast."
That was simple. I didn't have to remember any formulas, or zones or anything. I just had to try to sing.
I know this is moving away from the idea of calorie burns, but calorie burns and exercise being "effective" aren't really something I worry overmuch about. I worry about not injuring myself. When I first started running, my mindset was that I'd rather run properly so I could keep running consistently and not be sidelined by injury by trying to do too much, too soon in the name of training to some metric or another.
I respect your opinions and I have read some about the breathing thing in the different zones too. not sure if it is as accurate as knowing heart rate, but it certainly is a way to ballpark ones training load. The thing with breathing (at least for me) is, as my fitness level increased, I was able to breath easier in higher heart rate zones. My breathing in zone 5 now feels like it used to feel in zone 4, and my breathing in zone 4 feels like it used to feel in zone 3. In zone 3 now, I don't even feel like I am getting a workout.
I like to stay in zone 4 & 5 now, and I prefer to push it to the point that I can only speak a few words at a time. That used to be zone 3 for me. now it's zone 4. I could only stay in zone 5 for about a minute before, and my last intense workout, I stayed in zone 5 for over an hour.
I guess what I'm trying to say is breathing is a factor that seems to change with fitness level, and maybe other factors, so to me, heart rate seems to be a more accurate approach then breathing, but I guess once you know your own body it would be good to use.
I use a GPS watch synced to a chest strap heart rate monitor, so I can simply glance at my wrist and see my heart rate at that point in time. Then I simply adjust my intensity to keep my heart rate where I want it. It also records and calculates everything for me, so I don't have to be bothered with all that stuff, and can focus on the workout.
I have a saying...
"if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right"
I know that may sound a little hard core to some people, but it helps keep me motivated...:)
We disagree on your saying
Firstly, sweating is not a metric of effort. It just means that you're hot. I'm personally not a person who is prone to sweating, even from very hot weather. I don't really sweat from exercise. That doesn't mean I'm not working hard enough. I've obviously had results from my training efforts, so something I'm doing is working.
As for huffing and puffing, that goes back to the mentality from the 80's that turned me off exercise. I've become pretty fit building that fitness slowly and gradually without overly pushing myself by taking a gentler approach with things. This doesn't mean I don't challenge myself, but there's a line between a gentle challenge where you still have enough in the tank to go out the next day and "huffing and puffing" to the point where it's more uncomfortable than exhilarating.
Maybe our differences in this discussion are just semantic. I see exercise as a pleasurable challenge of one's abilities. I think you see it as more of a test of grit or something and like the idea of all-out effort. Even on my hard runs, I'm never huffing and puffing. Mildly breathless? Yup.
At any rate, since this discussion started out about the C25K program, the idea that "if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right" is probably wrong-headed for a beginner. New runners should most definitely be running as slow as possible and not huffing and puffing at all.
Oh, the injuries I suffered from pushing too hard, too fast.
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »bcalvanese wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I did not see that line, and I apologize.
But let me add this.
I came of age in the 80's, when "feel the burn" and the kind of jargon about heart rate and being all intense about exercise was the rage.
You know what all of that did for me? Put me off exercise for years.
I know you feel that training for heart rate simplifies things for you, but you know what made it easy for me?
The advice: "If you can't carry on a conversation or sing a song, you're running too fast."
That was simple. I didn't have to remember any formulas, or zones or anything. I just had to try to sing.
I know this is moving away from the idea of calorie burns, but calorie burns and exercise being "effective" aren't really something I worry overmuch about. I worry about not injuring myself. When I first started running, my mindset was that I'd rather run properly so I could keep running consistently and not be sidelined by injury by trying to do too much, too soon in the name of training to some metric or another.
I respect your opinions and I have read some about the breathing thing in the different zones too. not sure if it is as accurate as knowing heart rate, but it certainly is a way to ballpark ones training load. The thing with breathing (at least for me) is, as my fitness level increased, I was able to breath easier in higher heart rate zones. My breathing in zone 5 now feels like it used to feel in zone 4, and my breathing in zone 4 feels like it used to feel in zone 3. In zone 3 now, I don't even feel like I am getting a workout.
I like to stay in zone 4 & 5 now, and I prefer to push it to the point that I can only speak a few words at a time. That used to be zone 3 for me. now it's zone 4. I could only stay in zone 5 for about a minute before, and my last intense workout, I stayed in zone 5 for over an hour.
I guess what I'm trying to say is breathing is a factor that seems to change with fitness level, and maybe other factors, so to me, heart rate seems to be a more accurate approach then breathing, but I guess once you know your own body it would be good to use.
I use a GPS watch synced to a chest strap heart rate monitor, so I can simply glance at my wrist and see my heart rate at that point in time. Then I simply adjust my intensity to keep my heart rate where I want it. It also records and calculates everything for me, so I don't have to be bothered with all that stuff, and can focus on the workout.
