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Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?
Replies
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway
. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
I would think every single edible bit of any animal or fish would be eaten. So some of it would be very lean, some fattier.6 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic' 6 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay
wrong, protein causes insulin to spike almost as much as carbs do. So if you are Keto, which is by nature high protein, you are getting a similar insulin spike.
You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
Pretty sure I've seen people proclaiming they do this and how sating and wonderful it is. How it keeps them going for many hours of fat burning blissful glory.
That's my split. Getting more protein is hard because I don't love to eat a lot of meat... Don't think I ever called it "blissful fat burning glory" though. LOL
Okay but please please tell me you don't eat sticks of butter wrapped in cheese.
Butter on my steak? LOL Coconut oil in my coffee?
Ooh, I did have a huge chunk of cheese the other day for a meal when I was in a rush. It must have been going on 4 oz of cheese. Yum.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic'
We are in agreement. I doubt they lived in a constant ketogenic state.
Look into ground beef for an approximate 80/20 macro split. That does not include all the fattiest bits (marrow, brain, tongue) nor the leanest bits, but normal ground beef is around that split. Most big game would look something like that except perhaps in the early spring when they have grown leaner. We would have to look back quite a ways to find people who did not plan for lean winters and springs by storing fatty foods. In the north, that would be a hard way to maintain your population.
I too wonder what the nutritional info for mammoth would be. LOL
If you find anything interesting on the plant matter being eaten by ancient man in the northern climates like the mammoth steppes, please post it. I'm interested.0 -
LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
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GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
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Pretty sure I've seen people proclaiming they do this and how sating and wonderful it is. How it keeps them going for many hours of fat burning blissful glory.
Keeps me ticking over from 8 -5. I'm usually feeling the hunger by the time I get home from work but not bad.
Ultimately, if it works, it works. It doesn't matter if the reason you think it works is wrong. Even folk remedies coincide with scientific fact every now and then.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.
265 to 150...that's very awesome! I struggle with keeping my protein down. It's easy to increase your fat. Go with savory cooking. Use healthy fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter and full-fat cheeses. My target is 5/30/65. But I run a little higher on carbs and protein. If you are obese, I don't think adding extra fat to reach your ratios is a good idea. You have plenty of fat in you already! I tried that for a while. It was too much and I didn't lose. But I didn't gain either.
Also, people say the don't like keto because it cuts out foods. Obese people trying to lose weight will have to give up something. So it's either low carb or low calorie. For me personally, I could take or leave the things you drop on low carb like processed foods, breads, cake, ice cream, pasta, and potatoes. The beer was tough, though!
Oh, wait. Isn't that the same stuff people restrict on low calorie? Yes, but the also cut out fats as well.
One equals happy and satisfied and the other equals grumpy and sacrificing.
Cheers & good luck!
3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.
265 to 150...that's very awesome! I struggle with keeping my protein down. It's easy to increase your fat. Go with savory cooking. Use healthy fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter and full-fat cheeses. My target is 5/30/65. But I run a little higher on carbs and protein. If you are obese, I don't think adding extra fat to reach your ratios is a good idea. You have plenty of fat in you already! I tried that for a while. It was too much and I didn't lose. But I didn't gain either.
Also, people say the don't like keto because it cuts out foods. Obese people trying to lose weight will have to give up something. So it's either low carb or low calorie. For me personally, I could take or leave the things you drop on low carb like processed foods, breads, cake, ice cream, pasta, and potatoes. The beer was tough, though!
Oh, wait. Isn't that the same stuff people restrict on low calorie? Yes, but the also cut out fats as well.
One equals happy and satisfied and the other equals grumpy and sacrificing.
Cheers & good luck!
I have long since abandoned traditional keto, as it proved to be garbage for bulking phases for me, and RFL just works better for cutting. That said, it clearly works well for some.
I was actually a bit disappointed when I discovered that a 40/45/15 p/c/f split provides me with better bulking and recomp results. Kinda miss the chicken wings and ribs ever so often. However, my eating is generally robotic as hell, and I will eat what provides the best results.
As a wise man once wrote: "to hell with my inner child; my inner hulk determines what I am eating at any given point."2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.
