Issue with machines (for newbies)
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JulieSHelms
Posts: 821 Member
I thought I would post something about this because I finally had an epiphany--and no one adequately explained this to me in the beginning, leading to confusion for me. So I post this, one newbie to another.
I started strength training for the first time in my life about 5 months ago. (I'm 50). It took me about 5 minutes into the process to stumble over so much controversy and vitriol about using machines, vs. free weights. (Some here on MFP, but more violently on YouTube etc).
Having ZERO experience with strength training, the machines were the obvious answer for me--there's a little diagram on each machine to show you how to do it. I also have a history of back surgeries, and it felt like the extra support of the machine was a safer way to go--my back never felt stressed or unstable. I really didn't get what the big fuss against the machines was because I could literally see new muscle building on me and in places it had never been before. And I was consistently upping the weight on the machine, showing improvement.
Then I had a problem after about 3 months--this burning sensation in my bicep. It would be there by the end of doing 3 sets and last for days. Then it was there after just one rep--definitely getting worse. I talked to people here on MFP who suggested getting off the machine--that the fixed path wasn't right for me anatomically, and switch to free weights for the bicep.
So that started my journey with a trainer to show me how to use free weights. Each week he has taken me through a different group of muscles and generally given me 3 exercises to do with each one. Today was my last session and it all got put together in a big plan! (Very excited about that!)
But it was through this process that I realized the problem with machines. As an example, I had been using a chest press machine and doing bench presses on the Smith machine. I had worked it up over the months to about 45 lbs. But then this week the trainer had me do chest presses lying on a bench and also at an incline, with dumbbells. I was shocked that I could only do it with a 5 lb dumbbell in each hand--10 lbs compare to 45 lbs?? What the heck? How could I possibly be that weak?
So I FINALLY got the explanation that made sense. The machines isolate the major muscle and build that. The free weights work on the whole group of muscles including stabilizer muscles not used with the machines (Ok, I did know that--but why does that matter?) And here was the clincher I hadn't gotten yet---you're really only as strong as the weakest muscle in that group. (Ohhh.) So in a real-life practical situation--I'm only good for the 10 lbs, not the 45--since real life never isolates the main muscle.
My trainer isn't opposed to the machines, he thinks both have value. But he wants me doing free weights in all the groups, and do them first before switching to machines in each session. That way I can work on building up those stabilizer muscles before I get fatigued.
You experienced lifters/trainers out there--feel free to correct me if I got something wrong. But I just felt I had to share since no one ever got this through to me earlier. And when I've talked to other friends I go to the gym with--they had no idea what the problem was either. Experienced people need to explain it better to us newbies--instead of just saying 'they don't work', which made no sense 'cause I could see huge improvements--explain the problem!
I started strength training for the first time in my life about 5 months ago. (I'm 50). It took me about 5 minutes into the process to stumble over so much controversy and vitriol about using machines, vs. free weights. (Some here on MFP, but more violently on YouTube etc).
Having ZERO experience with strength training, the machines were the obvious answer for me--there's a little diagram on each machine to show you how to do it. I also have a history of back surgeries, and it felt like the extra support of the machine was a safer way to go--my back never felt stressed or unstable. I really didn't get what the big fuss against the machines was because I could literally see new muscle building on me and in places it had never been before. And I was consistently upping the weight on the machine, showing improvement.
Then I had a problem after about 3 months--this burning sensation in my bicep. It would be there by the end of doing 3 sets and last for days. Then it was there after just one rep--definitely getting worse. I talked to people here on MFP who suggested getting off the machine--that the fixed path wasn't right for me anatomically, and switch to free weights for the bicep.
So that started my journey with a trainer to show me how to use free weights. Each week he has taken me through a different group of muscles and generally given me 3 exercises to do with each one. Today was my last session and it all got put together in a big plan! (Very excited about that!)
But it was through this process that I realized the problem with machines. As an example, I had been using a chest press machine and doing bench presses on the Smith machine. I had worked it up over the months to about 45 lbs. But then this week the trainer had me do chest presses lying on a bench and also at an incline, with dumbbells. I was shocked that I could only do it with a 5 lb dumbbell in each hand--10 lbs compare to 45 lbs?? What the heck? How could I possibly be that weak?
So I FINALLY got the explanation that made sense. The machines isolate the major muscle and build that. The free weights work on the whole group of muscles including stabilizer muscles not used with the machines (Ok, I did know that--but why does that matter?) And here was the clincher I hadn't gotten yet---you're really only as strong as the weakest muscle in that group. (Ohhh.) So in a real-life practical situation--I'm only good for the 10 lbs, not the 45--since real life never isolates the main muscle.
