Calorie reduction and macro nutrient variations, plus exercise cannot stop my fat gain
zrad1
Posts: 4 Member
6'2", 263lbs male with low-t. I have hired two highly qualified personal trainers. The first personal trainer at Pro Sports Club and the sexond from Golds Gym. I fired both of them. Two months with the first trainer on an 1,850 cal carefully scripted and religiously adhered to 40/40/20 diet, 3 days of weight resistance training and three days of table tennis with one day rest. After two months, I gained 4% body fat and had not lost an ounce of weight.
Golds gym trainer had me on mega protein low carb diet with the same exercise protocol. No results.
Two nutritionists with diets from 1800 - 2200 calories per day, no results.
I have a highly accurate Polar monitor. On an average resting day I burn on average 2,900 - 3200 calories. When I work out from 4,000 - 5,000 calories.
One dietitian in Bellevue was honest enough to discontinue my treatment due to lack of results. "Mr.xxxx, I am sorry but if you are doing everything I have prescribed and I believe you are, then I don't know what is going on in that freak-show body of yours. I apologize, but I don't want to take your money when you are not getting any results."
Testosterone treatment is out of the question due to high IGF-1 levels.
I was on Atkins induction phase diet for 3 years and dropped 100 pounds and was down to 12.3% body fat, but the diet was unsustainable and I eventually got sick.
I tried going vegan and liked it, but lost lean muscle mass and gained fat. So no more going vegan.
Now nothing I do has any effect on my weight which slowly but inexorably is going up.
Is there anyone here who can offer some educated advice? I stopped taking all weight loss supplements and will not take any. The only thing that got thinner when I was spending $500/month on supplements was my wallet, not my waist!
Thank you.
Golds gym trainer had me on mega protein low carb diet with the same exercise protocol. No results.
Two nutritionists with diets from 1800 - 2200 calories per day, no results.
I have a highly accurate Polar monitor. On an average resting day I burn on average 2,900 - 3200 calories. When I work out from 4,000 - 5,000 calories.
One dietitian in Bellevue was honest enough to discontinue my treatment due to lack of results. "Mr.xxxx, I am sorry but if you are doing everything I have prescribed and I believe you are, then I don't know what is going on in that freak-show body of yours. I apologize, but I don't want to take your money when you are not getting any results."
Testosterone treatment is out of the question due to high IGF-1 levels.
I was on Atkins induction phase diet for 3 years and dropped 100 pounds and was down to 12.3% body fat, but the diet was unsustainable and I eventually got sick.
I tried going vegan and liked it, but lost lean muscle mass and gained fat. So no more going vegan.
Now nothing I do has any effect on my weight which slowly but inexorably is going up.
Is there anyone here who can offer some educated advice? I stopped taking all weight loss supplements and will not take any. The only thing that got thinner when I was spending $500/month on supplements was my wallet, not my waist!
Thank you.
5
Replies
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@zrad1 at least you have learned what will not work out for you. My current focus is not on weight loss but just eating in a way that will lower my C-Reactive Protein (CRP) test scores.
I have never seen any weight loss supplements. Are you talking like Vitamin D, K2, etc?0 -
Hi and welcome! I love this >>>>>>> http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p16
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6'2", 263lbs male with low-t. I have hired two highly qualified personal trainers. The first personal trainer at Pro Sports Club and the sexond from Golds Gym. I fired both of them. Two months with the first trainer on an 1,850 cal carefully scripted and religiously adhered to 40/40/20 diet, 3 days of weight resistance training and three days of table tennis with one day rest. After two months, I gained 4% body fat and had not lost an ounce of weight.
Golds gym trainer had me on mega protein low carb diet with the same exercise protocol. No results.
Two nutritionists with diets from 1800 - 2200 calories per day, no results.
I have a highly accurate Polar monitor. On an average resting day I burn on average 2,900 - 3200 calories. When I work out from 4,000 - 5,000 calories.
One dietitian in Bellevue was honest enough to discontinue my treatment due to lack of results. "Mr.xxxx, I am sorry but if you are doing everything I have prescribed and I believe you are, then I don't know what is going on in that freak-show body of yours. I apologize, but I don't want to take your money when you are not getting any results."
Testosterone treatment is out of the question due to high IGF-1 levels.