265 to 150...that's very awesome! I struggle with keeping my protein down. It's easy to increase your fat. Go with savory cooking. Use healthy fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter and full-fat cheeses. My target is 5/30/65. But I run a little higher on carbs and protein. If you are obese, I don't think adding extra fat to reach your ratios is a good idea. You have plenty of fat in you already! I tried that for a while. It was too much and I didn't lose. But I didn't gain either.
Also, people say the don't like keto because it cuts out foods. Obese people trying to lose weight will have to give up something. So it's either low carb or low calorie. For me personally, I could take or leave the things you drop on low carb like processed foods, breads, cake, ice cream, pasta, and potatoes. The beer was tough, though!
Oh, wait. Isn't that the same stuff people restrict on low calorie? Yes, but the also cut out fats as well.
One equals happy and satisfied and the other equals grumpy and sacrificing.
Cheers & good luck!
Fat doesn't make you fat. Fat isn't evil unless it's excess stored body fat. You don't store excess body fat by increasing dietary fat in the absence of a calorie surplus. That's not how it works.5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.
265 to 150...that's very awesome! I struggle with keeping my protein down. It's easy to increase your fat. Go with savory cooking. Use healthy fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter and full-fat cheeses. My target is 5/30/65. But I run a little higher on carbs and protein. If you are obese, I don't think adding extra fat to reach your ratios is a good idea. You have plenty of fat in you already! I tried that for a while. It was too much and I didn't lose. But I didn't gain either.
Also, people say the don't like keto because it cuts out foods. Obese people trying to lose weight will have to give up something. So it's either low carb or low calorie.
No, it's lower calorie regardless. You can lower the calories by mostly cutting carbs, mostly cutting fat, mostly cutting everything, or--what a lot of us do--mostly cutting carbs and fats depending on what seems most easily removed without being missed, and maybe increasing some other things that are lower cal (like veg, leaner cuts of meat, plainer versions of carbs if you like them, fruit instead of a lot of sweets, if that's an issue).For me personally, I could take or leave the things you drop on low carb like processed foods, breads, cake, ice cream, pasta, and potatoes. The beer was tough, though!
Oh, wait. Isn't that the same stuff people restrict on low calorie? Yes, but the also cut out fats as well.
Well, no, I cut down on fats, sure -- instead of using a bunch of butter or olive oil I learned things taste as good with just a spritz. I eat less ice cream and pay attention to my servings of pasta (and eat more sauce but don't include as much cheese or fat as I used to -- taste even better than it did and just as satisfying). I didn't overeat potatoes before and probably eat them as much now, but mainly as plain roasted potatoes -- I wasn't a chip person and save fries for special occasions, but it's the fat that makes those high cal. I tend to like potatoes best without a bunch of added calories -- mixing them with meat is enough flavor if you want more than them on their own.
I never ate much cake and don't drink beer, I did realize that I ate rice and bread often just because it was there even though I don't care about either, so I cut way down on those, and beats me what you mean by processed foods -- major processed foods I eat are pasta (covered), cottage cheese/plain greek yogurt (helpful in meeting protein needs and I probably eat more of it than I did and love it), smoked salmon (would be perfectly fine on a low carb diet, and I haven't cut down on it either), cheese and butter (I do eat less of both but haven't cut them out), olive and coconut oil (I eat less of both but haven't cut them out), tofu/tempeh/occasional protein powder -- not sure why you'd need to cut them on a low carb diet, dried and canned beans/lentils (these would have to be cut on low carb, but they probably weren't a major thing that was overeaten for most).One equals happy and satisfied and the other equals grumpy and sacrificing.
Yes, I do think one should pick the things one is least likely to miss, either for taste or nutritional reasons. Seems like good common sense. Since my weakness IS more fat than carbs (like I said, a lot of plain starches like bread and rice don't call my name, I like some sweet things, but not nearly as much as some here seem to, and I've always hated cold cereal, among other things), when I do this I cut both fat and carbs (which I'd overuse in both cases when eating mindlessly) and end up with a moderate carb diet (lower carb if calories were lower). But that's without aiming for any particular carb number or feeling like I have to cut out carbs I really enjoy like pasta (as part of a healthy, balanced dinner), potatoes and sweet potatoes, lentils, fruit, oats, or sure cottage cheese and ice cream, the occasional cookie or piece of pie. It also means I can include steak, chicken on the bone with skin, cheese, ice cream, cookies, etc., olive oil, butter, and other higher fat things, and never have to worry that the vegetables I eat have too many carbs if I eat as much as I want. It's about personal preference.
