Processed "Gunk" vs "Clean" Eating
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I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
For me, and I think many, getting enough protein and enough vegetables (and also fruit, but I think vegetables are more important) makes a difference as to how easy it is for me to avoid overeating. It doesn't matter so much whether they are fresh or frozen, technically processed or not, although in a dorm room fresh veg and fruit might be easiest. (Again, don't know if you have a meal plan, but at my college there was always an excellent salad bar, good options for proteins, and fresh fruit available, as well as various vegetable sides.)0 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
But most people translate this as "it's not eating ANY processed foods." Also, for the obsessives like me (and although I didn't call it "clean eating," when I was into something similar of my own making, I was obsessive), as close to nature form as possible isn't much of an out. Is cheese (good artisan cheese) as close to its natural form as possible? Obviously not, as you could drink raw milk or something. Is cheese therefore not clean? Some clean eaters think so, some do not, but to the extent it's about avoiding processed as much as possible it's obviously not, IMO.
Flour -- as minimally processed as possible or not? What if I got a handmill like someone in a book I've read did? What if I knew the mill owner and it was some craft thing -- and one issue with all this junk is that it very quickly becomes a hobby for those with money to spend and who want to feel better about themselves for buying things that most of the country cannot afford. But if we accept that flour and cane sugar is as minimally processed as possible (for what they are) or, heck, used honey instead of sugar, you can make pretty much any high cal thing out there (I am assuming butter is okay under the same principle).
And the nutritional benefit is not from avoiding flavored greek yogurt but only eating homemade yogurt from raw milk. It's from having a diet that's rich in nutrient dense foods and balanced, which you don't have to eschew processed foods (however illogically defined) to do it.
And I totally know you are not arguing in favor of clean eating here.
One thing that just always gets me is to be lectured about how clean eating is important and the rest of us eat poorly from someone who claims to eat NO processed foods but has Panera and protein powder and a ton of other things more processed than my average meal in her diary. The irony chokes me.
But of course that has not (thank goodness!) happened in this thread yet.
I do think it's important to get at what the person is really after and to help them out, as I said before, but to me part of that is educating on what "processing" really means and because it's such a ridiculous buzz word these days and some seem to really think it means "unhealthy" or "bad," explaining that it's a HUGE category of foods.
I also like to get into how processing and some of the other departures from what is strictly natural allow us today to have access to a much more nutritious diet than we might otherwise. For example, in Chicago there's a huge part of the year when I wouldn't have much fruit or veg or many types of fish, etc., without things like processing and it's close ally, the food industry (that freezes fish and brings it far from home to sell, that carts in produce from warmer climates. Not that this is unalloyed good in every way, but it's certainly not as inherently bad as some seem to think.
Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.
I think people just starting any new process should not be trying to educate others unless it's to point them to a book or website.
What does this mean? Is it supposed to refer to me (what new process am I starting? I'm playing around with decreasing carbs, but that has 0 to do with this topic).
What I am educating about is the meaning of the term "processed" and the fact that a HUGE range of processed foods exist, many of which are quite nutrient dense and not high cal. This is in part to counter constant misinformation (including some in this thread) that processed foods are inherently high cal, junk, full of sodium and sugar and fat, etc.That's true, for me, whether we're talking about diet, religion, computer programming, or most other things.
Hmm. Not on MFP, of course, but if someone made misinformed statements about my religion I hope I would politely and nicely correct them without trying to convert them, of course. If someone makes false statements about something else I know about, I might correct that information too. In general I think false information should be corrected.
Beyond that, I do think understanding what processed food is, that it is extremely varied and not some terrible scourge that makes us fat, understanding nutrition (and that it's not a matter of avoiding processed foods but of what you include in your diet), stuff like that, is useful and factual.It does help when newbies come asking rather than telling. I've come across people in places not MFP who say they eat 3 bananas a day and swear they're keto. You're right in that processed means different things to different people. I'm not sure what the answer is other than coming to an agreed upon definition of specific diet plans.
Processed has an actual meaning, though. People usually just haven't thought it through (often because what they personally eat is more limited and is both processed and often too high in calories to nutrition for the amount of room it takes up in their diet). IMO, pointing out that processing is not the issue is part of answering the usual question: how do I eat better?
For example, I personally think that for someone who wants to lose weight and improve nutrition OFTEN increasing protein (especially lean protein) and vegetables and fruit and perhaps fiber from other sources (depending on whether they are cutting carbs or not, as that mostly applies to people eating more grains/legumes) is a good choice. It makes little difference whether these are from processed sources (canned beans, even a frozen veg mix that comes with a sauce, the rice and beans with veg I mentioned, or even a really healthy frozen meal option) or non processed, so if someone has barriers to the less processed options (living in a dorm room, or perhaps not yet a cook or hates it, time requires some convenience foods, whatever), so IMO it is actually really helpful and NOT obnoxious to point out it's not really about processed foods vs. not.1 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »Clean eating is a specific plan according to what I was able to Google.
No, it's absolutely not. Some people may have created a variety of different specific plans they call clean, but mostly it's a dieting buzzword that means different things to different people, generally something along the line of "eating no processed food" or sometimes (more honestly) "mostly cooking from whole foods" (which is what I do and most who do "clean eating" would say I eat clean as they use the term, even though I personally dislike that buzzword).
OP herself asked what we considered "clean eating" and it's worth noting that these days many seem to use it as meaning just nutrition-conscious eating, which many of us certainly can give good advice on (and from OP's clarifications I think that's what she's really after).
