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"Clean" eater critical of Low Carb

BABetter1
BABetter1 Posts: 618 Member
edited November 16 in Debate Club
A guy at work, a self proclaimed "clean eater" who doesn't eat sugar or red meat or packaged processed foods (allegedly), said to another coworker that my diet is unhealthy. He went on to claim that I would lose muscle more than fat. I eat low carb, moderate protein, high fat. I do this primarily for health reasons (pre-diabetic and insulin resistant). And yes, I already know that this type of restrictive diet is not necessary for weight loss. So, pretty please with stevia on top, do not fill up this debate with arguments about how this diet is unnecessary. I know, unnecessary, still my diet of choice. That said, I am losing weight and currently involved in a weight loss contest in the workplace. Hence, the reason my diet has become fodder for public debate in the workplace. Here is an example of what I eat in a day: For lunch yesterday, I had a HUGE spinach salad with grape tomatoes, green olives, a bit of cheese, cucumbers, roast chicken breast, and an avocado with a little lime juice and salt. For dinner last night, I had: 2 servings of homemade low carb meatloaf and a serving of cauliflower crumbles-fried rice style with a bit of scrambled eggs in it. For breakfast: I have coffee with milk pretty much every day. So, as near as I can tell (I don't know exactly everything that he eats), the primary differences between our two dietary styles is that I do eat red meat (love me a good ribeye), do eat dairy (lots of protein and fat there too), he doesn't do either. He does eat whole grains, I eat little to none. I do eat sufficient protein to maintain lean mass. So, does "clean eater" have any basis for his claim that my diet is "unhealthy" and I will lose muscle?
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Replies

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited March 2017
    I also don't see why a workplace competition would make your diet fodder for discussion unless you were choosing to make it an issue, but then I find the notion of participating in a workplace competition and making my weight loss a public thing (beyond what is unavoidable) unpleasant, so that just could be different personality types. On the health thing, I think what janejellyroll says is right on:
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    The thing about these debates is that they usually to devolve into a cherry picking of studies or junk science sources. His concerns with your diet probably center around the red meat and dairy and it's unlikely you're going to be able to convince him that those things are healthy if he's a "clean eater" who practices widespread food restrictions.

    But the harm allegedly done by those foods is more related to heart disease than muscle loss (note: I'm not saying they do lead to heart disease, I'm saying that is the claim made by those who say you should avoid them). So if he does try to start a debate with you personally and you want to respond, I'd just ask him what studies he's referring to that associate a low carb and moderate protein diet with muscle loss.

    My personal view is that if your calories are in check, you eat enough protein and healthy sources of fat, and get a good amount of vegetables and other plant foods (as it sounds like you do), that you are eating healthfully and worrying about the arguments saying one way of eating is even better vs. yours (Med vs. low carb vs. WFPB, etc.) is a good way to nullify all the benefits by adding to stress (or wasting time you could be working out or getting stuff done so you can go enjoy your life!).

    I do think that sometimes people who go on about how much healthier their way of eating is than another don't realize that there is evidence for a variety of diets and no one is going to agree and if you start telling people you are healthier than them you are just asking for it. Assuming you don't do that, just shrug it off and say you are comfortable with what you are doing, so is your doctor, and you feel good or some such. Could be he is evangelizing against meat and dairy or could be he just has a biased view against low carb and assumes you are eating mostly bacon and cheese. Either way, if he's convinced he's right (or that Forks Over Knives is the one true way), it's probably not worth getting into. When people tell me wheat kills or whatever at work I just tell to say "oh, I don't agree, but if that works for you, that's cool" and discourage conversation on the topic. (Trying to get better at this on MFP sometimes too!)
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    That's silly. A low carb diet is actually muscle sparing and if you wish you could shower him with studies saying so. I wouldn't bother though. He sounds like a pompous know it all who isn't worth your time.
  • BABetter1
    BABetter1 Posts: 618 Member
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    BABetter1 wrote: »
    A guy at work, a self proclaimed "clean eater" who doesn't eat sugar or red meat or packaged processed foods (allegedly), said to another coworker that my diet is unhealthy.

    How dare he!

    And not even to your face!

    Thems fighting words and I think this should be settled as a duel. Here are some suggestions:

    - Tofu eating contest
    - Wheat grass smoothie drinking contest (first to barf loses)
    - Bio-metric stand-up. You each submit to a full bio-metric work-up, including (but not limited to) % body fat, VO2max, %HDL/LDL cholesterol, insulin response, etc. Whoever comes out better has to adopt the others diet for at least a week.