Of course anyone not eating mindlessly probably does have to make choices between foods, but that doesn't mean a diet is restrictive or unsatisfying -- I think mine is more enjoyable when eating mindfully, since I make more careful choices with my calories and don't eat things just because they are there or add too much of something because I'm not thinking.3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic'
We are in agreement. I doubt they lived in a constant ketogenic state.
Look into ground beef for an approximate 80/20 macro split. That does not include all the fattiest bits (marrow, brain, tongue) nor the leanest bits, but normal ground beef is around that split.
80% fat? I've never seen that. Standard (non lean) ground beef is more like 80% lean, no? Cheaper is lower, but not 20%. And the cheapest cows are grain-fed, so fattier than they naturally would be (although they still have no bearing on what wild animals would be like and they vary a bunch due to climate, of course). I get grass-fed beef from a local farm, including ground beef without any specific fat percentage, and based on appearance and taste it's even lower fat than the 80-20 (although I log it as such to be safe), and certainly nowhere near 80% fat.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.
It is hard to know. I can walk down and back up the steep hill quickly without resting unlike needing to resting 10+ times before I went off of sugar and all grains over 2 years ago.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.
It is hard to know. I can walk down and back up the steep hill quickly without resting unlike needing to resting 10+ times before I went off of sugar and all grains over 2 years ago.
An increase in fitness does not equate to an increase in muscle mass.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »BrendaMHirst wrote: »Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.
When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.
The first nations of Canada mostly ate lower carb, depending on season, especially on the plains and in the north. I imagine much of northern Europe was fairly low carb on average. Keto at time and moderate carb at others.
I imagine it is quite different closer to the equator.
If we look at Neanderthal diet for Ice Age Europe, then actually no: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161027094135.htm - far more likely moderate carb, which is not keto. Even at times when plants may have been scarcer, they were more high protein/low fat: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329132245.htm (and Neanderthals may have specifically evolved to deal with that), which again is not the high fat/low carb most doing keto here adhere to.
Interesting... I do doubt that their diet was high protein though. Large animals are high in fat. Bison and such all have a LOT of fat in them, and people ate them when they were at their fattiest for ease of storage and to maintain good health - from what I understand.
Even in they ate exclusively meat, which most peoples did not do, they would probably have a fat/protein split of 80/20 up to maybe 65/35 which is getting into high protein. Keto'er who aim for zero carb, and eat a carnivorous diet of just meat, tend to get splits around 75/25 to 70/30, give or take a few percentages.
What do they think people/neanderthals were eating on the mammoth steppe in terms of plant matter? I'm curious. It looks a lot like Mongolia - grasses and dry. I can't imagine there was a lot to eat there. I doubt the Mongols ate a lot of plants too. Sort of like the first nations plains people here. There are some berries an roots they would eat but calorie wise it was a minority amount.
Just to clarify where I am coming from, I consider moderate carbs to be over 150g per day, and up to 45-50% of your total calories.
Well, the current science is disagreeing with you sorry, for Neanderthals anyway. I would have to delve deeper to answer your question re what plants they were eating, which I unfortunately don't have time to do right now. perhaps another day
And obviously the definition of 'low carb' comes into this. My carb intake is generally between 100-160g a day (though it can be higher depending on my overall calorie intake and also what kind of activity I'm doing, it's not often over 200g though), and I don't consider myself low carb (I'd put myself in the moderate range). Did our Palaeolithic ancestors eat lower carb than what most people do today? Yep, almost undoubtably, especially in colder climates. But not as low as keto levels, which is what this discussion is about, and the statement I originally quoted and took issue with (that previously people 'naturally ate in a ketogenic way').
Human diet has historically been a tricky area for archaeologists, because plant remains generally don't survive in the archaeological record (other than under very specific circumstances). Hence the emphasis on animal remains, and the (erroneous) assumptions about heavily meat-based diets. But advances in terms of the types of analysis that can be undertaken using modern techniques are changing that, and the evidence is showing a much higher plant consumption than previously thought. Not high carb, but definitely not keto.