I have a saying...
"if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right"
I know that may sound a little hard core to some people, but it helps keep me motivated...:)
We disagree on your saying
Firstly, sweating is not a metric of effort. It just means that you're hot. I'm personally not a person who is prone to sweating, even from very hot weather. I don't really sweat from exercise. That doesn't mean I'm not working hard enough. I've obviously had results from my training efforts, so something I'm doing is working.
As for huffing and puffing, that goes back to the mentality from the 80's that turned me off exercise. I've become pretty fit building that fitness slowly and gradually without overly pushing myself by taking a gentler approach with things. This doesn't mean I don't challenge myself, but there's a line between a gentle challenge where you still have enough in the tank to go out the next day and "huffing and puffing" to the point where it's more uncomfortable than exhilarating.
Maybe our differences in this discussion are just semantic. I see exercise as a pleasurable challenge of one's abilities. I think you see it as more of a test of grit or something and like the idea of all-out effort. Even on my hard runs, I'm never huffing and puffing. Mildly breathless? Yup.
At any rate, since this discussion started out about the C25K program, the idea that "if you ain't huffing and puffing and sweating, you ain't doing it right" is probably wrong-headed for a beginner. New runners should most definitely be running as slow as possible and not huffing and puffing at all.
Oh, the injuries I suffered from pushing too hard, too fast.
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.
I had similar earlier in the year. I was supposed to be doing a Marathon in March and managed to injure my right calf in JAnuary after racking up my mileage a bit too fast. I'd been down at about 20 miles pw in November and December, then went straight to a 40 mile week first week in January. By three weeks in I had a calf tear that took me out for a month. That meant I had to downgrade my marathon to the half at the same event. Disappointing as I was supposed to do three marathons this year and I only got two in.
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.
I had similar earlier in the year. I was supposed to be doing a Marathon in March and managed to injure my right calf in JAnuary after racking up my mileage a bit too fast. I'd been down at about 20 miles pw in November and December, then went straight to a 40 mile week first week in January. By three weeks in I had a calf tear that took me out for a month. That meant I had to downgrade my marathon to the half at the same event. Disappointing as I was supposed to do three marathons this year and I only got two in.
That sucks. I'm no where near that point. Most I've every done was a 10K, but I was so proud to finish it. I need to get back at it. I always feel better when I run regularly (except when injured).
Two marathons in on year? So amazing.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.
I had similar earlier in the year. I was supposed to be doing a Marathon in March and managed to injure my right calf in JAnuary after racking up my mileage a bit too fast. I'd been down at about 20 miles pw in November and December, then went straight to a 40 mile week first week in January. By three weeks in I had a calf tear that took me out for a month. That meant I had to downgrade my marathon to the half at the same event. Disappointing as I was supposed to do three marathons this year and I only got two in.
That sucks. I'm no where near that point. Most I've every done was a 10K, but I was so proud to finish it. I need to get back at it. I always feel better when I run regularly (except when injured).
Two marathons in on year? So amazing.
Todays race had a bunch of people who'll do one or more a month.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.
I had similar earlier in the year. I was supposed to be doing a Marathon in March and managed to injure my right calf in JAnuary after racking up my mileage a bit too fast. I'd been down at about 20 miles pw in November and December, then went straight to a 40 mile week first week in January. By three weeks in I had a calf tear that took me out for a month. That meant I had to downgrade my marathon to the half at the same event. Disappointing as I was supposed to do three marathons this year and I only got two in.
That sucks. I'm no where near that point. Most I've every done was a 10K, but I was so proud to finish it. I need to get back at it. I always feel better when I run regularly (except when injured).
Two marathons in on year? So amazing.
Todays race had a bunch of people who'll do one or more a month.
That's just mind boggling to me. I would love to feel comfortable with a 10K, and would be amazed to make it through half. That would feel pretty accomplished to me.2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
I admit, my health issues are likely coloring my take on this issue. I can't go hard with psoriatic and osteo-arthritis. It would sideline me for a long time if not do outright damage.
I don't have the same health issues, but have suffered from both bilateral plantar fasciitis and posteromedial shin splints from pushing too hard, too fast. Both side lined me for extended periods of time. Clearly I'm a slow learner, because I still tend to push too hard. I have to accept that I'm getting older. Although those happened in my late 20s, and early 30s.
I had similar earlier in the year. I was supposed to be doing a Marathon in March and managed to injure my right calf in JAnuary after racking up my mileage a bit too fast. I'd been down at about 20 miles pw in November and December, then went straight to a 40 mile week first week in January. By three weeks in I had a calf tear that took me out for a month. That meant I had to downgrade my marathon to the half at the same event. Disappointing as I was supposed to do three marathons this year and I only got two in.