I think when someone mentions "clean eating" you really need to ask for clarification.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
Which is why I refuse to use the word "processed". It is almost as meaningless as "clean". When I am referring to foods such as frozen dinners, take-out, canned soups, boxes of Mac and Cheese, etc. I prefer to use the word "convenience foods". Most people know what I mean and I am able to make my point without going around and around.
I rarely eat convenience foods. Why? I live alone and make a lot of 1 dish meals in my crock pot with 4-6 servings so I usually have leftovers. I also freeze a few servings so I have something to eat in a pinch. These meals often have processed foods in them, but not necessarily convenience foods. I am NOT going to peel and cut up a bunch of tomatoes when I can just dump a can of no salt added diced tomatoes (which is processed). many of my veggies are frozen bagged veggies.
I encourage people to eat as much nutrient dense whole food as works for them, but don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
Which is why I refuse to use the word "processed". It is almost as meaningless as "clean". When I am referring to foods such as frozen dinners, take-out, canned soups, boxes of Mac and Cheese, etc. I prefer to use the word "convenience foods". Most people know what I mean and I am able to make my point without going around and around.
I rarely eat convenience foods. Why? I live alone and make a lot of 1 dish meals in my crock pot with 4-6 servings so I usually have leftovers. I also freeze a few servings so I have something to eat in a pinch. These meals often have processed foods in them, but not necessarily convenience foods. I am NOT going to peel and cut up a bunch of tomatoes when I can just dump a can of no salt added diced tomatoes (which is processed). many of my veggies are frozen bagged veggies.
I encourage people to eat as much nutrient dense whole food as works for them, but don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.
You know, that's a really good point, and helps explain my confusion.
Growing up, McDonald's was "fast food" (not "processed food" although it's within the category, of course, as is all restaurant food).
A TV dinner (which we got to have when my parents went out) was "convenience food" and so was something like Kraft mac & cheese or a L'Eggo waffle, I suppose (or something like a jarred pasta sauce or boxed mashed potatoes, although we never had either, the former probably because we only had "pasta" when my mother made lasagne or spaghetti, not because she prided herself on her homemade sauces -- as an aside, my mother did an amazing amount of whole food cooking given that I now know she dislikes cooking). Was canned soup in this category? Probably, but not sure -- I probably would have thought of it as anything that just needed to be heated up after being purchased.
Candy and stuff was junk food (but homemade sweets, even with a similar nutrient profile, wouldn't be called that, which seems unfair, but also wise, as you don't tell grandma she's baking "junk."
"Processed food" was too broad to be used to characterize food and I don't recall it being used as such, but if you'd asked me what it was, it would have included yogurt, cheese, bread, anything baked with flour, ketchup, mustard, salad dressings (my parents were into the hidden valley packets that you had to mix with something or other, back in the day, all kinds of cereals including plain oatmeal, rice, the horrible canned vegetables we ate much of the year, ground beef, smoked salmon (my dad smoked it himself), so on. That's the way I grew up thinking of it. Don't know when "processed food" started being used to mean just some subset or "convenience foods and fast food" or whatever it now means.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
But most people translate this as "it's not eating ANY processed foods." Also, for the obsessives like me (and although I didn't call it "clean eating," when I was into something similar of my own making, I was obsessive), as close to nature form as possible isn't much of an out. Is cheese (good artisan cheese) as close to its natural form as possible? Obviously not, as you could drink raw milk or something. Is cheese therefore not clean? Some clean eaters think so, some do not, but to the extent it's about avoiding processed as much as possible it's obviously not, IMO.
Flour -- as minimally processed as possible or not? What if I got a handmill like someone in a book I've read did? What if I knew the mill owner and it was some craft thing -- and one issue with all this junk is that it very quickly becomes a hobby for those with money to spend and who want to feel better about themselves for buying things that most of the country cannot afford. But if we accept that flour and cane sugar is as minimally processed as possible (for what they are) or, heck, used honey instead of sugar, you can make pretty much any high cal thing out there (I am assuming butter is okay under the same principle).
And the nutritional benefit is not from avoiding flavored greek yogurt but only eating homemade yogurt from raw milk. It's from having a diet that's rich in nutrient dense foods and balanced, which you don't have to eschew processed foods (however illogically defined) to do it.
And I totally know you are not arguing in favor of clean eating here.
One thing that just always gets me is to be lectured about how clean eating is important and the rest of us eat poorly from someone who claims to eat NO processed foods but has Panera and protein powder and a ton of other things more processed than my average meal in her diary. The irony chokes me.
But of course that has not (thank goodness!) happened in this thread yet.
I do think it's important to get at what the person is really after and to help them out, as I said before, but to me part of that is educating on what "processing" really means and because it's such a ridiculous buzz word these days and some seem to really think it means "unhealthy" or "bad," explaining that it's a HUGE category of foods.
I also like to get into how processing and some of the other departures from what is strictly natural allow us today to have access to a much more nutritious diet than we might otherwise. For example, in Chicago there's a huge part of the year when I wouldn't have much fruit or veg or many types of fish, etc., without things like processing and it's close ally, the food industry (that freezes fish and brings it far from home to sell, that carts in produce from warmer climates. Not that this is unalloyed good in every way, but it's certainly not as inherently bad as some seem to think.
Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.
I think people just starting any new process should not be trying to educate others unless it's to point them to a book or website.
What does this mean? Is it supposed to refer to me (what new process am I starting? I'm playing around with decreasing carbs, but that has 0 to do with this topic).
