Eating what you want within calories vs Keto within calories

Options
24

Replies

  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    Options
    For me, I was too hungry on keto and the food choices were not inline with my preferences. I do better eating what I want within calories because I'm less hungry and happier with my food choices.
  • comeonnow142857
    comeonnow142857 Posts: 310 Member
    Options
    the difference? halitosis!
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Options
    I tend to lose just a bit easier on keto at the same calories. It is not a huge difference, perhaps a couple of hundred calories, but it is pretty consistant.

    I find keto easier to stick to than higher carb too. With just counting calories I can rarely last more than a couple of weeks before the hunger gets to me and I overeat. Then I found it hard to get back on track. I tended to slip into yoyo dieting. That doesn't happen to me with keto. If I have a hungry day I may eat more that day, but the next day I'm not hungry and I eat less. With a higher carb diet I just stay hungry.

    If my electrolytes get low, that is the only time I feel something like cravings. I don't feel well, and when I feel poorly and energy is low, I tend to eat in search of extra energy. While in ketosis we need 3000-5000mg of sodium per day; that's over 2 teaspoons of table salt per day. It sounds like you are low in electrolytes. Extra salt or broth may help. Don't add extra water as that will further dilute your electrolytes. KWIM?
    comeonnow142857 wrote: »
    the difference? halitosis!

    This only happens in the unlucky minority and is usually transient. My breath actually got a bit fruity.

    Now gas is often the reverse issue. Fewer sugars and fibre often means less fermentation and less gas. Nice side effect. ;)

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,867 Member
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Fortunately there's a gigantic continuum of food selections between "keto" and "eat whatever I want".

    In my opinion, there's a good probability that you just need to modify your food choices to improve satiety without necessarily going on a ketogenic diet.


    I feel like we are discussing the endpoints here and excluding the middle.

    Exactly...
  • menotyou56
    menotyou56 Posts: 178 Member
    Options
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Hi guys!

    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    I've tried eating anything I want to a set calorie goal many times. Failed them all every time as well lol. If I say to myself, go ahead and have that reese's pbc just count the cals...by the end of the day the whole bag is gone and I'm back to square one.

    I would always feel intense hunger on a CICO only diet as well. 24/7. Going to bed, waking up and in the middle of the day, hunger.

    Now I'm counting cals with keto and for the first time ever I feel like I can actually get this done and get back to a normal BMI for the first time since being a teenager.

    Stick with keto. Really go for 20 carbs or less if possible. I believe even up to 50 carbs a day will still keep you in ketosis though so don't freak if its over 20 a bit. Your craving for carbs will die off soon. At least mine did and I'm a lifelong junk carb junkie, it's working for me.

    Once you are keto adapted, tracking and keeping to your cal limit set by MFP will be a breeze. That's been my experience anyway.

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,867 Member
    Options
    Spiffy_Barbarella wrote: »
    Keto works because it suppresses your appetite, so you eat less. Calories in, calories out.

    It doesn't suppress everyone's appetite...I'm far more satiated eating a diet rich in legumes, lentils, oats, potatoes, etc, and plenty of lean protein with a moderate amount of fat (enough for proper nutrition and health). Left to my own devices, I can go through a block of cheese and a gallon of whole milk no problem...
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    menotyou56 wrote: »
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Hi guys!

    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    I've tried eating anything I want to a set calorie goal many times. Failed them all every time as well lol. If I say to myself, go ahead and have that reese's pbc just count the cals...by the end of the day the whole bag is gone and I'm back to square one.

    But then you AREN'T eating a balanced diet within your calorie limit, right?
    I would always feel intense hunger on a CICO only diet as well. 24/7. Going to bed, waking up and in the middle of the day, hunger.

    There are usually other ways of eating that control this besides keto.

    Not saying you shouldn't do keto if you like it -- I think keto can be a good choice for some. But so often people switch from a diet that wasn't particularly what is normally recommended for health or satiety (for example, includes a lot of candy or other junk foods, not a lot of veg or other sources of fiber, maybe lower on protein than what they later adopt) and then blame "carbs" or not doing keto for their hunger issues.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Options
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    menotyou56 wrote: »
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Hi guys!