My trainer isn't opposed to the machines, he thinks both have value. But he wants me doing free weights in all the groups, and do them first before switching to machines in each session. That way I can work on building up those stabilizer muscles before I get fatigued.
You experienced lifters/trainers out there--feel free to correct me if I got something wrong. But I just felt I had to share since no one ever got this through to me earlier. And when I've talked to other friends I go to the gym with--they had no idea what the problem was either. Experienced people need to explain it better to us newbies--instead of just saying 'they don't work', which made no sense 'cause I could see huge improvements--explain the problem!
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Replies
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The use of stabilizers and having to control up and down- no fixed path- and no cable pull to either help- or pull the weight back for you is a huge reason we advocate for free weights.
Yes- that is a correct analysis of the situation.
This gets said here frequently I'm not sure why you in 5 months (especially if you were here) didn't here that- no harm no foul- just odd that you didn't catch that.
Glad it's working out for you and you're making progress.1 -
This gets said here frequently I'm not sure why you in 5 months (especially if you were here) didn't here that- no harm no foul- just odd that you didn't catch that.
I got the part about the stabilizers from people here, but it was why that was important that was never communicated (or maybe just never received!) and the practical application/problem of it.
IOW--it seems that strength built on a machine doesn't necessarily translate to real (practical) strength.
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I think the main issue is that you just need to adapt to the skill of balancing the load (which isn't an issue with a smith machine).
I wouldn't look at it as though you've got specific muscles that are underdeveloped in any significant manner -- you are learning a new skill and you are getting new proprioceptive feedback that you weren't before.
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I think its pretty great that you figured it out on your own. To be fair, most of the time on MFP I see free-weight advocates give their reasons. Usually, a short and sweet "because it works your stabilizer muscles". But whether that communicates the meaning and consequence for newbies is up in the air. I don't know what would be better.
I've also seen the people you mention that just say "they don't work", but I wouldn't call them 'experienced'. It's really sad and not uncommon to see newbies posting, worried and ready to give up their strength training because someone told them "machines are useless". I think the problem is that people get dogmatic about everything, training methods just as much as diets (religion, politics...).4 -
JulieSHelms wrote: »you're really only as strong as the weakest muscle in that group.
Such a great way to say it!1 -
There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.7
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There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior3 -
There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior
Can you elaborate? If you work on the stabilizer muscles to some degree with free weights, can you then increase overall gains with machines?0 -
Hi @JulieSHelms I remember your post about the sore arms and machines well.
As I remember ( and my memory isn't always accurate) it was centred more on the injury, the machines taking your movements out of a natural path maybe being the cause. You also had a trainer lined up and reported being really happy with the instruction you were getting.
So glad this has worked out for you.
I would have to look it up to see what my replies were to you in it (I maybe did not go into specifics enough) but I have until recently, so I probably mentioned it, been running a programme doing all lifts split between hand weights and machines. Hand for small muscle recruitment, machines for strength gains.
When I was hit with the quandary of what to do when I couldn't use a 45lbs bar (too week, old, and small) the knowledge that I had from this forum, without even having to ask the question, led me to the above path.
When I did eventually get a bar that suited the weights I could lift I was over the moon.
For the transfer over I needed to do a biggish de load from the weight I was moving on the machines, again I knew this from machine vs free weight threads on here, and retrain my form/balance moving from hand weights to barbell. Now, more than a month later, I am up to speed and progressing at a pace that works for me.
Your OP is useful because it does gather a good deal of the information to be found on the forum into one place.
Obviously I have never had problems using machines.
Cheers, h.2 -
Hey @middlehaitch! You were the one who encouraged me not to be so petrified walking into the free weight section where I had never ventured before. I am much more confident now. And, get this, the guys in there have been helpful and always courteous to me. Don't know what I was expecting--like they were going to roar at me for invading their territory. <sigh> My mind can be very imaginative sometimes.middlehaitch wrote: »
I would have to look it up to see what my replies were to you in it (I maybe did not go into specifics enough) but I have until recently, so I probably mentioned it, been running a programme doing all lifts split between hand weights and machines. Hand for small muscle recruitment, machines for strength gains.
Okay! That makes sense and feels like all this information is coming together for me now. Maybe you did say something about it earlier and it just didn't register. That's probably why the trainer wants me to keep doing both.When I was hit with the quandary of what to do when I couldn't use a 45lbs bar (too week, old, and small) the knowledge that I had from this forum, without even having to ask the question, led me to the above path.