This IS interesting. I wonder what the neanderthals did to get so high protein... Avoided large game or just ate muscle meat maybe? Not fatty seafood?
Raw or rare meat tends to have a higher degree of carbs in it. So does very fresh meat. Perhaps that affected it?
I don't think many ancient cultures or peoples ate ketogenic. The ones I listed - maybe. It's debateable if those cultures (like the Inuit) were in ketosis or not. I do agree that they were probably much lower carb than people eat today. I think many food guides still recommend over 50% of calories from carbs. My guess, only a guess, is that ancient northern people ate low carb to moderate carb.
By most diet definitions, you do eat low carb. Moderately low carb. Low carb is usually considered below 100 to 150g of carbs per day. Ketosis (very low carb) is usually considered to be under 50g per day but some go higher with that label if they time carbs around exercise or they are very active. Those with metabolic issues tend to eat under 50g; I'm usually 20-30g.
Haha, they definitely didn't avoid large game!! And they would have utilised as much of the animal as they could. But even a harsh winter diet of woolly mammoth isn't going to provide you with an 80% fat intake (not that I can for the life of me find the nutritional info for woolly mammoth, but one caught late autumn/early winter would have had a pretty substantial fat layer), unless they didn't eat the leaner meat, which is silly from a logic point of view, and which science indicates isn't the case. They most definitely were exploiting marine resources, fish and shellfish: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023768; http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024026 (that first link also talks more about plant consumption and gives a reference to what was available where that you can follow), though probably not fatty fish (which tend to be 'offshore' fish), and most shellfish species are pretty crap on fat content (though mussel, the dominant species in the link above, is better than many, with a mighty 2.25ish grams of lipids per 100g of flesh).
But, it seems we're in agreement, ancient populations weren't 'naturally ketogenic'
We are in agreement. I doubt they lived in a constant ketogenic state.
Look into ground beef for an approximate 80/20 macro split. That does not include all the fattiest bits (marrow, brain, tongue) nor the leanest bits, but normal ground beef is around that split.
80% fat? I've never seen that. Standard (non lean) ground beef is more like 80% lean, no? Cheaper is lower, but not 20%. And the cheapest cows are grain-fed, so fattier than they naturally would be (although they still have no bearing on what wild animals would be like and they vary a bunch due to climate, of course). I get grass-fed beef from a local farm, including ground beef without any specific fat percentage, and based on appearance and taste it's even lower fat than the 80-20 (although I log it as such to be safe), and certainly nowhere near 80% fat.
Yeah, it's 80% protein, 20% fat, not the other way around.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.
It is hard to know. I can walk down and back up the steep hill quickly without resting unlike needing to resting 10+ times before I went off of sugar and all grains over 2 years ago.
So you improved fitness not muscle mass. Walking, particularly the short distances you do, is not going to result in increasing muscle mass.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.
It is hard to know. I can walk down and back up the steep hill quickly without resting unlike needing to resting 10+ times before I went off of sugar and all grains over 2 years ago.
So you improved fitness not muscle mass. Walking, particularly the short distances you do, is not going to result in increasing muscle mass.
Well, it could, but only if the walks were loaded. Get on dem farmer's walks Gale. 1 -
A Keto diet does impose restrictions on food. Keto is much more than it seems. Iv'e lost 19.4 lbs since starting keto on December 10, 2016. If you're just looking at restaurant food, its wrong for you. I got prescribed this diet by a friend who is an Orthopaedic Surgeon. Keto all about re-training your liver to use the fat it has stored to convert to sugar. Read the facts. 1 gm of carbs / sugar / protein = 4 calories. 1 gm of fat = 9 calories, 1 gm of alcohol = 7 calories. I've lost 4 inches at the waist since December 10, 2016, since going into keto. I had a week off keto while friends visited, and gained 7 lbs. In two weeks back on keto, have lost all those 7 lbs and more. Not everyone will like the restrictions, but those that do persevere will find results. Please read books by Volek & Phinney, who are counted among the most authoritative for the Keto diet.3
-
Not everyone will like the restrictions, but those that do persevere will find results.
Yes, those who cut calories by doing keto will find results. Some will enjoy that way of losing, and some will not.
Similarly, those who cut calories through any other way of achieving a calorie deficit will find results.
