Question for others who also have issues with moderation
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I can moderate broccoli, cookies not so much. Even crappy ones. For me it's sugar, eating a little makes we want a lot more. I only eat cookies, ice cream, or other sweets out as a treat. You can't really order seconds or thirds on dessert without looking like a glutton. I keeps lots of fruit at home to satisfy my sweet tooth.
But fruit has sugar in it...
Which suggests that the difficulty in moderating is not specifically sugar.
What most people seem to have trouble moderating (because so tasty) is combinations: sugar/fat (cookies, ice cream, and other common treats are wrongly called carbs, as they are half fat too), and carbs/fat/salt (french fries, chips, mashed potato with butter, fried chicken, naan dipped in curry, pizza, burgers, etc. -- obviously some of these have protein too). Even fat/salt is tough for some of us, as I could overeat cheese and olives, and find those harder to moderate than many sweets (I can also overeat creamed spinach, easily). And contrary to popular claims, I see people eat immoderate amounts of steak quite often (protein + fat + salt, maybe), and I bet people exist who will overeat bacon.
One of my first jobs was in a kitchen in a nursing home working morning shift. We could eat all the bacon we wanted to. I did. It was like eating potato chips.2 -
Tropicoolblonde wrote: »Maybe I'm a minority.. but if I want something I have it with reckless abandon. I will move calories and exercise extra to be able to get my fix. Say I want to eat half a tub of cookie dough one day? Then that will be my days worth of calories ( maybe more like half my daily calories after exercise) and after I have it I don't want it anymore and the craving is gone for good ( usually for weeks or more) and I go back to eating healthy and clean. Or some days I want pizza ( and not just one slice) so I will eat an entire small pizza with a liter of Diet Coke and then just eat a fruit for breakfast and frozen veggies for the other meal to make room in my calories for it. This has saved me so many times from going over calories. I'm lucky that I exercise for hours so I can eat gross 2800 calories a day on my long run days and still lose (1-2lb per week).. so I can fit those calories to begin with, but I give up on eating "healthy" that day as well to make it happen. Worth it. YOLO
Unfortunately it doesn't work for me because I'm always so hungry
I did manage to get away with having a tub of rice pudding for lunch last week, but it's very rare that I can do something like that and still stick to my calories for the day. And yeah some days I end up with 30k steps or something so I can keep a deficit, lol... but my legs just can't keep that up, and it means I don't really get to do much else all day.
I didn't have this issue until I got close to the middle of the normal BMI range though. Not sure if it's getting old, having a lower body fat %, or hormones being wonky because of 18 months of deficit (although you'd think it would have got better after 3 years if that was the case).
I suppose that it doesn't help my case that 90% of the time, it's sweet stuff I want to indulge on, and that's never as filling as even chips and dip (I did have an avocado and a serving of chips yesterday and that DID fill me up for the 250 calories. 400 calories of cookies? Nope).1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Maybe it's clearer to say some of us have a propensity for sweet tasting foods, whether or not it's mostly made of sugar, fats or carbs.
Others prefer salty tasting foods, it doesn't matter what the macro make up is. It's the flavour sensation we crave.
I don't think it's that it's clearer, it's a different claim. (One I agree with.) Certainly, people's flavor preferences differ.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I don't really recall ever not being faced with the temptation to give in and have more than that which I've determined I 'should' have to stay on track. Is that not normal? I assumed it was normal.
I thought this was normal too lol
I find it can be more or less difficult to deal with, which is what I thought OP was talking about.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »I don't really recall ever not being faced with the temptation to give in and have more than that which I've determined I 'should' have to stay on track. Is that not normal? I assumed it was normal.
I thought this was normal too lol
I find it can be more or less difficult to deal with, which is what I thought OP was talking about.
She can clarify but I took her to be taking issue with just not fully enjoying what she has limited herself to (1 cookie, or whatever) because her mind is already going to wanting to give in and have more.
And I'm not sure this goes away... it hasn't for me. This dissatisfaction seems to me a natural consequence of setting a limit, of determining that there needs to be a limit in the first place - the temptation to break it is inherent.