I get the feeling you are saying the bar, all by itself, weighs 45 lbs. Oh my, I have a long way to go.... Well, you know one of the things I cheer myself up with when it feels like I am WAY behind everyone else---I can only get better from here! Look how much I have to work toward.
BTW, I think you were also the lady that told me I should be eating a bucket load of protein (like 140g maybe?). I followed that up with some research...and like everything else in the world, opinions are all OVER the place on this--some saying women shouldn't eat more than 50g because it becomes toxic to the liver, up to more like what you were saying. So that's on hold for me till I'm less overwhelmed with everything else.
Thanks so much to you and the others on here for your honest and helpful input!
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There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior
SideSteel:
I have a bowflex extreme. If I change the angle of the cables would that work the muscles in the groups differently?0 -
Certain machines are very helpful.JulieSHelms wrote: »There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior
Can you elaborate? If you work on the stabilizer muscles to some degree with free weights, can you then increase overall gains with machines?
Lying leg curl machine
Standing leg curl machine
Seated cable row
Cable pulldowns
Assisted pullup machine
Seated leg press (I prefer linear)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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To an extent. The issue I have with the Bowflex Extreme is that it only works on progressive resistance (concentric contraction). In other words, there's no eccentric contraction and theory is that that is when micro tears in muscle happen.sabulaboys4 wrote: »There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior
SideSteel:
I have a bowflex extreme. If I change the angle of the cables would that work the muscles in the groups differently?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
To an extent. The issue I have with the Bowflex Extreme is that it only works on progressive resistance (concentric contraction). In other words, there's no eccentric contraction and theory is that that is when micro tears in muscle happen.sabulaboys4 wrote: »There are different tools for different purposes. In an ideal world, free weights are usually superior to machines. However, machines can be perfectly well suited as the primary source of resistance training for many individuals. The "vitriol" against machines is as much religion as it is science.
I agree and I'd even argue that in some contexts machines can even be superior
SideSteel:
I have a bowflex extreme. If I change the angle of the cables would that work the muscles in the groups differently?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I appreciate your reply ninerbuff. I know very little about weight training. I do know I will probably not ever do free weights with my sons. so I guess I probably asked a stupid question about stabilizer muscles that I will more than likely never have a need for.
I bought this bowflex thing to try to keep me active in the winter months.
I have noticed my oldest son is getting close to me in size and thought I better work a little harder with this thing0 -
Don't get me wrong. Progressive resistance is better than none at all. So you're still going to work the muscles. And because the Bowflex cables aren't on a plane, it will take stability muscles to steady yourself in any of the exercises. That's a good thing.sabulaboys4 wrote: »I appreciate your reply ninerbuff. I know very little about weight training. I do know I will probably not ever do free weights with my sons. so I guess I probably asked a stupid question about stabilizer muscles that I will more than likely never have a need for.
I bought this bowflex thing to try to keep me active in the winter months.
I have noticed my oldest son is getting close to me in size and thought I better work a little harder with this thing
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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JulieSHelms wrote: »Oh my, I have a long way to go....
when i started to lift i knew nothing. NOTHING. so just stopping by to write down a shout-out.
keep going. it's so worth it.
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I love your OP @JulieSHelms
And your attitude
And I think I remember your other thread too
Hope you continue to enjoy it and progress and one day you'll be lifting that (45lb) bar and more
Machines are fine ...free weights are great ..it doesn't have to be either or2 -
@JulieSHelms, hee hee, yes the standard Olympic bar is 44-45lbs. So it is something to contend with. Of course there is a woman's Olympic bar 35lbs and other non standard bars. Unfortunately my rec centre only had the 45bar when I started, hence me using machines and hand weights. I wouldn't be using a bar yet if they hadn't brought in a woman's 35 and a 17 pounder for me.
So if lighter bars are available you will be able to use them- not as far to go as you think.
I probably am the one that encouraged the buckets of protein. I am a big believer in keeping the levels up as we age and aim for between 80-100g per day for myself at 100-105 lbs, .8-1g per lbs lean body weight. (not sure if that is a bit of overkill but I would rather that than lose any more muscle at my age)
I just had a look at when you joined MFP, you haven't been here long, relatively speaking, so you probably had tonnes of information to sift through when you did that initial post. By now you probably have a better handle on sorting the wheat from the chaff.
I remembered you because you had a positive upbeat attitude; that comes through in this post too.
Cheers, h.1 -
I love this post! I'm in the camp with middlehaitch on us ladies of a certain age and protein. My intake is similar to hers.1
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