I was on Atkins induction phase diet for 3 years and dropped 100 pounds and was down to 12.3% body fat, but the diet was unsustainable and I eventually got sick.
I tried going vegan and liked it, but lost lean muscle mass and gained fat. So no more going vegan.
Now nothing I do has any effect on my weight which slowly but inexorably is going up.
Is there anyone here who can offer some educated advice? I stopped taking all weight loss supplements and will not take any. The only thing that got thinner when I was spending $500/month on supplements was my wallet, not my waist!
Thank you.
I just have a few questions if you don't mind:
1) How long have you been on myfitnesspal logging your intake?
2) While I'm generally not a fan of ketogenic dieting for MOST people, it seems like you did this and had great results. I'm curious if you have tried this anytime recently. If you did try it, what happened? If you didn't try it, why didn't you given your previous successes?
3) What method were you using to assess your body-fat with the first trainer, where you saw a gain of 4% bodyfat?
These are just things I'm curious about.
Thanks!4 -
You and I are worlds apart. The thing that gave me great results is being disciplined to logging in everything I ate with high consumption of broccoli spinach kale etc with protein to match my body weight. I never had enough calories to "play" so my body had no choice but to use good fuel.0
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Unless you are a medical anomaly from an alternate dimension, the CICO energy balance equation also applies to you. Double down on verifying your numbers.5
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I have been logging in every single atom that crossed my lips for years. Discipline is not my problem, results are. I am tired of over-analyzing everything and accumulating so much data, then slicing and dicing it until I realized just how ridiculous this is. No more fastidiously logging in every single ounce, I am done with that because it did not yield any clear insights and I am a data analyst. One thing I learned is that most diets fail long term, so eating in a restrictive way is not for me. I am not sure if anyone knows how restrictive the Atkins induction phase is, but I was on it for three years eating less than 20 grams of carbs until I had to go to the hospital and they showed liver and kidney damage directly due to high uric acid and linked to my diet. The moment I touched carbs, like strawberries, sweet potatoes, my weight started going up very quickly. Not doing that anymore, that is just brain damaged. No more BDK (benign dietary ketosis). My numbers are coming from the nutritional databases and Polar and have been double-checked for accuracy. I used the body fat gold standard; the water tank dunking. I also used the highly accurate body electric resistance scales. I would appreciate any thoughtful, well educated and sensitive replies.2
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Are you using a food scale to weigh out portions?
If you are not losing you are not in a calorie deficit...7 -
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I have been logging in every single atom that crossed my lips for years. Discipline is not my problem, results are. I am tired of over-analyzing everything and accumulating so much data, then slicing and dicing it until I realized just how ridiculous this is. No more fastidiously logging in every single ounce, I am done with that because it did not yield any clear insights and I am a data analyst. One thing I learned is that most diets fail long term, so eating in a restrictive way is not for me. I am not sure if anyone knows how restrictive the Atkins induction phase is, but I was on it for three years eating less than 20 grams of carbs until I had to go to the hospital and they showed liver and kidney damage directly due to high uric acid and linked to my diet. The moment I touched carbs, like strawberries, sweet potatoes, my weight started going up very quickly. Not doing that anymore, that is just brain damaged. No more BDK (benign dietary ketosis). My numbers are coming from the nutritional databases and Polar and have been double-checked for accuracy. I used the body fat gold standard; the water tank dunking. I also used the highly accurate body electric resistance scales. I would appreciate any thoughtful, well educated and sensitive replies.
Just as an FYI, Error rates with body fat analysis are quite high. In fact, both DEXA and hydrostatic weighing have upwards of 3-5% margin of error rate in individuals with bioelectrical impedance having massive error rates.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-3-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-1-and-2/the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-part-2/1 -
I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!1
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If you lost weight on Atkins before it means you were able to lose by unintentionally creating a deficit so you are able. It seems you're not in a deficit. If you don't weigh and track your food you are almost certainly over consuming or your gizmos are giving you crazy caloric burns and you're eating back non existent exercise cals and eliminating the deficit.0
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An almost 2k burn according to your polar? What the heck were you doing? Swimming overseas?4
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I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
Are you eating back your exercise calories? Maybe try a steady 2200-2500 calories regardless of activity and see how you do?
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Can you open your diary?
Have you had a complete blood work up? Because if you are eating less than you are burning, and you aren't losing weight, there has to be a medical reason.