What I am educating about is the meaning of the term "processed" and the fact that a HUGE range of processed foods exist, many of which are quite nutrient dense and not high cal. This is in part to counter constant misinformation (including some in this thread) that processed foods are inherently high cal, junk, full of sodium and sugar and fat, etc.That's true, for me, whether we're talking about diet, religion, computer programming, or most other things.
Hmm. Not on MFP, of course, but if someone made misinformed statements about my religion I hope I would politely and nicely correct them without trying to convert them, of course. If someone makes false statements about something else I know about, I might correct that information too. In general I think false information should be corrected.
Beyond that, I do think understanding what processed food is, that it is extremely varied and not some terrible scourge that makes us fat, understanding nutrition (and that it's not a matter of avoiding processed foods but of what you include in your diet), stuff like that, is useful and factual.It does help when newbies come asking rather than telling. I've come across people in places not MFP who say they eat 3 bananas a day and swear they're keto. You're right in that processed means different things to different people. I'm not sure what the answer is other than coming to an agreed upon definition of specific diet plans.
Processed has an actual meaning, though. People usually just haven't thought it through (often because what they personally eat is more limited and is both processed and often too high in calories to nutrition for the amount of room it takes up in their diet). IMO, pointing out that processing is not the issue is part of answering the usual question: how do I eat better?
For example, I personally think that for someone who wants to lose weight and improve nutrition OFTEN increasing protein (especially lean protein) and vegetables and fruit and perhaps fiber from other sources (depending on whether they are cutting carbs or not, as that mostly applies to people eating more grains/legumes) is a good choice. It makes little difference whether these are from processed sources (canned beans, even a frozen veg mix that comes with a sauce, the rice and beans with veg I mentioned, or even a really healthy frozen meal option) or non processed, so if someone has barriers to the less processed options (living in a dorm room, or perhaps not yet a cook or hates it, time requires some convenience foods, whatever), so IMO it is actually really helpful and NOT obnoxious to point out it's not really about processed foods vs. not.
I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, just in general. I'm not going to tell a bunch of vegans they should eat meat if I really don't know what vegan means (I know what vegan means, just an example). I was trying to make the point that it would be helpful if newbies come here asking, rather than telling people. I've not called anyone obnoxious or anything else, I was just considering a way to make these conversations flow a little easier. This is just a different variation to the other "what should I eat" threads that go on for pages with no one really getting anywhere. To me, its not that hard to understand what someone means when they say processed. I don't look at everyone's diaries, so I admit I may not have all of the information but when someone says processed I presume they're talking about things like Rice a Roni rather than a bag of rice. I understand both are processed, but one has additives and extra ingredients whereas the other is just rice. Maybe its because I've known people who've had reactions to those types of additives? Who knows. In any case I feel like this carousel has gone around enough times, apologies if I caused any confusion.1 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
But most people translate this as "it's not eating ANY processed foods." Also, for the obsessives like me (and although I didn't call it "clean eating," when I was into something similar of my own making, I was obsessive), as close to nature form as possible isn't much of an out. Is cheese (good artisan cheese) as close to its natural form as possible? Obviously not, as you could drink raw milk or something. Is cheese therefore not clean? Some clean eaters think so, some do not, but to the extent it's about avoiding processed as much as possible it's obviously not, IMO.
Flour -- as minimally processed as possible or not? What if I got a handmill like someone in a book I've read did? What if I knew the mill owner and it was some craft thing -- and one issue with all this junk is that it very quickly becomes a hobby for those with money to spend and who want to feel better about themselves for buying things that most of the country cannot afford. But if we accept that flour and cane sugar is as minimally processed as possible (for what they are) or, heck, used honey instead of sugar, you can make pretty much any high cal thing out there (I am assuming butter is okay under the same principle).
And the nutritional benefit is not from avoiding flavored greek yogurt but only eating homemade yogurt from raw milk. It's from having a diet that's rich in nutrient dense foods and balanced, which you don't have to eschew processed foods (however illogically defined) to do it.
And I totally know you are not arguing in favor of clean eating here.
One thing that just always gets me is to be lectured about how clean eating is important and the rest of us eat poorly from someone who claims to eat NO processed foods but has Panera and protein powder and a ton of other things more processed than my average meal in her diary. The irony chokes me.
But of course that has not (thank goodness!) happened in this thread yet.
I do think it's important to get at what the person is really after and to help them out, as I said before, but to me part of that is educating on what "processing" really means and because it's such a ridiculous buzz word these days and some seem to really think it means "unhealthy" or "bad," explaining that it's a HUGE category of foods.
I also like to get into how processing and some of the other departures from what is strictly natural allow us today to have access to a much more nutritious diet than we might otherwise. For example, in Chicago there's a huge part of the year when I wouldn't have much fruit or veg or many types of fish, etc., without things like processing and it's close ally, the food industry (that freezes fish and brings it far from home to sell, that carts in produce from warmer climates. Not that this is unalloyed good in every way, but it's certainly not as inherently bad as some seem to think.
Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.
I think people just starting any new process should not be trying to educate others unless it's to point them to a book or website.
What does this mean? Is it supposed to refer to me (what new process am I starting? I'm playing around with decreasing carbs, but that has 0 to do with this topic).
What I am educating about is the meaning of the term "processed" and the fact that a HUGE range of processed foods exist, many of which are quite nutrient dense and not high cal. This is in part to counter constant misinformation (including some in this thread) that processed foods are inherently high cal, junk, full of sodium and sugar and fat, etc.That's true, for me, whether we're talking about diet, religion, computer programming, or most other things.