    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    I've tried eating anything I want to a set calorie goal many times. Failed them all every time as well lol. If I say to myself, go ahead and have that reese's pbc just count the cals...by the end of the day the whole bag is gone and I'm back to square one.

    But then you AREN'T eating a balanced diet within your calorie limit, right?
    I would always feel intense hunger on a CICO only diet as well. 24/7. Going to bed, waking up and in the middle of the day, hunger.

    There are usually other ways of eating that control this besides keto.

    Not saying you shouldn't do keto if you like it -- I think keto can be a good choice for some. But so often people switch from a diet that wasn't particularly what is normally recommended for health or satiety (for example, includes a lot of candy or other junk foods, not a lot of veg or other sources of fiber, maybe lower on protein than what they later adopt) and then blame "carbs" or not doing keto for their hunger issues.

    I think for some of us, a LCHF, often keto, diet is what is left after you remove those trigger foods that prevent us from eating within our calories limit. (I wouldn't say "balanced" as that is a personal interpretation, IMO.)

    My trigger foods are sugars and starches. That leaves meats, seafood, eggs, dairy, veggies and some fruit. That tends towards low carb (under 100-150g of carbs per day) very naturally. Many people eat low carb because they have chosen those foods. Their macros naturally land there. I think you fall around that range (correct me if I am wrong).

    Others, like me, landed at that diet/food choices because of our chosen macros. For me, I knew I needed to eat fewer carbs due to IR. We ended up with similar food choices but approached it from different directions.
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    Options
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    Oh, man. The hard part is sticking to your calories. Being able to have a raspberry smoothie after a long bike ride is a lot easier than having to use butter to flavor your coffee.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Options
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    menotyou56 wrote: »
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Hi guys!

    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    I've tried eating anything I want to a set calorie goal many times. Failed them all every time as well lol. If I say to myself, go ahead and have that reese's pbc just count the cals...by the end of the day the whole bag is gone and I'm back to square one.

    But then you AREN'T eating a balanced diet within your calorie limit, right?
    I would always feel intense hunger on a CICO only diet as well. 24/7. Going to bed, waking up and in the middle of the day, hunger.

    There are usually other ways of eating that control this besides keto.

    Not saying you shouldn't do keto if you like it -- I think keto can be a good choice for some. But so often people switch from a diet that wasn't particularly what is normally recommended for health or satiety (for example, includes a lot of candy or other junk foods, not a lot of veg or other sources of fiber, maybe lower on protein than what they later adopt) and then blame "carbs" or not doing keto for their hunger issues.

    I think for some of us, a LCHF, often keto, diet is what is left after you remove those trigger foods that prevent us from eating within our calories limit. (I wouldn't say "balanced" as that is a personal interpretation, IMO.)

    Yes, I think that's possible, but so many people say that they raised protein and vegetables eating low carb that I think many don't genuinely try eating a sensible healthful diet that has higher carbs (for many the "trigger" foods seem to be things like candy, as the poster mentioned, and not oats or apples or corn, and yet "carbs" are blamed vs. "hyperpalatable foods" or eating an unbalanced, not particularly satisfying diet before going keto).

    I do agree that for some -- you are one, there are some other frequent lower carb posters -- there does seem to be an issue with any higher carb foods (like starches in general, fruit) making a diet less satiating. My pet theory is that this may be related to a problem with insulin resistance, but who knows, but I see many others who claim that "cutting carbs" made the diet more filling when the prior diet wasn't close to what anyone would call satiating or healthful and included lots of foods that are high fat AND high carb that for some reason get classified as "carbs" (like donuts, chips).

    I also think that independent of what macro is most satiating that some do have issues with hunger and that keto (probably because for the body it mimicks starvation in some ways) tends to kill the appetite. I suspect that most people who eat a healthful diet with more carbs won't have hunger as a major thing (or can deal with mental hunger by breaking bad habits), but I do think people are different and for some this effect of keto can be enormously valuable (while for others it never kicks in or is counterproductive).