The usual non-medical reasons:- You are measuring your intake innacurately.
- You are using bad entries in the database.
- Your exercise calories are off so your TDEE isn't as high as you think.
If those things aren't the issue, then perhaps a medical issue is causing your TDEE to be lower than typical. I can't imagine a reason why if you keep the same calories in, but increase exercise, you would gain weight - that is kind of breaking the laws of physics. Sorry, that's all I've got.4 -
I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
Cico is NOT eating twinkles all day and he t is now a way of eating. It is a mathematical formula for calculating calories in vs calories out. If you are not losing you are not in a caloric deficit.
Have you been tested for a medical condition?5 -
Yeah, an open diary would be helpful.1
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One thing is for sure, you cannot defy the laws of physics, if you are gaining weight, you are consuming more calories than you are burning. Since you are certain that your CI is spot on, then your CO must be lower. You may have a medical condition that is causing a lower calorie burn, but you are eating more than you are burning if you are gaining weight.8
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Are you eating back exercise calories? If so...how much? You say that you only gain when you exercise so it would appear that your weight gain is associated with eating back your exercise calories.
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I'm curious what Polar device is "highly accurate"? I know of no such device.9
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I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Working out to lose weight is a good way to insure 100%+ regains down the road. Something always getting in the way of working out at some point in time.
This time around I decided to do nothing to loose weight that I could not be doing when I am 100. Well I do walk 0.25 miles daily but that is to maintain muscles for balance. I do not weight food or count calories unless I have a question that I can not answer about my weight. The brain can act on our intent and manage our weight itself when we resolve any disordered eating. Keep in mind the law of physics is just a part to weight loss/gain. We are electro/hormonal controlled creatures not a closed loop mechanical machine based on physics. That is why CICO is only a fraction of the weight maintenance equation.
Do you know your CRP (C-Reactive Protein) level is currently or in the past? Eat for one year with the main goal to get it as near ZERO as possible then focus on weight loss or muscle building perhaps?
Weight loss is very hard if not impossible with a high CRP level. CICO does not even factor in this all important fact.
For the last 2.5 years of detailed studying weight loss and the many non CICO factors of weight management I am just starting to get past the false concepts that dooms close to 100% of us winding up heavier than before after each diet.
Give it some time and google some real science behind weight management. You too will get this figured out but watch the fake dieting info because it is everywhere you turn. In the end all that matters is what gives you better long term health. We all can be different.2 -
Have you had your thyroid checked? That will wreak havoc on your weight if it's over/under active.2
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GaleHawkins wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Effects of exercise on appetite are individually variant and tend to be intensity/modality dependent too. I don't think it's at all accurate to state that it should increase appetite.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Effects of exercise on appetite are individually variant and tend to be intensity/modality dependent too. I don't think it's at all accurate to state that it should increase appetite.
https://caloriesecrets.net/does-exercise-increase-the-appetite/0 -
Now that goal oriented approach isn't working, what about process oriented with a goal other than weight loss?
Like....Forget about fat loss and focus on something healthy that does work?3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Effects of exercise on appetite are individually variant and tend to be intensity/modality dependent too. I don't think it's at all accurate to state that it should increase appetite.
https://caloriesecrets.net/does-exercise-increase-the-appetite/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23835594
CONCLUSIONS:
High-intensity intermittent exercise suppresses subsequent ad-libitum energy intake in overweight inactive men. This format of exercise was found to be well tolerated in an overweight population.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029840
Conclusions
In obese adolescent boys, HIE has a beneficial impact on 24-h energy balance, mainly due to the spontaneous decrease in energy intake during lunch and dinner following the exercise bout.
As I said it is dependent on modality/intensity. Additionally, it's important to recognize that studies tend to report on averages but when you dig into individual subjects (when that info is available) you may find substantially different results from person to person.
As such, I don't think it's correct to claim that exercise should increase appetite.
Please note: This is NOT me saying that exercise definitively decreases appetite. This is me saying that we have evidence that exercise decreases appetite in some subjects at some intensities and therefore it is false to make the blanket claim that exercise should increase appetite.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Effects of exercise on appetite are individually variant and tend to be intensity/modality dependent too. I don't think it's at all accurate to state that it should increase appetite.
https://caloriesecrets.net/does-exercise-increase-the-appetite/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23835594
CONCLUSIONS:
High-intensity intermittent exercise suppresses subsequent ad-libitum energy intake in overweight inactive men. This format of exercise was found to be well tolerated in an overweight population.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029840
Conclusions
In obese adolescent boys, HIE has a beneficial impact on 24-h energy balance, mainly due to the spontaneous decrease in energy intake during lunch and dinner following the exercise bout.