Hmm. Not on MFP, of course, but if someone made misinformed statements about my religion I hope I would politely and nicely correct them without trying to convert them, of course. If someone makes false statements about something else I know about, I might correct that information too. In general I think false information should be corrected.
Beyond that, I do think understanding what processed food is, that it is extremely varied and not some terrible scourge that makes us fat, understanding nutrition (and that it's not a matter of avoiding processed foods but of what you include in your diet), stuff like that, is useful and factual.It does help when newbies come asking rather than telling. I've come across people in places not MFP who say they eat 3 bananas a day and swear they're keto. You're right in that processed means different things to different people. I'm not sure what the answer is other than coming to an agreed upon definition of specific diet plans.
Processed has an actual meaning, though. People usually just haven't thought it through (often because what they personally eat is more limited and is both processed and often too high in calories to nutrition for the amount of room it takes up in their diet). IMO, pointing out that processing is not the issue is part of answering the usual question: how do I eat better?
For example, I personally think that for someone who wants to lose weight and improve nutrition OFTEN increasing protein (especially lean protein) and vegetables and fruit and perhaps fiber from other sources (depending on whether they are cutting carbs or not, as that mostly applies to people eating more grains/legumes) is a good choice. It makes little difference whether these are from processed sources (canned beans, even a frozen veg mix that comes with a sauce, the rice and beans with veg I mentioned, or even a really healthy frozen meal option) or non processed, so if someone has barriers to the less processed options (living in a dorm room, or perhaps not yet a cook or hates it, time requires some convenience foods, whatever), so IMO it is actually really helpful and NOT obnoxious to point out it's not really about processed foods vs. not.
I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, just in general. I'm not going to tell a bunch of vegans they should eat meat if I really don't know what vegan means (I know what vegan means, just an example). I was trying to make the point that it would be helpful if newbies come here asking, rather than telling people. I've not called anyone obnoxious or anything else, I was just considering a way to make these conversations flow a little easier. This is just a different variation to the other "what should I eat" threads that go on for pages with no one really getting anywhere. To me, its not that hard to understand what someone means when they say processed. I don't look at everyone's diaries, so I admit I may not have all of the information but when someone says processed I presume they're talking about things like Rice a Roni rather than a bag of rice. I understand both are processed, but one has additives and extra ingredients whereas the other is just rice. Maybe its because I've known people who've had reactions to those types of additives? Who knows. In any case I feel like this carousel has gone around enough times, apologies if I caused any confusion.
I think it is reasonable to expect that people offering advice are offering it from a place of knowledge. But someone could just be starting something (or maybe even never done it) and still have useful information to share due to their research.
You don't have to be vegan to answer a question like (for example) "I need more B12, what is a good source of B12 for vegans?" One could easily learn that information from research even if they were not ever interested in trying veganism themselves.
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
But most people translate this as "it's not eating ANY processed foods." Also, for the obsessives like me (and although I didn't call it "clean eating," when I was into something similar of my own making, I was obsessive), as close to nature form as possible isn't much of an out. Is cheese (good artisan cheese) as close to its natural form as possible? Obviously not, as you could drink raw milk or something. Is cheese therefore not clean? Some clean eaters think so, some do not, but to the extent it's about avoiding processed as much as possible it's obviously not, IMO.
Flour -- as minimally processed as possible or not? What if I got a handmill like someone in a book I've read did? What if I knew the mill owner and it was some craft thing -- and one issue with all this junk is that it very quickly becomes a hobby for those with money to spend and who want to feel better about themselves for buying things that most of the country cannot afford. But if we accept that flour and cane sugar is as minimally processed as possible (for what they are) or, heck, used honey instead of sugar, you can make pretty much any high cal thing out there (I am assuming butter is okay under the same principle).
And the nutritional benefit is not from avoiding flavored greek yogurt but only eating homemade yogurt from raw milk. It's from having a diet that's rich in nutrient dense foods and balanced, which you don't have to eschew processed foods (however illogically defined) to do it.
And I totally know you are not arguing in favor of clean eating here.
One thing that just always gets me is to be lectured about how clean eating is important and the rest of us eat poorly from someone who claims to eat NO processed foods but has Panera and protein powder and a ton of other things more processed than my average meal in her diary. The irony chokes me.
But of course that has not (thank goodness!) happened in this thread yet.
I do think it's important to get at what the person is really after and to help them out, as I said before, but to me part of that is educating on what "processing" really means and because it's such a ridiculous buzz word these days and some seem to really think it means "unhealthy" or "bad," explaining that it's a HUGE category of foods.
I also like to get into how processing and some of the other departures from what is strictly natural allow us today to have access to a much more nutritious diet than we might otherwise. For example, in Chicago there's a huge part of the year when I wouldn't have much fruit or veg or many types of fish, etc., without things like processing and it's close ally, the food industry (that freezes fish and brings it far from home to sell, that carts in produce from warmer climates. Not that this is unalloyed good in every way, but it's certainly not as inherently bad as some seem to think.
Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.
I think people just starting any new process should not be trying to educate others unless it's to point them to a book or website.
What does this mean? Is it supposed to refer to me (what new process am I starting? I'm playing around with decreasing carbs, but that has 0 to do with this topic).
What I am educating about is the meaning of the term "processed" and the fact that a HUGE range of processed foods exist, many of which are quite nutrient dense and not high cal. This is in part to counter constant misinformation (including some in this thread) that processed foods are inherently high cal, junk, full of sodium and sugar and fat, etc.That's true, for me, whether we're talking about diet, religion, computer programming, or most other things.