I don't think anyone denies that keto works, but just that it's the only thing that works or is otherwise superior.
(Note, I think there are things that may make it the best choice for a particular individual.)5 -
A Keto diet does impose restrictions on food. Keto is much more than it seems. Iv'e lost 19.4 lbs since starting keto on December 10, 2016. If you're just looking at restaurant food, its wrong for you. I got prescribed this diet by a friend who is an Orthopaedic Surgeon. Keto all about re-training your liver to use the fat it has stored to convert to sugar. Read the facts. 1 gm of carbs / sugar / protein = 4 calories. 1 gm of fat = 9 calories, 1 gm of alcohol = 7 calories. I've lost 4 inches at the waist since December 10, 2016, since going into keto. I had a week off keto while friends visited, and gained 7 lbs. In two weeks back on keto, have lost all those 7 lbs and more. Not everyone will like the restrictions, but those that do persevere will find results. Please read books by Volek & Phinney, who are counted among the most authoritative for the Keto diet.
The 7lbs was water weight from replenishing glycogen stores and just a general increase in carbs and salt intake. You didn't gain and lose 7lbs plus more losses in 3 weeks. Keto isn't magic.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?
I'm most of the way there and I've only just eaten breakfast (although I'm going for 5/25/70). It's not that difficult.
Oh, I am aware. I was keto for years when going from 265 to 150. I was just never able to hit the higher echelons of fat intake, and usually ended up with more of a 5/40/55 split, and even that required large amounts of mascarpone to hit. I always tended more toward the "mostly meat with some spinach and asparagus" route though, so ribs and chicken wings were about the highest fat per kcal value things I could be bothered with. Tried the BPC thing, but couldn't take it for more than a couple of weeks.
265 to 150...that's very awesome! I struggle with keeping my protein down. It's easy to increase your fat. Go with savory cooking. Use healthy fats like olive oil, coconut oil, butter and full-fat cheeses. My target is 5/30/65. But I run a little higher on carbs and protein. If you are obese, I don't think adding extra fat to reach your ratios is a good idea. You have plenty of fat in you already! I tried that for a while. It was too much and I didn't lose. But I didn't gain either.
Also, people say the don't like keto because it cuts out foods. Obese people trying to lose weight will have to give up something. So it's either low carb or low calorie.
No, it's lower calorie regardless. You can lower the calories by mostly cutting carbs, mostly cutting fat, mostly cutting everything, or--what a lot of us do--mostly cutting carbs and fats depending on what seems most easily removed without being missed, and maybe increasing some other things that are lower cal (like veg, leaner cuts of meat, plainer versions of carbs if you like them, fruit instead of a lot of sweets, if that's an issue).For me personally, I could take or leave the things you drop on low carb like processed foods, breads, cake, ice cream, pasta, and potatoes. The beer was tough, though!
Oh, wait. Isn't that the same stuff people restrict on low calorie? Yes, but the also cut out fats as well.
Well, no, I cut down on fats, sure -- instead of using a bunch of butter or olive oil I learned things taste as good with just a spritz. I eat less ice cream and pay attention to my servings of pasta (and eat more sauce but don't include as much cheese or fat as I used to -- taste even better than it did and just as satisfying). I didn't overeat potatoes before and probably eat them as much now, but mainly as plain roasted potatoes -- I wasn't a chip person and save fries for special occasions, but it's the fat that makes those high cal. I tend to like potatoes best without a bunch of added calories -- mixing them with meat is enough flavor if you want more than them on their own.
I never ate much cake and don't drink beer, I did realize that I ate rice and bread often just because it was there even though I don't care about either, so I cut way down on those, and beats me what you mean by processed foods -- major processed foods I eat are pasta (covered), cottage cheese/plain greek yogurt (helpful in meeting protein needs and I probably eat more of it than I did and love it), smoked salmon (would be perfectly fine on a low carb diet, and I haven't cut down on it either), cheese and butter (I do eat less of both but haven't cut them out), olive and coconut oil (I eat less of both but haven't cut them out), tofu/tempeh/occasional protein powder -- not sure why you'd need to cut them on a low carb diet, dried and canned beans/lentils (these would have to be cut on low carb, but they probably weren't a major thing that was overeaten for most).One equals happy and satisfied and the other equals grumpy and sacrificing.