    All I object to are: (a) claims that "carbs" aren't filling when what people are referring to are specific carbs (like candy, donuts) that often also are high in fat, (b) claims that we all find fat filling and carbs not; and (c) claims that anyone not doing keto/low carb will be struggling with hunger or cravings. There are ways I can eat that DO cause hunger or cravings to be a problem (I shifted away from them naturally, as I think anyone sensible should), but it has nothing to do with carb %.

    I think that insulin resistance does have an effect on hunger and which foods keep you full. Large blood sugar swings defintely play a part in my experiences. I don't agree that its because it mimics starvation, unless you consider steadier blood sugar as being similar to starvation.

    I realize that you feel that foods that cause hunger or craving problems have nothing to do with carb percentages. We differ there. Your experiences with food, hunger and overeating are quite foreign to me just like it appears mine are to you.

    My trigger foods are sugars and starches. That leaves meats, seafood, eggs, dairy, veggies and some fruit. That tends towards low carb (under 100-150g of carbs per day) very naturally. Many people eat low carb because they have chosen those foods. Their macros naturally land there. I think you fall around that range (correct me if I am wrong).

    Yes, I naturally end up around 150 g carbs when at maintenance and less (more like 100-125 g) when at a deficit, and I really enjoy eating that way as it allows me to eat a bit more fat which isn't specifically satiating to me (protein is, so is fiber and some other carbs like potatoes, and I find just a plate of vegetables pretty filling or a piece of fruit), but which I love and find makes my diet overall more enjoyable. I've tried lower fat since I've toyed with plant based, and tend to be less satisfied although never hungry. I'm more apt to desire other foods in a hedonistic way than when eating a higher fat and protein diet. And yes, I naturally think of the meat or other source of protein plus vegetables as making a full meal and other things as extras, so that's how I naturally tend to eat. That happens without me watching macros at all and did when I was gaining weight too, which is why for me I know just cutting carbs doesn't ensure weight loss/maintenance.

    But all that aside, I don't think of my carb percentage as low carb -- it's moderate carb. I'd say at a lower cal level low is under 100 g, and of course that's WAY above keto.

    There are no carb percentages for low carb, at least that I know of. Low carb is under 100-150g of carbs. Those that go with 100g are often using net carbs. I suppose some would consider your diet to be moderate carb. Others will call it low carb.

    Keto is under 50g by most definitions. Your carbs are about twice as high as a keto'er but about half a much as a typical moderate carb diet. IMO.

    Others, like me, landed at that diet/food choices because of our chosen macros. For me, I knew I needed to eat fewer carbs due to IR. We ended up with similar food choices but approached it from different directions.

    Yeah, I agree with this, except I don't think we have similar food choices, really. But I see nothing wrong with lower carb and would probably fall within the broadest lower carb umbrella myself, certainly when at a deficit. I've experimented with trying to force myself to eat higher carb to see if it helped my training and concluded that even if it did, a little, I really don't like eating that way and prefer percentages for low carbvvmore moderate carb or slightly lower carb for me personally. I also often write about how I think low carb can be a good choice for people (including keto), so long as it doesn't mean cutting out/giving up on vegetables, of course, and that what people find satisfying and satiating is individual. I think I understand why people would find low carb preferable and recommend that anyone interested experiment with it.

    This is why I find it frustrating that you seem to peg me as anti LC or complain when I point out that it's not the right choice for everyone and that traditional healthy diets are commonly higher carb. My point is never that low carb is bad, but only that low carb isn't right for everyone or somehow inherently healthier, especially if people focus on their reaction to low nutrient/high fat and carb junk foods as what "carbs" are.

    (I include this last paragraph as I would like to get past this as I don't think we are as far apart on all this as you often seem to believe, from my reading of your comments toward me.)

    I think our food choices are quite similar. The quanity of those choices varies. I don't eat as much plant foods as you because it bothers my stomach and affects my BG. I don't believe these are issues you are limited by.