That sucks. I'm no where near that point. Most I've every done was a 10K, but I was so proud to finish it. I need to get back at it. I always feel better when I run regularly (except when injured).
Two marathons in on year? So amazing.
Todays race had a bunch of people who'll do one or more a month.
That's just mind boggling to me. I would love to feel comfortable with a 10K, and would be amazed to make it through half. That would feel pretty accomplished to me.
It just takes training, with most of that being fairly moderate intensity. Generally aim for 80% training volume being moderate with 20% being speed work. The core of endurance training is the Long Steady Run.
I'll aim for four sessions per week, back to back LSRs Sat and Sun with a speed session on Tuesday and a recovery on Wednesday.
Today was my last race of the season, so now a bit of cross training this week before starting my first marathon cycle next weekend.2 -
Actually, a lot of runners do the opposite in terms of HR training: they use it to keep their HR as low as possible during their runs. Supposedly this helps them become much more efficient as runners. See the Maffetone Method.
As to TMs, I know a couple of people who train almost exclusively on the TM for marathons. One does 4-6 marathons a year, BQing at every one. Another runs about 10 marathons as well as numerous HMs a year. The first lives in Canada, the other in Miami. Both do a lot of cross training as well as running 50-70+ miles a week. I've also heard of people in the Navy who live on board ships who train for marathons and ultras on TMs. I think it's a good idea to do at least some of your runs outside, because it is different, but doing a lot of training on the TM in summer or winter is not going to prevent you from succeeding at long races.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I also am hoping someone knowledgeable like you will tackle the treadmill assertions being made.
There is nothing inherently wrong the treadmills, the comment about not moving yhourself forward is received wisdom that has some foundation, but that's rarely applied appropriately. The deck rolling, meaning that one is pushing forward, as if one stood still one would push backwards, does lead to a difference in gait cf outside. That leads to a muscular imbalance. that can lead to muscular endurance issues. Essentially recruitment of the posterior chain is slightly different.
There is anther bit of received wisdom that doesn't help, the 1% elevation mimics the real world. Whilst that is correct most people aren't running 7 minute miles, where it becomes meaningful. The best way to compensate for the motion is to vary elevation, and ideally run on a treadmill that allows negative gradient, so mimicing downhills as well as uphills.
The biggest issue with a treadmill is the RSI aspect. The monotonous gait can lead to narrowly focused overuse injury as the gait is very consistent. That consistency can be a good thing, but a bit of variety is a good thing.
My personal issue with treadmills is the tedium. I'm a trail runner, and I find treadmills mind-numbingly boring. That means I'm less inclined to use them. But I will go out in vile weather instead.
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bcalvanese wrote: »bcalvanese wrote: »As far as I've found in my (pitiful) running career. long runs (whether they are 20mins straight or 20 miles) always involve a slower pace than the intervals. The long run is all relative depending upon your current ability. I'd definitely agree that you should slow down and try to hit the time goal, mainly because part of those is learning how to be comfortable while running (which is inherently an uncomfortable activity for most of us).
Have you signed up for a race yet? If not, I think you should. Just having a goal to shoot for always made training motivation easier for me. Find a local charity 5k for right around the time you finish the program. Then work to the 10k, then your half. Miles always get easier
I competed in a 5k on Saturday and did HORRIBLE (my treadmill incline doesn't work and it has been a long time since I ran outside) but I am in training to participate in a half marathon next fall. I did it 2 years ago and I liked it but I didn't train properly so I wasn't last but it took me a very long time to finish and last year I didn't do much for running as I was trying to figure out what was up with my calves/shins
Are you using a treadmill to train for a half marathon?
I did/do. Do you find something inherently wrong with that?
I wouldn't say wrong, but I do think that training for running for a marathon would have better results running on the ground than a treadmill. On a treadmill, you're not actually pushing yourself forward as you would be running on the ground, and every step is the same on a treadmill where every step on the ground could be slightly different.
my sister runs 3 miles on her treadmill, but can't run 1 mile on the ground.
Certainly nothing wrong with treadmills for cardio, but I think if training for something you would want to train as close to the real thing as possible.
No, not necessarily. It's personal preference. I prefer and get better results utilizing a treadmill as my main tool in training, both for distance and speed. I have much more control over my pace and split times on a treadmill vs. running outside. I like to get in an outdoor run per week (weather permitting), but still prefer that control the treadmill gives.
Your sister's situation where she has a 3-1 ratio treadmill vs outside is the first time I've ever heard of such a situation.
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I stand corrected. Body mass does matter.
It's weight, heart rate, age, and gender.
Sorry for being such an idiot.0
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