Hmm. Not on MFP, of course, but if someone made misinformed statements about my religion I hope I would politely and nicely correct them without trying to convert them, of course. If someone makes false statements about something else I know about, I might correct that information too. In general I think false information should be corrected.
Beyond that, I do think understanding what processed food is, that it is extremely varied and not some terrible scourge that makes us fat, understanding nutrition (and that it's not a matter of avoiding processed foods but of what you include in your diet), stuff like that, is useful and factual.It does help when newbies come asking rather than telling. I've come across people in places not MFP who say they eat 3 bananas a day and swear they're keto. You're right in that processed means different things to different people. I'm not sure what the answer is other than coming to an agreed upon definition of specific diet plans.
Processed has an actual meaning, though. People usually just haven't thought it through (often because what they personally eat is more limited and is both processed and often too high in calories to nutrition for the amount of room it takes up in their diet). IMO, pointing out that processing is not the issue is part of answering the usual question: how do I eat better?
For example, I personally think that for someone who wants to lose weight and improve nutrition OFTEN increasing protein (especially lean protein) and vegetables and fruit and perhaps fiber from other sources (depending on whether they are cutting carbs or not, as that mostly applies to people eating more grains/legumes) is a good choice. It makes little difference whether these are from processed sources (canned beans, even a frozen veg mix that comes with a sauce, the rice and beans with veg I mentioned, or even a really healthy frozen meal option) or non processed, so if someone has barriers to the less processed options (living in a dorm room, or perhaps not yet a cook or hates it, time requires some convenience foods, whatever), so IMO it is actually really helpful and NOT obnoxious to point out it's not really about processed foods vs. not.
I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, just in general. I'm not going to tell a bunch of vegans they should eat meat if I really don't know what vegan means (I know what vegan means, just an example).
But again, it's NOT that we don't know what clean means. It's that it has no consistent meaning. If OP were asking "how do I eat clean" I'd ask her definition, but here SHE asked what we considered eating clean, so she opened the discussion.
She ALSO used "processed" (which seems to be what you are bothered by people commenting on? I'm honestly not sure why you have an issue with my posts or anyone else's posts in this thread, although I am trying to understand). I definitely know what processed means. It has a meaning, just as vegan does.
If OP said "I am doing an experiment where I'm cutting out processed foods and want to know how you deal with X" I'd comment (helpfully, I hope) on that. (I read a book about someone doing such an experiment, it was interesting. I like weird eating experiments. I'm also into locavore experiments and pretending like one is in the 18th c and all sorts of things.) But here OP seemed specifically interested in weight loss and eating nutritiously, and had a hurdle in that she lives in a dorm room, so it was IMO important to point out that "processed" doesn't mean bad or not nutritious and that for me nutrition is more significant than processing.I've not called anyone obnoxious or anything else, I was just considering a way to make these conversations flow a little easier.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought I was answering your questions and then you seemed to be taking issue with my posts for a reason I didn't understand. This is the exchange that I was reacting to, btw:
Me: Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad [referring to my post early in the thread about the huge variety of processed foods available]. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.
You: I think people just starting any new process should not be trying to educate others unless it's to point them to a book or website.
So if I totally misinterpreted in thinking your comment was directed at me and saying my earlier post was somehow offensive to you, oops. ;-) If not, I am still interested in why or how you think it could be improved.To me, its not that hard to understand what someone means when they say processed. I don't look at everyone's diaries, so I admit I may not have all of the information but when someone says processed I presume they're talking about things like Rice a Roni rather than a bag of rice.
I don't, since rice IS processed and I think of it that way. When someone says "do you eat processed foods" I would never say no (even though I eat about as many as those who claim not to, usually), because of course I do, including things like olive oil. It feels like lying to me when people say they do not (or, like OP, that they are just confusing or not communicating what they mean, so I certainly don't assume they are lying, don't mean to say that). Did my post above about how we described these things growing up maybe help?
I think it might be partly an age thing (maybe?), and partly that I did grow up eating mostly whole foods but also some processed foods, of course (and a good bit of produce out of season frozen or canned), so the ultraprocessed foods people speak of never really cross my mind as the obvious things they would mean. (I recall being surprised when I first realized people actually eat boxed mashed potatoes. So, perhaps, sheltered, LOL.)I understand both are processed, but one has additives and extra ingredients whereas the other is just rice. Maybe its because I've known people who've had reactions to those types of additives? Who knows. In any case I feel like this carousel has gone around enough times, apologies if I caused any confusion.
I DO think they are different, that's why it frustrates me to use the same word that refers to both when something much more specific is meant. That's kind of my point in saying that processed is a HUGE and DIVERSE category.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
Which is why I refuse to use the word "processed". It is almost as meaningless as "clean". When I am referring to foods such as frozen dinners, take-out, canned soups, boxes of Mac and Cheese, etc. I prefer to use the word "convenience foods". Most people know what I mean and I am able to make my point without going around and around.
I rarely eat convenience foods. Why? I live alone and make a lot of 1 dish meals in my crock pot with 4-6 servings so I usually have leftovers. I also freeze a few servings so I have something to eat in a pinch. These meals often have processed foods in them, but not necessarily convenience foods. I am NOT going to peel and cut up a bunch of tomatoes when I can just dump a can of no salt added diced tomatoes (which is processed). many of my veggies are frozen bagged veggies.
I encourage people to eat as much nutrient dense whole food as works for them, but don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.
You know, that's a really good point, and helps explain my confusion.