Only thing that makes it easier for me is getting in the habit of not giving in. But it's still not 'easy' to limit myself, and it's especially difficult to not give in if I had given in recently.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I can moderate broccoli, cookies not so much. Even crappy ones. For me it's sugar, eating a little makes we want a lot more. I only eat cookies, ice cream, or other sweets out as a treat. You can't really order seconds or thirds on dessert without looking like a glutton. I keeps lots of fruit at home to satisfy my sweet tooth.
But fruit has sugar in it...
Which suggests that the difficulty in moderating is not specifically sugar.
What most people seem to have trouble moderating (because so tasty) is combinations: sugar/fat (cookies, ice cream, and other common treats are wrongly called carbs, as they are half fat too), and carbs/fat/salt (french fries, chips, mashed potato with butter, fried chicken, naan dipped in curry, pizza, burgers, etc. -- obviously some of these have protein too). Even fat/salt is tough for some of us, as I could overeat cheese and olives, and find those harder to moderate than many sweets (I can also overeat creamed spinach, easily). And contrary to popular claims, I see people eat immoderate amounts of steak quite often (protein + fat + salt, maybe), and I bet people exist who will overeat bacon.
One of my first jobs was in a kitchen in a nursing home working morning shift. We could eat all the bacon we wanted to. I did. It was like eating potato chips.
wait, you mean people over eat things because they taste good????????????4 -
tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.2 -
<snip>
I didn't have this issue until I got close to the middle of the normal BMI range though. Not sure if it's getting old, having a lower body fat %, or hormones being wonky because of 18 months of deficit (although you'd think it would have got better after 3 years if that was the case).
I suppose that it doesn't help my case that 90% of the time, it's sweet stuff I want to indulge on, and that's never as filling as even chips and dip (I did have an avocado and a serving of chips yesterday and that DID fill me up for the 250 calories. 400 calories of cookies? Nope).
^^this this.
I do believe it is a biological imperative to continue eating especially when in that mid-to-low BMI. I have found the same thing to be true since I've been at this weight. Combine that with a craving and I'm off to the races. I've been at maintenance weight for nearly ten years. I believe it to be the body's natural drive to have a layer of fat and when there is food available, put it in the mouth. Now that I've removed that safety layer of fat, my hunger drive seems higher.
The good thing is that through careful logging I've learned over the years that a few binges a month does not cause me to gain weight. For instance, last month I ate 12,000 calories extra (above my recommended maintenance calories) over the month and did not gain. I didn't exercise any more than usual, my exercise is the same just about every week. I don't know if the statement earlier (by someone...) that you never go over is true, but I've found it doesn't cause me to go permanently off the rails and in fact I need to "carb up" once or twice a week - which puts me over by several hundred. If I don't do that my hill-climbing hike becomes difficult. The rest of the week I stay below 150g carbs by preference.
@lemurcat12 - thanks for your answer above. Not sure I agree still, but that's okay.
It's not really all that important to me, I'll just keep saying, "But I can eat all sugary, or non-sugary stuff in excess: bring it to me!"...not a sugar thread. Yet.
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cmriverside wrote: »@lemurcat12 - thanks for your answer above. Not sure I agree still, but that's okay. It's not really all that important to me, I'll just keep saying, "But I can eat all sugary, or non-sugary stuff in excess: bring it to me!"...not a sugar thread. Yet.
Fair enough. I just feel like I'm being misunderstood, since I am not saying you can't, but I will drop it too. ;-)1 -
I think for most people, what @lemurcat12 is saying is very true. I think very few people will go into the cabinet and binge eat straight sugar (or even fruit). Sugar/starch/fat and/or starch/fat and/or sugar/fat combinations, OTOH, are hard to resist. (as in chocolate bars, ice cream, pastry, cookies, cake, ..., what people refer to as sweet/sugary snacks, but which would be nowhere near as irresistible without the high fat content). Even most of the salty snacks people crave are high fat (potato chips, bacon, ...).2
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tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
Not necessarily due to the keto, but if you don't eat the fat-starch-sugar snacks for a while, you kind of start to forget the taste and the craving. The had Paczki at the Fat Tuesday swing dance, the moment the fatty-starchy-sugary deliciousness hit my tongue, it was like a wonderful euphoric drug (it had been at least a few months since I had had a donut) - I had forgotten how amazing they were. I was eyeing them all night, and kept returning to the table between sets- I couldn't ditch the craving all night. I think I ate ~4 full ones in total (they had been cut into smaller bite size pieces). 1 -
I think for most people, what @lemurcat12 is saying is very true. I think very few people will go into the cabinet and binge eat straight sugar (or even fruit). Sugar/starch/fat and/or starch/fat and/or sugar/fat combinations, OTOH, are hard to resist. (as in chocolate bars, ice cream, pastry, cookies, cake, ..., what people refer to as sweet/sugary snacks, but which would be nowhere near as irresistible without the high fat content). Even most of the salty snacks people crave are high fat (potato chips, bacon, ...).
