Is CICO the real deal?
samoejr
Posts: 30 Member
So I'm not really convinced that CICO is the formula for weight loss/gain. I'm not questioning the ability to lose weight counting calories and eating healthy (I lost 18 kg counting calories over 15 years ago); I just don't believe excess calories are the thing that makes us fat. My parents' generation for example never knew what calories even were and they used to eat normally and still were slim. And we all have friends who eat like crazy and never workout, but are TOO thin, or at least normal weight. It's just too overwhelming counting every single thing you eat and monitoring your CICO every single day.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
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CICO is simplified, but yes its the real deal.
If you eat more calories than you need, the body will store it as fat for a rainy day, and if you eat too little it will convert fat to energy.
The reason your parents generation didnt gain as much weight, is simply because they used their body more, and thus used more energy.
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CICO is the real deal. CICO does NOT mean counting calories, it means that the calories you eat must be equal to the calories you burn, whether you're AWARE of them or not. If calories in are more, you gain. If calories in are less, you lose. It's science, and science doesn't care if people are actually aware of it or not, it just IS.
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CICO is the real deal.6
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CICO works.
Or more specifically ... CI<CO works.
Losing weight is all about eating fewer calories than you burn.
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The act of counting calories isn't what CICO is. CICO is about energy balance, and the body you end up with is a result of whether you maintain a positive, negative, or neutral balance of intake/outake. It's really quite simple. Quantifying the intake and outake isn't CICO itstelf, it just makes the process easier to monitor.6
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Don't confuse the process (CICO/energy balance) with a method (calorie counting). Calorie intake and expenditure is the only thing that controls body weight. All you have to do to not get fat, is to not overeat. All you have to do to lose weight, is to eat less than you burn. Every person who is fat, has eaten too much for quite some time.
But what controls intake and outtake of calories, is complex, and if you want it to be, complicated. You can eat appropriately without knowing about calories, and you can eat too much even if you know how many calories there are in everything you eat. Food choice/environment is important, but how it affects people, is individual. Overweight people tend to underestimate intake; underweight people tend to overestimate intake. Habits and attitude is important and covers a wide range: Some people like to eat a lot, or are just used to it, or use food for comfort, reward and entertainment, others are always busy and "forget" to eat, regard food as fuel and eating a chore. Over time, this adds up and is reflected in our bodies.11 -
Yes it is the real deal, previous generations were slimmer because they were more active and ate less junk food, therefore they didn't put themselves into a caloric surplus, it all still came down to cals in/out regardless of whether they were measuring their intake or not. People who "eat like crazy and never workout" are not eating as much as they/you say they are and/or they are not as sedentary as you think, you are not with them 24/7 and have no idea what they consume on a 24 hour or weekly basis and you have no idea how active they are or their NEAT levels, so you're wrong there too. It doesn't matter what you believe, the science is there and it's been studied to death, the ONLY way to lose weight is with a calorie deficit, and you cannot maintain or gain weight while in a calorie deficit, it is scientifically impossible and goes against the laws of thermodynamics.7
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As much as weight management is about CICO, it's about sustained CICO, and thus adherence to CICO. To lose weight, you HAVE TO reduce calorie intake, and if you have lost weight, you HAVE reduced calorie intake. Over time. The problem with reducing calories is that we can be so eager to get the weight OFF, that we reduce too much, restrict too much, and we can't feel restricted for very long before we have to give up. Letting yourself eat without feeling restricted, making smart choices that appealed to you, made you more prone to adhere to the reduced amount of calories, which in turn made you lose weight. There really is no mystery.Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.1 -
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
I'm sure nobody could eat unlimited quantities of all food and not gain weight.
In practice, nutritionists probably do put out diets where one can eat unlimited quantities of things like lettuce, cucumber, carrot, gherkins - knowing nobody is really going to eat too much of them to push their calories over the limit.
Not sure what you mean by ' and even have vanilla ice cream for dinner if wanted to' - so could I doing calorie counting.
Of course not in unlimited quantities and of course within my calorie allowance - but I certainly ate plenty of ice cream whilst losing weight.
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Eat less calories. Lose more weight. Eat more calories. Gain weight. It's actual simple and proven science. The reason people are more overweight now than before is because of the easy access to cheap and high calorie foods. You don't even necessarily HAVE to count calories but if you find yourself gaining weight, you need to look into how much you're eating because sometimes a very small quantity of food can be way too many calories, and cause you to gain weight. Calories are energy and if you consume more energy than what is used, then that energy will be stored as fat. There is no magical secret for weightloss, no perfect balance of macros to make you shed pounds. It's simple. Eat less. Move more.3
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If you don't believe in CICO then you are misguided. Just because people didn't actively use a calorie tracker doesn't mean that the principal didn't work.