Growing up, McDonald's was "fast food" (not "processed food" although it's within the category, of course, as is all restaurant food).
A TV dinner (which we got to have when my parents went out) was "convenience food" and so was something like Kraft mac & cheese or a L'Eggo waffle, I suppose (or something like a jarred pasta sauce or boxed mashed potatoes, although we never had either, the former probably because we only had "pasta" when my mother made lasagne or spaghetti, not because she prided herself on her homemade sauces -- as an aside, my mother did an amazing amount of whole food cooking given that I now know she dislikes cooking). Was canned soup in this category? Probably, but not sure -- I probably would have thought of it as anything that just needed to be heated up after being purchased.
Candy and stuff was junk food (but homemade sweets, even with a similar nutrient profile, wouldn't be called that, which seems unfair, but also wise, as you don't tell grandma she's baking "junk."
"Processed food" was too broad to be used to characterize food and I don't recall it being used as such, but if you'd asked me what it was, it would have included yogurt, cheese, bread, anything baked with flour, ketchup, mustard, salad dressings (my parents were into the hidden valley packets that you had to mix with something or other, back in the day, all kinds of cereals including plain oatmeal, rice, the horrible canned vegetables we ate much of the year, ground beef, smoked salmon (my dad smoked it himself), so on. That's the way I grew up thinking of it. Don't know when "processed food" started being used to mean just some subset or "convenience foods and fast food" or whatever it now means.
My mom worked full time (a teacher) which was unusual in the 60's but she made dinner almost every night. She would give Sandra Lee a run for her money in the semi-homemade category. Chop Suey was browned meat mixed with canned Chinese vegetables. Spaghetti sauce was jarred with meat added. Some nights we would have pancakes and sausage or bacon or she would fry up something like pork chops. We only had TV dinners when we would get a babysitter because my parents were going out and it was a treat because we each got to pick out our own. We ate well and balanced, just not fancy: meat, veggies, starch.
2 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Typical convenient foods I have now.
Granola bars that are peanut butter kinds, seems to fill me better, I love Luna.
Precooked udon noodles for spaghetti or stir fry.
Uncle Ben's ready rice.
Spaghetti or light Alfredo sauces, or Kikkomans sauce. I always add a serving of vegetable and low fat meat to a sauce and noodle/rice. I usually try to only use half the sauce due to sodium levels.
Light string cheese
Fruit, any kind.
I eat a lot of processed things but by adding quality meat, vegetable and fruit throughout the day I feel I am getting in good nutrients as well.
I am a working mother of 2 kids juggling job, homework, bath/bed routines, and working out 6 days a week. I only cook usually on the weekend and one or two nights during the week.
This sounds a lot like me. I love to cook, but as a busy working mom of two, I rely on a lot of convenience things to help me get dinner on the table. That doesn't mean they are inherently unhealthy or I'm eating nothing but Doritos and Doughnits. But a skillet meal to which I add extra chicken and vegetables, or a jarred stir fry sauce, or even the dreaded Hamburger Helper is something that I think can be incorporated into an overall balanced diet and isn't taking away from my health and nutrition simply because it's processed or comes in a box.
Do you ever use Sandra Lee recipes? I like her, she has great shortcut recipe ideas for busy people.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/cool-couscous-salad-recipe
You know, I love the concept of it. I just find her, and her show that used to be on Food Network (not sure if it is still is) just so annoying. All the "tablescape" nonsense - ain't nobody got time for that!
But yes, I would say that that's a lot of how I cook - using something that comes in a jar but then adding to it myself. And honestly, I know a lot of people say "but making it from scratch tastes so much better" and for certain things I do think that's true, but I get things like William-Sonoma simmer sauces and they are freaking delicious and I don't know if I could actually replicate that same flavor and consistency, not without spending several hours in the kitchen.2 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Typical convenient foods I have now.
Granola bars that are peanut butter kinds, seems to fill me better, I love Luna.
Precooked udon noodles for spaghetti or stir fry.
Uncle Ben's ready rice.
Spaghetti or light Alfredo sauces, or Kikkomans sauce. I always add a serving of vegetable and low fat meat to a sauce and noodle/rice. I usually try to only use half the sauce due to sodium levels.
Light string cheese
Fruit, any kind.
I eat a lot of processed things but by adding quality meat, vegetable and fruit throughout the day I feel I am getting in good nutrients as well.
I am a working mother of 2 kids juggling job, homework, bath/bed routines, and working out 6 days a week. I only cook usually on the weekend and one or two nights during the week.
This sounds a lot like me. I love to cook, but as a busy working mom of two, I rely on a lot of convenience things to help me get dinner on the table. That doesn't mean they are inherently unhealthy or I'm eating nothing but Doritos and Doughnits. But a skillet meal to which I add extra chicken and vegetables, or a jarred stir fry sauce, or even the dreaded Hamburger Helper is something that I think can be incorporated into an overall balanced diet and isn't taking away from my health and nutrition simply because it's processed or comes in a box.
Do you ever use Sandra Lee recipes? I like her, she has great shortcut recipe ideas for busy people.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/cool-couscous-salad-recipe
You know, I love the concept of it. I just find her, and her show that used to be on Food Network (not sure if it is still is) just so annoying. All the "tablescape" nonsense - ain't nobody got time for that!
But yes, I would say that that's a lot of how I cook - using something that comes in a jar but then adding to it myself. And honestly, I know a lot of people say "but making it from scratch tastes so much better" and for certain things I do think that's true, but I get things like William-Sonoma simmer sauces and they are freaking delicious and I don't know if I could actually replicate that same flavor and consistency, not without spending several hours in the kitchen.