    I know! Right?! I think that is what bothered me most is that he said it behind my back. If he had said it to me, I could have engaged in a debate with him or at least pointed out that I actually get plenty of veggies and protein and don't gorge myself on bacon and cheese. He also pointed out another person who is eating this way, and allegedly said "See, he is doing that diet and lost a lot of weight, but he doesn't have any muscle at all." Well duh, the guy he is talking about was probably 350 pounds before he started watching his diet. He is now probably 230 (just guessing), and due to knee issues, is only just now beginning to incorporate any exercise. Of course he's going to look . . . . not muscular. Anyway, "Clean Eater" is one of those types of people that is naturally thin. I know, that could be a whole other debate about whether there is such a thing as "naturally" thin, but trust me he is. Is he muscular? No. He is a beanpole. I almost want to ask him how his muscle building by "clean eating" diet alone is working for him.
  • JohnnyPenso
    JohnnyPenso Posts: 412 Member
    The self proclaimed "clean eater" is right but for the wrong reasons. You didn't mention anything about resistance or weight training in your OP, so assuming you aren't doing some intense workouts, you are going to lose muscle mass, it's unavoidable. But it's not because of what you are eating, it's because you are in a calorie deficit and some of the weight you lose will be muscle. Your best shot at maintaining it is to lift some weights or otherwise engage your larger muscles with resistance or bodyweight along the way.
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    BABetter1 wrote: »
    That said, I am losing weight and currently involved in a weight loss contest in the workplace. Hence, the reason my diet has become fodder for public debate in the workplace.

    The main thing here is not your food vs his food. It's the insanity of offices, being locked up all day with people who can completely get on your nerves.

    The contest sounds like it was supposed to be in good fun. I would draw some boundaries with the guy or the group - directly, with or without humor. You don't need to explain your food. Maybe just say "knock it off" when the next food talk starts again.

  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,575 Member
    What is a healthy diet for one may not be a healthy diet for another.
  • BABetter1
    BABetter1 Posts: 618 Member
    JohnnyPenso wrote: »
    The self proclaimed "clean eater" is right but for the wrong reasons. You didn't mention anything about resistance or weight training in your OP, so assuming you aren't doing some intense workouts, you are going to lose muscle mass, it's unavoidable. But it's not because of what you are eating, it's because you are in a calorie deficit and some of the weight you lose will be muscle. Your best shot at maintaining it is to lift some weights or otherwise engage your larger muscles with resistance or bodyweight along the way.

    I am definitely not a fitness expert. And please don't take this as an argument when I ask this question. It is a legitimate question, but could come across as sarcastic. I have X amount of lean muscle mass without any attention to diet OR exercise, but I automatically must lose lean muscle mass if I diet and lose weight without strength training? Honestly, I thought (probably read it somewhere) as long as I eat an appropriate amount of protein for my lean muscle mass, I would maintain it (not build it of course, but maintain it).

    My current exercise routine consists of elliptical sessions and long hikes on the weekends. I do plan to add in weight lifting at a future date.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    BABetter1 wrote: »
    JohnnyPenso wrote: »
    The self proclaimed "clean eater" is right but for the wrong reasons. You didn't mention anything about resistance or weight training in your OP, so assuming you aren't doing some intense workouts, you are going to lose muscle mass, it's unavoidable. But it's not because of what you are eating, it's because you are in a calorie deficit and some of the weight you lose will be muscle. Your best shot at maintaining it is to lift some weights or otherwise engage your larger muscles with resistance or bodyweight along the way.

    I am definitely not a fitness expert. And please don't take this as an argument when I ask this question. It is a legitimate question, but could come across as sarcastic. I have X amount of lean muscle mass without any attention to diet OR exercise, but I automatically must lose lean muscle mass if I diet and lose weight without strength training? Honestly, I thought (probably read it somewhere) as long as I eat an appropriate amount of protein for my lean muscle mass, I would maintain it (not build it of course, but maintain it).

    My current exercise routine consists of elliptical sessions and long hikes on the weekends. I do plan to add in weight lifting at a future date.