CICO is just an energy equation and has many variables.8 -
"Eating normally" and maintaining weight is called energy balance, aka CICO. Some people are just better at it.6
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So I'm not really convinced that CICO is the formula for weight loss/gain. I'm not questioning the ability to lose weight counting calories and eating healthy (I lost 18 kg counting calories over 15 years ago); I just don't believe excess calories are the thing that makes us fat. My parents' generation for example never knew what calories even were and they used to eat normally and still were slim. And we all have friends who eat like crazy and never workout, but are TOO thin, or at least normal weight. It's just too overwhelming counting every single thing you eat and monitoring your CICO every single day.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
Well my little n=1, I cut back on calories, dropped 50lbs, improved all my health markers and blood panels (including normalizing a prediabetes glucose number), have successfully maintained the loss for almost 4 years, have a current bmi of around 21 and a current waist circumference of 25. The only thing I monitor/adjust is my calorie intake.
So yeah, CICO is working good enough for me 7 -
CICO is simplified, but yes its the real deal.
If you eat more calories than you need, the body will store it as fat for a rainy day, and if you eat too little it will convert fat to energy.
The reason your parents generation didnt gain as much weight, is simply because they used their body more, and thus used more energy.
I keep hearing about this magical generation that wasn't overweight, but in my family we have overweight/obese people going way back-my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc, When we do our big family reunion (oldest person there is in their late 80s), I stick out like a sore thumb
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crzycatlady1 wrote: »I keep hearing about this magical generation that wasn't overweight, but in my family we have overweight/obese people going way back-my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc, When we do our big family reunion (oldest person there is in their late 80s), I stick out like a sore thumb
Whatever your family history, there is no doubt at all that the current prevalence of obesity is unprecedented. Look at the graph on the right. The thinnest state today is way fatter than the fattest state of 25 years ago:
http://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/1 -
So I'm not really convinced that CICO is the formula for weight loss/gain. I'm not questioning the ability to lose weight counting calories and eating healthy (I lost 18 kg counting calories over 15 years ago); I just don't believe excess calories are the thing that makes us fat. My parents' generation for example never knew what calories even were and they used to eat normally and still were slim. And we all have friends who eat like crazy and never workout, but are TOO thin, or at least normal weight. It's just too overwhelming counting every single thing you eat and monitoring your CICO every single day.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
CICO is an energy balance equation: Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) + Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) + Thermal Effect of Food (TEF) + Thermal Effect of Activity (TEA) = Total daily energy expenditure (TDEE).
The reason why some don't believe in it, is 1. They don't understand what it is, 2. They don't understand how each of these factors are influence, or 3. The feel it's too simple.
If you like science: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/242610068 -
4. They don't want to believe it, because it makes it their responsibility for eating too much and doing too little.15
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ShammersPink wrote: »4. They don't want to believe it, because it makes it their responsibility for eating too much and doing too little.
5. Not believing in it sells books and magic weight loss products or program (i.e., Dr. Fung, Dr. Oz, etc...).10 -
So I'm not really convinced that CICO is the formula for weight loss/gain. I'm not questioning the ability to lose weight counting calories and eating healthy (I lost 18 kg counting calories over 15 years ago); I just don't believe excess calories are the thing that makes us fat. My parents' generation for example never knew what calories even were and they used to eat normally and still were slim. And we all have friends who eat like crazy and never workout, but are TOO thin, or at least normal weight. It's just too overwhelming counting every single thing you eat and monitoring your CICO every single day.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
Apples still fall from trees whether you've heard of gravity or not. An older generation might not have understood calories, yet they were still a thing, just as they mightn't have understood germ theory but still got sick. Not understanding the mechanism, does not mean that the mechanism isn't the same.
Physiologies and behaviors of individuals may differ, but CICO still applies.8 -
Also wanted to say that though I'm not sure this is relevant for this particular conversation, there is a sense in which calories are an invention and once upon a time did not exist (just as inches or metres are an invention), but the energy which calories measure has always existed. We could theoretically measure energy intake and output in units other than calories but it's six of one, half dozen of the other.9
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You know, I hate the acronym CICO.
But conservation of energy is the governing principle of weight loss. It is fact one of the governing principles of the physical universe.3 -
Counting calories is just counting calories...counting calories =/= CICO...CICO is just the energy equation.
Also, you don't have to know exactly XXXX calories to maintain a healthy weight...I haven't counted calories in years and only have a rough idea of what I'm taking in but I maintain...just because I don't know doesn't mean CICO isn't in play.
Also, my parents were both obese at one time...so were my grandparents and great grandparents...I really don't know this magical generation of which you speak. Yes, obesity is more prevalent now, but that has more to do with the vast availability of cheap, calorie dense foods than whether or not our parents, grandparents, etc understood anything about energy balance.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Counting calories is just counting calories...counting calories =/= CICO...CICO is just the energy equation.