A-freakin-men! Plus she was way too perky for my taste. I'm a firm believer in shortcuts where you can, though! Time definitely figures into the cost/benefit ratio for cooking.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
Which is why I refuse to use the word "processed". It is almost as meaningless as "clean". When I am referring to foods such as frozen dinners, take-out, canned soups, boxes of Mac and Cheese, etc. I prefer to use the word "convenience foods". Most people know what I mean and I am able to make my point without going around and around.
I rarely eat convenience foods. Why? I live alone and make a lot of 1 dish meals in my crock pot with 4-6 servings so I usually have leftovers. I also freeze a few servings so I have something to eat in a pinch. These meals often have processed foods in them, but not necessarily convenience foods. I am NOT going to peel and cut up a bunch of tomatoes when I can just dump a can of no salt added diced tomatoes (which is processed). many of my veggies are frozen bagged veggies.
I encourage people to eat as much nutrient dense whole food as works for them, but don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.
You know, that's a really good point, and helps explain my confusion.
Growing up, McDonald's was "fast food" (not "processed food" although it's within the category, of course, as is all restaurant food).
A TV dinner (which we got to have when my parents went out) was "convenience food" and so was something like Kraft mac & cheese or a L'Eggo waffle, I suppose (or something like a jarred pasta sauce or boxed mashed potatoes, although we never had either, the former probably because we only had "pasta" when my mother made lasagne or spaghetti, not because she prided herself on her homemade sauces -- as an aside, my mother did an amazing amount of whole food cooking given that I now know she dislikes cooking). Was canned soup in this category? Probably, but not sure -- I probably would have thought of it as anything that just needed to be heated up after being purchased.
Candy and stuff was junk food (but homemade sweets, even with a similar nutrient profile, wouldn't be called that, which seems unfair, but also wise, as you don't tell grandma she's baking "junk."
"Processed food" was too broad to be used to characterize food and I don't recall it being used as such, but if you'd asked me what it was, it would have included yogurt, cheese, bread, anything baked with flour, ketchup, mustard, salad dressings (my parents were into the hidden valley packets that you had to mix with something or other, back in the day, all kinds of cereals including plain oatmeal, rice, the horrible canned vegetables we ate much of the year, ground beef, smoked salmon (my dad smoked it himself), so on. That's the way I grew up thinking of it. Don't know when "processed food" started being used to mean just some subset or "convenience foods and fast food" or whatever it now means.
My mom worked full time (a teacher) which was unusual in the 60's but she made dinner almost every night. She would give Sandra Lee a run for her money in the semi-homemade category. Chop Suey was browned meat mixed with canned Chinese vegetables. Spaghetti sauce was jarred with meat added. Some nights we would have pancakes and sausage or bacon or she would fry up something like pork chops. We only had TV dinners when we would get a babysitter because my parents were going out and it was a treat because we each got to pick out our own. We ate well and balanced, just not fancy: meat, veggies, starch.
When I was a single parent, working full-time, I made everything myself but it's as you say, some of it wasn't "home-made" at all...jarred sauces, for instance. But we almost never had to go to McD's or anything like that. I got home, sauteed a protein with some veggies while my son was doing homework, or popped some chicken or chops in the oven with something or other poured over them and a bunch of veggies scattered around the dish and then did my thing.
There's sort of a misconception (I'm not sure why, surely people have seen other people actually cook, just basic cooking, not chef quality?) that cooking "takes a lot of time" like it's constant hands-on time or something. I mean if you put a roast into the oven for 70 minutes, all you're doing DURING those 70 minutes is checking back every 15 or so to make sure nothing's burning or has caught fire or that aliens haven't stolen it from the oven or something. I get that this can mean a later eating time for some people, but as I said, there are much, much quicker things to make. And these don't take hands-on time either, really. Pasta with a red sauce - you put the pasta into the boiling water, come back to stir every 5 for 12 minutes or so, big deal. You put a low fire under the sauce, cover it, walk away. Want it to be a bolognese? Brown some meat in a frying pan in the middle of all this. You could be Tweeting, FBing, talking to your kids, taking a pee, doing anything during that time, because meat's gonna brown if a fire is under it and all you have to do is stir it up a couple/few times.
I don't know...I think the whole "picking up fast food is faster" thing is so bogus considering you have to go there, wait for your order, and get home, which can easily take way more than 20 minutes or so, I think that's more habit and wanting the hyper-taste of the salty, fat food than it being an actual time saver. At the same time it's true that not all "I made it myself" stuff is low-calorie and/or healthy per one's specific health parameters. I think we have all just gotten into certain habits...food trends come and go, and eating styles...this isn't new, it's been true all throughout history, it's just that we've never historically had so many convenience foods as readily available as we do today, to the point that we almost assume that if we have ANYTHING going on at all, we must be "too busy to cook" so let's grab-and-go.
Not a judgment. I'm no stellar star in the floating flag of food health. Want to eat convenience foods? Count the macros, grab something. I was at McD's unwillingly (LOL) the other day (well, it was my final decision, it's just that I don't really like the place so much) and I got a grilled chicken club on lettuce and a yogurt parfait, didn't eat the granola...well within my macros...done.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
Processed food, no -- processed food is a huge category, again. The specific processed foods that you have been choosing? Maybe. I think what we eat affects what we crave and also many highly processed (ultra refined) convenience foods tend to be really easy to overeat for many, more so if you do things like eating them out of the box rather than measuring out servings.