    When we lose weight, it's never going to be 100% fat, it's going to include some muscle. The point of choosing a reasonable calorie deficit, getting enough protein, and doing resistance training is to minimize the amount of muscle lost. This is why many people recommend doing resistance training while losing weight.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    BABetter1 wrote: »
    JohnnyPenso wrote: »
    The self proclaimed "clean eater" is right but for the wrong reasons. You didn't mention anything about resistance or weight training in your OP, so assuming you aren't doing some intense workouts, you are going to lose muscle mass, it's unavoidable. But it's not because of what you are eating, it's because you are in a calorie deficit and some of the weight you lose will be muscle. Your best shot at maintaining it is to lift some weights or otherwise engage your larger muscles with resistance or bodyweight along the way.

    I am definitely not a fitness expert. And please don't take this as an argument when I ask this question. It is a legitimate question, but could come across as sarcastic. I have X amount of lean muscle mass without any attention to diet OR exercise, but I automatically must lose lean muscle mass if I diet and lose weight without strength training? Honestly, I thought (probably read it somewhere) as long as I eat an appropriate amount of protein for my lean muscle mass, I would maintain it (not build it of course, but maintain it).

    My current exercise routine consists of elliptical sessions and long hikes on the weekends. I do plan to add in weight lifting at a future date.

    The studies that I know would suggest that you need an active progressive resistance stimulus to maintain muscle. But it doesn't make the clean eater right by any means.... because he is not.
  • tmoneyag99
    tmoneyag99 Posts: 480 Member
    edited March 2017
    BABetter1 wrote: »
    A guy at work, a self proclaimed "clean eater" who doesn't eat sugar or red meat or packaged processed foods (allegedly), said to another coworker that my diet is unhealthy. He went on to claim that I would lose muscle more than fat. I eat low carb, moderate protein, high fat. I do this primarily for health reasons (pre-diabetic and insulin resistant). And yes, I already know that this type of restrictive diet is not necessary for weight loss. So, pretty please with stevia on top, do not fill up this debate with arguments about how this diet is unnecessary. I know, unnecessary, still my diet of choice. That said, I am losing weight and currently involved in a weight loss contest in the workplace. Hence, the reason my diet has become fodder for public debate in the workplace. Here is an example of what I eat in a day: For lunch yesterday, I had a HUGE spinach salad with grape tomatoes, green olives, a bit of cheese, cucumbers, roast chicken breast, and an avocado with a little lime juice and salt. For dinner last night, I had: 2 servings of homemade low carb meatloaf and a serving of cauliflower crumbles-fried rice style with a bit of scrambled eggs in it. For breakfast: I have coffee with milk pretty much every day. So, as near as I can tell (I don't know exactly everything that he eats), the primary differences between our two dietary styles is that I do eat red meat (love me a good ribeye), do eat dairy (lots of protein and fat there too), he doesn't do either. He does eat whole grains, I eat little to none. I do eat sufficient protein to maintain lean mass. So, does "clean eater" have any basis for his claim that my diet is "unhealthy" and I will lose muscle?

    Fellow "Low Carber" here. Go listen to Dr. Ageston's 4 steps to a healthy heart. If you are pre-diabetic and insulin resistant then actually your diet IS necessary for YOU. Your blood chemistry are not the same as a non- insulin resistant person. And looking at what you are eating, it's very heart healthy. You are getting your carbs from vegetables. WHICH is what the USDA recommends. They want your plate to be 1/4 meat, 1/4 whole grain starch, and 1/2 vegetables. That is for a NORMAL person. Whole grain starches are Quinoa, Amaranth, Barley, Black Rice, Legumes. But the thing is for whatever reason, your blood chemistry does not fit into the USDA (or is it FDA) recommendations. You are a square peg and their hole is round. SO what do you do... move to a diet where your blood sugar is kept low and steady. It's full of lean veggies and good fats. There is no shame in that. You found your square hole. It looks relatively healthy based on what you posted.

    Regarding muscle mass, as long as you are doing resistance training you will not lose your muscle. Generally speaking your body will use it's excess tissue to maintain what it uses. That would be vital organs and muscle tissue used in every day movement. Granted, if you don't eat enough to help support those daily movements then yes you will lose some muscle.

    Also Some muscle loss is normal in the course of weight loss. a 300lb person that loses 100lbs does not need the same muscles it did before to move the 300lbs 1mile. So naturally that muscle becomes obselete and is consumed by the body as it is no longer being used. I can't exactly remember what the fat to muscle ratio is for weight loss but without resistance training I think it is somewhere in the ball park of 50/50. When you add resistance training you lower that ratio to somewhere like 60/40 and maybe even closer to 70/30 as you become leaner.


    Oh PS... your diet is very clean.
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