As I said it is dependent on modality/intensity. Additionally, it's important to recognize that studies tend to report on averages but when you dig into individual subjects (when that info is available) you may find substantially different results from person to person.
As such, I don't think it's correct to claim that exercise should increase appetite.
Please note: This is NOT me saying that exercise definitively decreases appetite. This is me saying that we have evidence that exercise decreases appetite in some subjects at some intensities and therefore it is false to make the blanket claim that exercise should increase appetite.
That is similar to the link that I posted so I learned something new tonight. After digging in health related research for the last 2.5 years for disease recovery it is clear people can respond very different to seemingly similar stimulus. Thanks.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
@zrad1 Working out should increase your appetite.
Effects of exercise on appetite are individually variant and tend to be intensity/modality dependent too. I don't think it's at all accurate to state that it should increase appetite.
https://caloriesecrets.net/does-exercise-increase-the-appetite/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23835594
CONCLUSIONS:
High-intensity intermittent exercise suppresses subsequent ad-libitum energy intake in overweight inactive men. This format of exercise was found to be well tolerated in an overweight population.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029840
Conclusions
In obese adolescent boys, HIE has a beneficial impact on 24-h energy balance, mainly due to the spontaneous decrease in energy intake during lunch and dinner following the exercise bout.
As I said it is dependent on modality/intensity. Additionally, it's important to recognize that studies tend to report on averages but when you dig into individual subjects (when that info is available) you may find substantially different results from person to person.
As such, I don't think it's correct to claim that exercise should increase appetite.
Please note: This is NOT me saying that exercise definitively decreases appetite. This is me saying that we have evidence that exercise decreases appetite in some subjects at some intensities and therefore it is false to make the blanket claim that exercise should increase appetite.
That is similar to the link that I posted so I learned something new tonight. After digging in health related research for the last 2.5 years for disease recovery it is clear people can respond very different to seemingly similar stimulus. Thanks.
Thanks.
Just for what it's worth, I TEND to find that low intensity exercise decreases appetite for me and high intensity exercise increases it.1 -
I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
How do you know you are gaining fat? If you are exercising, you could well be building muscle. Also, there has never been shown to be any advantage in a metabolic ward study in terms of energy expenditure or fat loss to a ketogenic diet ever, going all the way back to the 1970s. The key is to find something sustainable that you can keep for the rest of your life. It is also important to take breaks from your diet as needed, and eating maintenance calories for at least 2 weeks, preferably after dieting for about 8 weeks.
If you want, you could include a higher carb, calorie day every week to help restore Leptin levels a bit, but the benefits to this aren't as set in stone as some would have you believe.
It may also be the case that you are unfortunately a metabolic snowflake, and your body adapts very efficiently to being in a deficit. If that is the case, I would recommend you see a doctor if you do indeed suspect that you have a metabolic condition (but make sure they are credible and won't put you on a 24 hour juice fast or some crazy crap like that).
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I did not read all the responses so I apologize if I mention something already stated. I personally have had challenges with zero results over the years. Not to the extreme as you but I will tell you a big eye-opener for me was STRESS and FOOD SENSITIVITIES. You may be feeding your body foods it doesn't like and therefore have constant inflammation. Along with stress and cortisol you will never lose. Either you can get tested at the doctor OR I did all my testing at Lifetime Fitness. Still working on changing my habits so no real results yet but I just found out a few weeks ago that I shouldn't eat eggs, gluten or nuts. These were things I ate daily.1
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LucasWilland wrote: »I have been using a highly accurate and expensive professional grade kitchen scale. There is nothing I have not overlooked regarding the accuracy of calories consumed. I know of CICO and have read about the twinkie diet etc.. , that is not working for me if I exercise. If I do not exercise, the weight starts to come off, but for some reason if I exercise, my weight goes up and I do not mean water weight, actual fat. So frustrating and puzzling!!!
How do you know you are gaining fat? If you are exercising, you could well be building muscle.
With low test and mostly cardio I highly doubt this is the case
2
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