    I have no idea why you found my comments above as pegging you as anti-LC. I don't see why you perceived what I wrote as complaining about something you said. I was attempting to build on what you had written and point out the similarities in how we eat. We both tend to skip what some would label as "bad carbs". I realize you have not said that low carb is bad, just as I hope you realize that I did not write that low carb is the only true path to good health.

    The bolded is basically what my initial reply was all about.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,404 MFP Moderator
    Options
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Fortunately there's a gigantic continuum of food selections between "keto" and "eat whatever I want".

    In my opinion, there's a good probability that you just need to modify your food choices to improve satiety without necessarily going on a ketogenic diet.


    I feel like we are discussing the endpoints here and excluding the middle.

    This is what I don't get. Just because you can eat anything, doesn't mean people should be eating like crap all day long. I tend to keep carbs around 300g a day, protein around 175g and the rest fat. But at the end of the day, I am concentrating on whole foods that allow for high volume.


    What I have found, both with myself and working with people.... those who are volume eaters tend to do better with carbs. Those who are not, tend to gravitate towards fat. I suffer on low carb. I thrive on high carb.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,404 MFP Moderator
    Options
    It should be noted that in isocaloric studies that hold protein constant, there is NO difference in fat loss between the two diets, especially over time. LCHF/Keto diets have greater weight loss short term due to glycogen/water loss..
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited April 2017
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    It should be noted that in isocaloric studies that hold protein constant, there is NO difference in fat loss between the two diets, especially over time. LCHF/Keto diets have greater weight loss short term due to glycogen/water loss..

    True. The main strength of LCHF seems to be that (many/most) low carbers naturally tend to eat less which leads to slightly greater weight loss. Low carbers tend towards hypocaloric diets....
  • macchiatto
    macchiatto Posts: 2,890 Member
    edited April 2017
    Options
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    It should be noted that in isocaloric studies that hold protein constant, there is NO difference in fat loss between the two diets, especially over time. LCHF/Keto diets have greater weight loss short term due to glycogen/water loss..

    True. The main strength of LCHF seems to be that (many/most) low carbers naturally tend to eat less which leads to slightly greater weight loss. Low carbers tend towards hypocaloric diets....

    True. And for me, it's had other health benefits, too, that I wasn't even necessarily expecting, but that's where individual medical conditions can come into play. That's why I plan to stay LCHF for life, though now at maintenance I'm gradually experimenting with what foods and carb levels seem to trigger my symptoms (everything from cycle irregularity to joint pain to reflux to constant hunger/cravings) and which don't.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I think that insulin resistance does have an effect on hunger and which foods keep you full. Large blood sugar swings defintely play a part in my experiences. I don't agree that its because it mimics starvation, unless you consider steadier blood sugar as being similar to starvation.

    You are conflating two separate points that I was making.

    I think low carb/keto can be helpful for IR people who tend to feel hungry/unsatisfied/craving after eating carbs, and think that has to do with them not being able to use the carbs properly or experiencing the satiation feeling that follows insulin with people who are sensitive to it/able to use it properly. I don't think IS people normally experience this (and can say that I do not find that I am hungrier eating carbs or find carbs non satiating or to trigger cravings).

    I ALSO think -- and this is based on reading -- that people not IR can find that keto eliminates feelings of hunger and even makes them not feel like eating. I believe that this is because keto to your body is similar to a period of starvation in some ways (not saying this makes it bad), and therefore the presence of ketones can often diminish feelings of hunger, which would be problematic if one didn't have food available and felt miserable and lethargic. To me it's like fasting for a bit and you stop feeling as hungry (which is something I've experienced). I don't think this happens to everyone, but it does seem to happen not uncommonly, and is why for some who struggled with hunger (and often seem to imagine that everyone struggles with hunger) it can be a wonderful thing.
    I realize that you feel that foods that cause hunger or craving problems have nothing to do with carb percentages. We differ there. Your experiences with food, hunger and overeating are quite foreign to me just like it appears mine are to you.