Also, you don't have to know exactly XXXX calories to maintain a healthy weight...I haven't counted calories in years and only have a rough idea of what I'm taking in but I maintain...just because I don't know doesn't mean CICO isn't in play.
Also, my parents were both obese at one time...so were my grandparents and great grandparents...I really don't know this magical generation of which you speak. Yes, obesity is more prevalent now, but that has more to do with the vast availability of cheap, calorie dense foods than whether or not our parents, grandparents, etc understood anything about energy balance.
I would add - and our increasingly sedentary lifestyles - to your comment about why obesity is more prevalent today than in past generations.
Agree with everything else - whether a person counts calories or not doesn't validate or invalidate CICO. It's like gravity - it's always there whether you pay attention to it or not.1 -
So I'm not really convinced that CICO is the formula for weight loss/gain. I'm not questioning the ability to lose weight counting calories and eating healthy (I lost 18 kg counting calories over 15 years ago); I just don't believe excess calories are the thing that makes us fat. My parents' generation for example never knew what calories even were and they used to eat normally and still were slim. And we all have friends who eat like crazy and never workout, but are TOO thin, or at least normal weight. It's just too overwhelming counting every single thing you eat and monitoring your CICO every single day.
So what's the real deal?
Update: I know that counting calories is how you monitor your CICO (and CICO is not equal to counting calories) and I know it works, but I also lost a hell lot of weight with a nutritionist who would let me eat unlimited quantities of food, and even have vanilla ice-cream for dinner if I wanted to! So my point is there must be something else.
What does "unlimited quantities of food"? How many calories are in this? What was your energy output? If you lost weight during this time you were in a caloric deficit. The fact you were ignorant of the details does not invalidate a physical principle.
You've essentially answered your own question. This is something that was not tracked previously. Life in Western society takes very limited physical effort. Everyone thinks of gross motor movements, but even little things like power steering, TV remotes, telecommuting, etc. have removed the need for the necessary action for good health.4 -
Yes, it's the real deal. How you achieve the deficit can vary, though. It could be done by counting calories, by applying certain rules that lead to lowered calorie consumption with flashy words such as "unlimited", or by many other means that lead to you eating fewer calories (like the good old crash diets of limiting your food to a couple of items until you are sick of it and don't want to eat much of it anymore).
As for your parents, they lived in a more active world with less calorific foods, smaller portions, worse food convenience, and more need for physical movement (just compare today's fully automatic washers to the washers back then). Even then, some people still managed to overconsume food.
As for your friends, they may appear to be eating a lot when in reality they are either not eating as much as you think they are or are much more active than you think they are (exercising is not the only way you burn calories). If anyone saw my dinner today would marvel at my ability to lose weight eating as much as I did. What they don't know is that I did not have breakfast and my lunch was just a couple of fruits. When I was out on an all day event I ate like the best of them, but what people didn't know is that I consumed fewer calories for a few days before the event. A few days ago I had a huge slice of pie, but what you might not know is that I had a long run that day where I burned nearly 600 calories. Now I do this consciously and plan for it, naturally thin people are either consciously careful or have habits/mechanisms that downregulate their calories if they happen to overeat without having to think about it.
Only on MFP do I see people questioning calories. I have yet to see a scientist worth their salt that doesn't take the way calories work as an indisputable fact. Of course there are many factors that influence either side of the equation and may even make it tricky to finetune sometimes with a certain margin of variance among people, but the CICO principle is still true. (unless you believe that "CALORIES DON'T EXIST, FEYNMAN SAID SO!", in that case you need help beyond what this forum can provide)7 -
Barring literally a legitimate and extremely serious medical condition (I have hypothyroidism, BTW, so I'm not being cavalier about this statement), generally, yes. Legitimate and serious meaning: the issue doesn't just affect your weight...because metabolism DOESN'T just affect your weight. So come on now. Someone who legitimately has such a slow metabolism that s/he can "eat 800 calories" (or whatever you'll see people say) "and still gain" is probably currently hospitalized, facing renal shutdown and possibly with a breathing tube (or else is on his/her way there). You don't have a metabolism so seriously damaged that you can eat toddler calories but are still walking around (and typing on the internet to complain).
That sounds mean and is severely truncated but you get the idea. If people literally, actually, realistically could consistently eat tiny amounts but "still gain," then in former periods in history, you would see 75% overweight people just like you see today (in the U.S. and I believe the UK is catching up, as are some other countries). You'd have seen the Allies releasing chubby people from Buchenwald.
Beyond that, CICO will indeed be slightly different for everyone - meaning, other things being equal, perhaps you can eat 50 more calories than I can and you'll lose weight and I'll come to a halt. But that STILL means I have to eat those 50 fewer calories...it is still CICO. I still have to eat less than I expend in order to lose weight. So do you. 4
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