Which is why I refuse to use the word "processed". It is almost as meaningless as "clean". When I am referring to foods such as frozen dinners, take-out, canned soups, boxes of Mac and Cheese, etc. I prefer to use the word "convenience foods". Most people know what I mean and I am able to make my point without going around and around.
I rarely eat convenience foods. Why? I live alone and make a lot of 1 dish meals in my crock pot with 4-6 servings so I usually have leftovers. I also freeze a few servings so I have something to eat in a pinch. These meals often have processed foods in them, but not necessarily convenience foods. I am NOT going to peel and cut up a bunch of tomatoes when I can just dump a can of no salt added diced tomatoes (which is processed). many of my veggies are frozen bagged veggies.
I encourage people to eat as much nutrient dense whole food as works for them, but don't sweat the small stuff. Life is too short.
You know, that's a really good point, and helps explain my confusion.
Growing up, McDonald's was "fast food" (not "processed food" although it's within the category, of course, as is all restaurant food).
A TV dinner (which we got to have when my parents went out) was "convenience food" and so was something like Kraft mac & cheese or a L'Eggo waffle, I suppose (or something like a jarred pasta sauce or boxed mashed potatoes, although we never had either, the former probably because we only had "pasta" when my mother made lasagne or spaghetti, not because she prided herself on her homemade sauces -- as an aside, my mother did an amazing amount of whole food cooking given that I now know she dislikes cooking). Was canned soup in this category? Probably, but not sure -- I probably would have thought of it as anything that just needed to be heated up after being purchased.
Candy and stuff was junk food (but homemade sweets, even with a similar nutrient profile, wouldn't be called that, which seems unfair, but also wise, as you don't tell grandma she's baking "junk."
"Processed food" was too broad to be used to characterize food and I don't recall it being used as such, but if you'd asked me what it was, it would have included yogurt, cheese, bread, anything baked with flour, ketchup, mustard, salad dressings (my parents were into the hidden valley packets that you had to mix with something or other, back in the day, all kinds of cereals including plain oatmeal, rice, the horrible canned vegetables we ate much of the year, ground beef, smoked salmon (my dad smoked it himself), so on. That's the way I grew up thinking of it. Don't know when "processed food" started being used to mean just some subset or "convenience foods and fast food" or whatever it now means.
My mom worked full time (a teacher) which was unusual in the 60's but she made dinner almost every night. She would give Sandra Lee a run for her money in the semi-homemade category. Chop Suey was browned meat mixed with canned Chinese vegetables. Spaghetti sauce was jarred with meat added. Some nights we would have pancakes and sausage or bacon or she would fry up something like pork chops. We only had TV dinners when we would get a babysitter because my parents were going out and it was a treat because we each got to pick out our own. We ate well and balanced, just not fancy: meat, veggies, starch.
When I was a single parent, working full-time, I made everything myself but it's as you say, some of it wasn't "home-made" at all...jarred sauces, for instance. But we almost never had to go to McD's or anything like that. I got home, sauteed a protein with some veggies while my son was doing homework, or popped some chicken or chops in the oven with something or other poured over them and a bunch of veggies scattered around the dish and then did my thing.
There's sort of a misconception (I'm not sure why, surely people have seen other people actually cook, just basic cooking, not chef quality?) that cooking "takes a lot of time" like it's constant hands-on time or something. I mean if you put a roast into the oven for 70 minutes, all you're doing DURING those 70 minutes is checking back every 15 or so to make sure nothing's burning or has caught fire or that aliens haven't stolen it from the oven or something. I get that this can mean a later eating time for some people, but as I said, there are much, much quicker things to make. And these don't take hands-on time either, really. Pasta with a red sauce - you put the pasta into the boiling water, come back to stir every 5 for 12 minutes or so, big deal. You put a low fire under the sauce, cover it, walk away. Want it to be a bolognese? Brown some meat in a frying pan in the middle of all this. You could be Tweeting, FBing, talking to your kids, taking a pee, doing anything during that time, because meat's gonna brown if a fire is under it and all you have to do is stir it up a couple/few times.
I don't know...I think the whole "picking up fast food is faster" thing is so bogus considering you have to go there, wait for your order, and get home, which can easily take way more than 20 minutes or so, I think that's more habit and wanting the hyper-taste of the salty, fat food than it being an actual time saver. At the same time it's true that not all "I made it myself" stuff is low-calorie and/or healthy per one's specific health parameters. I think we have all just gotten into certain habits...food trends come and go, and eating styles...this isn't new, it's been true all throughout history, it's just that we've never historically had so many convenience foods as readily available as we do today, to the point that we almost assume that if we have ANYTHING going on at all, we must be "too busy to cook" so let's grab-and-go.
Not a judgment. I'm no stellar star in the floating flag of food health. Want to eat convenience foods? Count the macros, grab something. I was at McD's unwillingly (LOL) the other day (well, it was my final decision, it's just that I don't really like the place so much) and I got a grilled chicken club on lettuce and a yogurt parfait, didn't eat the granola...well within my macros...done.
I agree. I do a lot in my crock pot. Dump stuff in either that morning or the night before, put it on, and I have a great dinner ready for me. My one dish meals are usually a protein, veggies, seasonings, maybe broth, maybe a sauce and I may add rice at the end to soak up the juices. I will go though a drive through on occasion and I eat out Monday nights when I play Pub Trivia. The bar has decent salads and every once in a while I need MEAT so I get a burger but substitute a side salad for the tater tots. Works, fits my macros, and I enjoy myself.1
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