Yes, I do think one should pick the things one is least likely to miss, either for taste or nutritional reasons. Seems like good common sense. Since my weakness IS more fat than carbs (like I said, a lot of plain starches like bread and rice don't call my name, I like some sweet things, but not nearly as much as some here seem to, and I've always hated cold cereal, among other things), when I do this I cut both fat and carbs (which I'd overuse in both cases when eating mindlessly) and end up with a moderate carb diet (lower carb if calories were lower). But that's without aiming for any particular carb number or feeling like I have to cut out carbs I really enjoy like pasta (as part of a healthy, balanced dinner), potatoes and sweet potatoes, lentils, fruit, oats, or sure cottage cheese and ice cream, the occasional cookie or piece of pie. It also means I can include steak, chicken on the bone with skin, cheese, ice cream, cookies, etc., olive oil, butter, and other higher fat things, and never have to worry that the vegetables I eat have too many carbs if I eat as much as I want. It's about personal preference.
Of course anyone not eating mindlessly probably does have to make choices between foods, but that doesn't mean a diet is restrictive or unsatisfying -- I think mine is more enjoyable when eating mindfully, since I make more careful choices with my calories and don't eat things just because they are there or add too much of something because I'm not thinking.
24 thousand posts. Impressive! Each to his own. Keto has a big metabolic advantage for Type2 diabetics and people with metabolic syndrome and the super obese. There are a lot of misconceptions about keto and low carb. The experts I follow recommend eating as many vegetables as you want. We don't restrict that other than starchy stuff. I've lost 53 pounds in 4 months. This seems pretty magical to me. I'm old and I have either been on the way up or the way down since my 30's. I've reached my ideal weight 4 times only to gain it back plus some each time. Sad, I know. I see keto as a good solution for people who like to eat and have had trouble with their weight. It's sustainable for a lifetime.
4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LucasWilland wrote: »Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.
Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.
Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.
Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."
http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
Yes any time one increases both the number and health of their mitochondria it is a metabolic advantage. Most any metabolic advantage that lowers one's risk for premature death from diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart attack, etc is a good thing as LCHF and other WOE's may offer.
eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii
Its simple called, dont be over weight, exercise and have good genetics. If you are still overweight, dont exercise and eat keto or vegan or whatever, you'd still be at a higher risk than those who are at a good weight, exercising and following whatever diet.
Thank goodness, i am lean, exercise and have long life in my family where people commom live in the 90s or early 100s.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540458/Effects of Exercise on Mitochondrial Content and Function in Aging Human Skeletal Muscle
Both our way of eating and moving are major factors in good health for sure.
Any way of eating that increases nutrient dense foods, that helps you lose weight, will improve health markers. Exercise is a huge driver on top of that as well, as demonstrated by this initial review.
So do you do intense exercise or do you rely solely on diet?
I walk min of 1/4 mile daily.. Other than keeping my carbs around 50 grams daily by guess I eat all I want most days (2000-3000 calories).
Keeping my pain levels well managed by LCHF and supplements to increase my mitochondrial quantity and quality high seems to keep my metabolism elevated so my muscle mass keeps increasing.
You walk 1/4 mile a day? As in a quarter of a mile? And you think this is increasing your muscle mass?
@VintageFeline the quarter of mile reply was to the question that I was asked. No health claims were stated based on that one daily activity. Do you think that LCHF alone could be responsible for my muscle mass increase?
No which is why I asked. You were asked if you exercised and only mentioned the walking, therefore it is fair for me to assume that's all you do and thus cannot be gaining any appreciable muscle mass.
It is hard to know. I can walk down and back up the steep hill quickly without resting unlike needing to resting 10+ times before I went off of sugar and all grains over 2 years ago.
It's actually not hard to know. Walking is not an active stimulus that would provide progressive overload, forcing your muscle fiber to be broken down and forcing them to grow. Add on top of that, that LCHF makes it harder to gain muscle, let alone maintain it since you are on a low protein diet as well.
If you look at the low carb studies, most would suggest it can support muscle retention, but that is if you are close to 1g per lb of lean body mass, something most keto'ers are afraid to do. In fact, most of the clients I work with that are keto, that is the first thing I do. The second thing is time nutrients because it's can support MPS and inhibit protein degradation.3
This discussion has been closed.
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