I have a friend who buys Gummy Bears in Costco sized packages and they are gone in a week. Pure sugar. Same with jelly beans, Peeps, Sour Patch Kids, Popsicles, sherbet, on and on. "Pure sugar" isn't just right-out-of -the-bowl.
Oops. Not a sugar thread.
It's the behavior, not the food.
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Pure sugar is right out of the bowl. I have never grabbed a cup of sugar to munch on.
Gummy bears add a pleasant texture and flavours beyond sugar, and they also fall into the "can't buy it unless I want to eat it all" for me.
Anyway, there are mental and physical components to cravings and overeating. Of course we like sweet things. If it was truly addictive, though, I'd be blowing off work to pawn all my stuff for more gummy bears.1 -
What I mean with "pure sugar" is that there is not any fat, which is the current argument I'm making. Yes, there are other ingredients, but no fat.0
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One other thought: the foods I have a very hard time moderating aren't foods I would say I love. If you asked me my favorite foods, I'd say craft beer, great cheese, awesome pizza. I would never say gummy bears or sour patch kids or all dressed chips. And yet the first set I can eat a reasonable serving of and feel satisfied, while the latter set I will eat to oblivion and want more.
That's why I cut them out, vs. trying to learn to moderate them. They're not my actual favorite things, and I don't miss them if they're not around. I just can't deal with them when they are around. They must get in mah belly.3 -
cmriverside wrote: »I think for most people, what @lemurcat12 is saying is very true. I think very few people will go into the cabinet and binge eat straight sugar (or even fruit). Sugar/starch/fat and/or starch/fat and/or sugar/fat combinations, OTOH, are hard to resist. (as in chocolate bars, ice cream, pastry, cookies, cake, ..., what people refer to as sweet/sugary snacks, but which would be nowhere near as irresistible without the high fat content). Even most of the salty snacks people crave are high fat (potato chips, bacon, ...).
I have a friend who buys Gummy Bears in Costco sized packages and they are gone in a week. Pure sugar. Same with jelly beans, Peeps, Sour Patch Kids, Popsicles, sherbet, on and on. "Pure sugar" isn't just right-out-of -the-bowl.
Oops. Not a sugar thread.
It's the behavior, not the food.
Don't know why I'm feeling defensive, but I need to point out that I have not claimed the food makes you do it. I said something similar about it being behavior driven:lemurcat12 wrote: »For me it's really about habit and context-- I don't feel like I want more if I eat a KitKat normally, but if I let myself snack at all (especially for emotional reasons) it can open the door to me wanting to continue to snack, because it triggers old habits in my brain. What it is I'm eating makes no difference there, it's the context, the snacking -- I find it happens if I grab some nuts midday too, which is when I finally had to decide that for me snacking is a bad idea, and sticking to 3 meals plus dessert is a better plan.
The point about sugar vs. tasty foods that are made with sugar (and more often than not other ingredients too) was precisely that it wasn't a compulsion caused by sugar (as ndj had said "fruit has sugar too," and the person blaming sugar had said that fruit was not an issue), but that it was a reaction to something being tasty.
I think more often than not the tasty things aren't just sugar (but admit this could be a blind spot because none of the just sugar things you mentioned are ones I can see consuming lots of calories of, and I am sure people do). However, as annacole94 mentioned, the issue with those things is not simply that they are sugary (why not just eat sugar then?) but that they are perceived as tasty or, in some cases, you just want to eat and they are convenient.