    But I didn't say this at all. That's inconsistent with what I said and you responded to above. I think it's something that matters for people who have serious issues with feeling hungry (which I think can happen to some from our food environment) -- this is keto, specific -- and that it also matters (and can be helped by lowering carbs, even to no keto levels) for others who find carbs unsatiating, often people who have insulin resistance problems.

    But I also think that many (not all) people who claim they were unsatisfied eating carbs were specifically eating not just higher carb diets, but the SAD, which is not especially high carb, but includes lots of foods that aren't particularly satiating and are easily overeaten. It's not really a comparison in many cases between a healthful diet of 50% carbs (lots of vegetables and legumes and whole grains and fruit) and 25% protein and one that is lower carb. Like I said, I agree there are exceptions and that carbs in general can be problems for some who are IR (many of whom can solve that problem just by losing weight, but again not all).
    There are no carb percentages for low carb, at least that I know of. Low carb is under 100-150g of carbs. Those that go with 100g are often using net carbs. I suppose some would consider your diet to be moderate carb. Others will call it low carb.

    There's no hard and fast definition at all. I think percentage makes more sense, as the recommendations tend to be in percentages (40-65% carbs or some such). I'm around 40% at maintenance, lower at a deficit probably. I've been letting myself eating a bit lower than that this year (before going vegetarian for Lent, which led me to increase carbs, and I am looking forward to eating more like I was earlier in the year again), so moderate to low-ish compared to the US average/normal recommendations, sure (I also eat more vegetables, more meat and eggs, and less grains than the usual recommendations would suggest, although of course there's no upper limit on veg, and this is largely because I don't care much about grains). I'm somewhat interested in experimenting with going a bit lower too, just to see what I think of it, which is why I'd read the low carb group if it were open to me (I used to read it and the paleo group sometimes and never commented -- I'd not go in a group and argue, as I think that would be rude). Anyway, I've thought of trying keto but I don't think I want to worry about eating starchier veg or amounts of them (I eat lots of root veg like carrots and turnips and so on plus winter squash in the winter) or fruit, and I also don't think I'd enjoy eating that much fat, so will just let preferences guide me. But like I said I see nothing wrong with keto, although I think the fact that no or nearly no traditional diets result in ketosis precludes the argument that it is healthier for the average person (I agree that it is good for certain medical conditions, although we disagree somewhat on which ones or how widespread this is).
    Keto is under 50g by most definitions. Your carbs are about twice as high as a keto'er but about half a much as a typical moderate carb diet. IMO.

    150 g is generally considered moderate carb, as I understand it. 100 g, yeah, I think that's more low-ish, which is why I kept saying that I am kind of low carb when I was hanging out more around 100 g in January.
    I have no idea why you found my comments above as pegging you as anti-LC. I don't see why you perceived what I wrote as complaining about something you said. I was attempting to build on what you had written and point out the similarities in how we eat. We both tend to skip what some would label as "bad carbs". I realize you have not said that low carb is bad, just as I hope you realize that I did not write that low carb is the only true path to good health.

    The bolded is basically what my initial reply was all about.

    I am reacting to past interactions and discussions, including a thread recently (that of course I cannot recall the name of!) where you were claiming that people were being anti keto, which seemed to be directed in part at me. (We were discussing myths, but it wasn't that food myth thread. You had asked if people would treat vegan and paleo diets with the same kinds of "it's not necessary for everyone" comments.) Anyway, doesn't matter and if you understand I'm not anti LC, that's cool. Sometimes when people comment about what "people" say it's hard to know if it is directed at you or not, since I don't see anyone else saying whatever it is either, and I had been given to believe from other sources that there was an impression I was anti LC which I'd found unfair (especially since my carbs are not all that high, so I'd be anti myself!).

    Anyway, if I was wrong about that I really am delighted, since I was feeling like I was being read differently than intended.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    psuLemon wrote: »
    It should be noted that in isocaloric studies that hold protein constant, there is NO difference in fat loss between the two diets, especially over time. LCHF/Keto diets have greater weight loss short term due to glycogen/water loss..

