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Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.0 -
I don't like getting into it because many people have to have it their way only their way. You can find links to support any argument available.
Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?
For obese people with metabolic syndrome, there is a distinct advantage. It helps lower and stabilize insulin the body. I proved this to myself with blood tests and going off and on keto diets. With tests at the doctor to confirm it. After losing about 40 pounds my kidney doctor said I don't know what you're doing but keep doing it. I was still 60 pounds overweight.8 months in ketosis, 28 kg (61 pounds) down, regained insulin resistance, excellent cholesterol levels, feeling better than ever before. It works for me, however, I count calories, log accurately and run 6 days a week. Do what works for you in the long-term and forget the comparisons!
Same for me (80lbs) and I ate carbs. It was glorious. Funny how being OVERWEIGHT can cause all of the above, and then LOSING it can correct it.
You look great by the way!
This is true too. If you are severely obese and you lose 80 pounds your numbers will dramatically improve. It doesn't matter how you do it. All diets work to some extent.
All diets fail as well. As soon as you stop and go back to beer and cheeseburgers you gain it all back.
The key is to find something where you lose weight and get to your ideal weight and are happy and satisfied while doing it. You can't be sacrificing. It has to be sustainable.
Would you rather weigh your food and count your calories or simply learn to eat when you're hungry and not eat when you're not hungry? Oh, and stay away from certain foods for the rest of your life.
Cheers
4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway
. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.2 -
I don't like getting into it because many people have to have it their way only their way. You can find links to support any argument available.
Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?
For obese people with metabolic syndrome, there is a distinct advantage. It helps lower and stabilize insulin the body. I proved this to myself with blood tests and going off and on keto diets. With tests at the doctor to confirm it. After losing about 40 pounds my kidney doctor said I don't know what you're doing but keep doing it. I was still 60 pounds overweight.8 months in ketosis, 28 kg (61 pounds) down, regained insulin resistance, excellent cholesterol levels, feeling better than ever before. It works for me, however, I count calories, log accurately and run 6 days a week. Do what works for you in the long-term and forget the comparisons!
Same for me (80lbs) and I ate carbs. It was glorious. Funny how being OVERWEIGHT can cause all of the above, and then LOSING it can correct it.
You look great by the way!
This is true too. If you are severely obese and you lose 80 pounds your numbers will dramatically improve. It doesn't matter how you do it. All diets work to some extent.
All diets fail as well. As soon as you stop and go back to beer and cheeseburgers you gain it all back.
The key is to find something where you lose weight and get to your ideal weight and are happy and satisfied while doing it. You can't be sacrificing. It has to be sustainable.
Would you rather weigh your food and count your calories or simply learn to eat when you're hungry and not eat when you're not hungry? Oh, and stay away from certain foods for the rest of your life.
Cheers
I choose option two without staying away from certain foods for the rest of my life.8 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
1 -
8 months in ketosis, 28 kg (61 pounds) down, regained insulin resistance, excellent cholesterol levels, feeling better than ever before. It works for me, however, I count calories, log accurately and run 6 days a week. Do what works for you in the long-term and forget the comparisons!
Same for me (80lbs) and I ate carbs. It was glorious. Funny how being OVERWEIGHT can cause all of the above, and then LOSING it can correct it.
Happy you found what works for you! You had PCOS also? Was keto recommended to you by a Dr to help with your insulin resistance & PCOS symptoms?1 -
Keto agrees with me & I don't miss carbs. I will eat this way for life. I don't feel restricted and I do eat carbs, just in the form of fruit & veg. Running allows me to eat more carbs & stay in ketosis. As I said before, do what works for you and don't judge others!3
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay
wrong, protein causes insulin to spike almost as much as carbs do. So if you are Keto, which is by nature high protein, you are getting a similar insulin spike.
You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
Pretty sure I've seen people proclaiming they do this and how sating and wonderful it is. How it keeps them going for many hours of fat burning blissful glory.
That's my split. Getting more protein is hard because I don't love to eat a lot of meat... Don't think I ever called it "blissful fat burning glory" though. LOL 1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
I would think every single edible bit of any animal or fish would be eaten. So some of it would be very lean, some fattier.6 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic' 6 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay
wrong, protein causes insulin to spike almost as much as carbs do. So if you are Keto, which is by nature high protein, you are getting a similar insulin spike.
You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
Pretty sure I've seen people proclaiming they do this and how sating and wonderful it is. How it keeps them going for many hours of fat burning blissful glory. That's my split. Getting more protein is hard because I don't love to eat a lot of meat... Don't think I ever called it "blissful fat burning glory" though. LOL
Okay but please please tell me you don't eat sticks of butter wrapped in cheese.
Butter on my steak? LOL Coconut oil in my coffee?
Ooh, I did have a huge chunk of cheese the other day for a meal when I was in a rush. It must have been going on 4 oz of cheese. Yum.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic'
We are in agreement. I doubt they lived in a constant ketogenic state.
Look into ground beef for an approximate 80/20 macro split. That does not include all the fattiest bits (marrow, brain, tongue) nor the leanest bits, but normal ground beef is around that split. Most big game would look something like that except perhaps in the early spring when they have grown leaner. We would have to look back quite a ways to find people who did not plan for lean winters and springs by storing fatty foods. In the north, that would be a hard way to maintain your population.
I too wonder what the nutritional info for mammoth would be. LOL
If you find anything interesting on the plant matter being eaten by ancient man in the northern climates like the mammoth steppes, please post it. I'm interested.0 -
LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
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GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
1 -
Pretty sure I've seen people proclaiming they do this and how sating and wonderful it is. How it keeps them going for many hours of fat burning blissful glory.
Keeps me ticking over from 8 -5. I'm usually feeling the hunger by the time I get home from work but not bad.
Ultimately, if it works, it works. It doesn't matter if the reason you think it works is wrong. Even folk remedies coincide with scientific fact every now and then.
3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.1
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