My point was that moderation is not a problem just with sweet things, lots of people have issues with all kinds of savory things, and few people have equal issues with all sweet things. Saying "it's sugar" is not correct, IMO.
If you think taste has NOTHING to do with it, then we do disagree -- I think hedonic eating is a thing that people struggle with, not just actual hunger or habit. But it's tricky since it all gets mixed up too.0 -
tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
That's just how the body reacts, for a lot of people. Eating can be addictive because it's unmistakably a pleasure, a reward. Where there's a reward/pleasure, there's possible addiction.
Food items can directly affect the brain chemistry which is biological. Take for example alcohol, which is quite a popular food item. Alcohol acts like a psychotic drug to the body. Lots of people crave that relaxing feeling from it, Not necessarily behavioral/psychological effects. Coffee is another good example.1 -
I think for most people, what @lemurcat12 is saying is very true. I think very few people will go into the cabinet and binge eat straight sugar (or even fruit). Sugar/starch/fat and/or starch/fat and/or sugar/fat combinations, OTOH, are hard to resist. (as in chocolate bars, ice cream, pastry, cookies, cake, ..., what people refer to as sweet/sugary snacks, but which would be nowhere near as irresistible without the high fat content). Even most of the salty snacks people crave are high fat (potato chips, bacon, ...).
I've been watching several of the 10,000 calories challenges on YouTube and all the participants experience the same. They have tremendous difficulty hitting the 10k mark just with sweets or salty foods, but combine and switch to keep feeding. This is where the science/art of hyperpalatable foods comes in to play.1 -
Lemur, all that explanation was after the statement that I have issue with. The "most people binge on combination fat/sugar foods."
Yes, it is more common to binge on those because we naturally want to balance out those macros and they are tasty. But there is an alternative binge. Like I said, I have eaten a half cup of sugar out of the bowl. It depends on what I have in the house. Now I just have to stop myself from doing that - and I still will eat a pound of grapes in one sitting. Like I said, I have a very long list of foods that will trigger it - AND emotions that will trigger it. The trick is to just not get started, to stay satiated on good balanced meals.
No need to be defensive. I'm just making a point that the statement is misleading...every time I read it I get cognitive dissonance.1 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
That's just how the body reacts, for a lot of people. Eating can be addictive because it's unmistakably a pleasure, a reward. Where there's a reward/pleasure, there's possible addiction.
Food items can directly affect the brain chemistry which is biological. Take for example alcohol, which is quite a popular food item. Alcohol acts like a psychotic drug to the body. Lots of people crave that relaxing feeling from it, Not necessarily behavioral/psychological effects. Coffee is another good example.
sorry, food is not addictive.0 -
tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
Not necessarily due to the keto, but if you don't eat the fat-starch-sugar snacks for a while, you kind of start to forget the taste and the craving. The had Paczki at the Fat Tuesday swing dance, the moment the fatty-starchy-sugary deliciousness hit my tongue, it was like a wonderful euphoric drug (it had been at least a few months since I had had a donut) - I had forgotten how amazing they were. I was eyeing them all night, and kept returning to the table between sets- I couldn't ditch the craving all night. I think I ate ~4 full ones in total (they had been cut into smaller bite size pieces).
so you avoid anything with fat and sugar in them?0 -
I've also eaten 1800 calories of peanut butter right out of the jar.1
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tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
Not necessarily due to the keto, but if you don't eat the fat-starch-sugar snacks for a while, you kind of start to forget the taste and the craving. The had Paczki at the Fat Tuesday swing dance, the moment the fatty-starchy-sugary deliciousness hit my tongue, it was like a wonderful euphoric drug (it had been at least a few months since I had had a donut) - I had forgotten how amazing they were. I was eyeing them all night, and kept returning to the table between sets- I couldn't ditch the craving all night. I think I ate ~4 full ones in total (they had been cut into smaller bite size pieces).
so you avoid anything with fat and sugar in them?