    Also, the studies that show a difference tend to show that it's beneficial for those who are IR and beneficial to low fat (by comparison) for those who are IS. But I myself (who am IS) am evidence that a possible slight increase in metabolism isn't that significant given other things, as I am just happier eating moderate to lower carb and not low fat, even if I don't lose as fast as I could/have a slightly lower TDEE.
  • kpk54
    kpk54 Posts: 4,474 Member
    edited April 2017
    Options
    k_e_l wrote: »
    Hi guys!

    Just wondering how many of you have tried both keto (within your calorie limit) & eating whatever you want (within your calorie limit)? What did you find was easier to do?

    I'm asking because I have tried both myself & when I wasn't doing keto, I always felt hungry & cranky. So, I started keto last week & I do feel fuller eating at the same deficit, but I'm also fighting cravings to eat carbs & feel like giving up. Lol, I don't know what I want to do!

    Share your experience with me!

    Me. Almost. I lost my excess 60 pounds eating ~40%carbs/30p/30f. Based on total calories allocated through weight loss, this placed me ~160 carbs total down to ~120 as I lost weight and grams adjusted. I didn't eat "anything I wanted" but occasionally had sweets, pasta, etc. My NET carbs probably averaged less than ~100 down to 60 or so. I ate plenty of vegetables, fruits and legumes for carbs. After weight loss, my maintenance calories were ~1500 @ stationary. I'm 63, female and do not exercise much.

    I continued to eat 40/30/30 for ~2 years of maintenance. The only problem I had was that I was honestly always hungry. I was able to white knuckle through the chronic hunger and maintain. It was true hunger. 3 years maintaining now, I know the difference between eating for any number of reasons and eating for hunger. I was hungry. Nuff said.

    In 4/16 I learned of Ketogenic diets for various medical reasons and the one that applies to me is a neurological movement disorder, Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis. I decided to try Keto (~20grams of carbs, 15-20% protein, 75-80% fat). I continued with 1500 maintenance calories and just ate different foods/macro. I've eaten keto for 1 year and have been strict in regards to keeping both protein and carbohydrates limited (so not a high protein type keto diet). My observations:

    1) keto did minimize the hunger. Fat must satiate me better than carbs or protein.
    2) keto did reduce my "cravings" for my favored sweets. I rarely "slip" .
    3) keto makes it easier for me to stay @ calories due to satiation HOWEVER
    4) keto foods are high calorie and it was/is very easy for me to eat over since I sometimes "inhale" foods.
    5) I have had to be EXTREMELY mindful of calories/habits with keto foods to not go over my calorie limit.
    6) I have not found keto to have a metabolic advantage. 1500 calories before. 1500 calories on keto. I maintain.
    7) I have not noticed that I have become a miracle "fat burning machine". The clothes I purchased in April/May of 2014 after I lost my weight are still worn today and fit exactly as they did then. No additional body "shrinkage" this past year while eating keto.

    Info below is not weight loss maintenance related. ST/CD update:
    Unfortunately, after about 6 months keto, the improvement I had noted from about week 2,3,4 (early) regarding the minimizing of my involuntary movements, began to diminish. Change is every easy for me to gauge. The movement/unusual postures are obvious to the eye of others and myself. Certainly for me, I feel the obvious difference. My head is either turned right and I am looking over my shoulder with the inability to look forward, or I am not. :( 10/2017: I chose to experiment with the ketogenic MCT Oil diet for about 4 months though I still kept carbs and protein at the same limit just adding MCT Oil for fat. No luck.

    I'm pretty disappointed. I have no research to back my idea but my idea is that Keto stopped working for my neurological disorder perhaps just as a medication for Epilepsy or Parkinson's may stop working for an individual. Not sure what my plan is now but I'm not hungry. :) I just have to be careful (again) that I don't stab myself in the cheek with a fork when my head decides to take an additional spaz to the the right. ;) Upside is, CD/ST does slow down my eating.
  • macchiatto
    macchiatto Posts: 2,890 Member
    Options
    @kpk54 I'm sorry that it stopped working for your symptoms. :( That must be frustrating. I hope you find something else that helps.

Categories