At 4'10", 119 lbs, calorie bombs like donuts, cakes, etc don't fit into my regular diet very well (even on a cardio day). I don't buy them. I'll eat them if I'm out at a dance and someone puts them out and they look good. There isn't typically donuts though.0 -
cmriverside wrote: »I've also eaten 1800 calories of peanut butter right out of the jar.
That's impressive. What are you looking for here? We're all just talking about our own experiences, or generally referencing other articles or studies. It sounds like you definitely have some more major issues to deal with than I do. I hope it's going well.
I still don't think it's a physical addiction, unless you're stealing bikes to sell for your next PB fix. Real addiction is a big deal.1 -
annacole94 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »I've also eaten 1800 calories of peanut butter right out of the jar.
That's impressive. What are you looking for here? We're all just talking about our own experiences, or generally referencing other articles or studies. It sounds like you definitely have some more major issues to deal with than I do. I hope it's going well.
I still don't think it's a physical addiction, unless you're stealing bikes to sell for your next PB fix. Real addiction is a big deal.
I've been at a healthy weight for 10 years. I don't consider something "a major issue" if it doesn't affect my life.
I'm not arguing for the term "addiction." I am saying there are many reasons and many foods that I can eat compulsively if the conditions are right - not just combo sugar/fat foods.0 -
cmriverside wrote: »I've been at a healthy weight for 10 years. I don't consider something "a major issue" if it doesn't affect my life.
I'm not arguing for the term "addiction." I am saying there are many reasons and many foods that I can eat compulsively if the conditions are right - not just combo sugar/fat foods.
i don't think anyone is saying otherwise...1 -
cmriverside wrote: »I've been at a healthy weight for 10 years. I don't consider something "a major issue" if it doesn't affect my life.
I'm not arguing for the term "addiction." I am saying there are many reasons and many foods that I can eat compulsively if the conditions are right - not just combo sugar/fat foods.
i don't think anyone is saying otherwise...
lol. This whole thing started because that is exactly what Lemur says repeatedly.1 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
That's just how the body reacts, for a lot of people. Eating can be addictive because it's unmistakably a pleasure, a reward. Where there's a reward/pleasure, there's possible addiction.
Food items can directly affect the brain chemistry which is biological. Take for example alcohol, which is quite a popular food item. Alcohol acts like a psychotic drug to the body. Lots of people crave that relaxing feeling from it, Not necessarily behavioral/psychological effects. Coffee is another good example.
sorry, food is not addictive.
You are confusing yourself when you are over generalizing food is food. You are (intentionally?) avoiding to look at specific foods. Celery is highly unlikely addictive. Coffee, alcohol are very likely addictive. There are real highs from them that people get.
Btw, I sense that you are kinda lazy with thinking, the way you post. LOL2 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »tlanger251 wrote: »I've been addicted to food my whole life until I started the Keto diet. Now I don't have cravings for food ever, unless I'm physically hungry. I don't need willpower, the cravings are gone. No bored eating, emotional eating, carb binges.
I am sorry but this makes no sense. How would keto or any way of eating make you not addicted to food? Even with a keto diet you are still consuming food. Food addiction is not a real thing, but behavioral/psychological issues that make one consume food to the point of obesity are real issues.
That's just how the body reacts, for a lot of people. Eating can be addictive because it's unmistakably a pleasure, a reward. Where there's a reward/pleasure, there's possible addiction.
Food items can directly affect the brain chemistry which is biological. Take for example alcohol, which is quite a popular food item. Alcohol acts like a psychotic drug to the body. Lots of people crave that relaxing feeling from it, Not necessarily behavioral/psychological effects. Coffee is another good example.
sorry, food is not addictive.
You are confusing yourself when you are over generalizing food is food. You are (intentionally?) avoiding to look at specific foods. Celery is highly unlikely addictive. Coffee, alcohol are very likely addictive. There are real highs from them that people get.
Btw, I sense that you are kinda lazy with thinking, the way you post. LOL
coffee is a food, really?
if food is not food, then what is it?
1 -
Caffeine and alcohol are drugs.
And even if you find some foods easier to compulsively eat, it's pretty rare to actually chug a bottle of oil, or eat actual straight white sugar. So combinations are generally more attractive than single components.2
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