Do you gain weight in body recomp?
Replies
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RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
sorry but meal timing is so totally irrelevant...I mean come on. If it were relevant people who do IF couldn't Recomp and I know lots who do.
It's like saying you have to have X before you workout and X after...within X minutes.
I hate it when people confuse and over complicate situations.
Recomp is not that complicated. eat at Maintenance and do a progressive load resistance training program...ensure you are getting in enough Protein for repair.
and Yes it's that simple.
That's fine if that's your opinion.
I have experience with myself and with working with others and I know for me and others, meal timing, macro counting, and calorie cycling have drastically improved success during a recomp.
Not trying to win you over, just telling my experience, so no need for you to say you think I am wrong, I understand you do not agree with my experiences.
how did I know you were a PT....
and based on what I can see you don't have much to compare with as you are pretty sure your way is the best way so how can you compare against something else? have you tried another way? consistently?
I have seen lots of successful recomps too without all that...macro counting is part of body comp so that's a given but the rest eh...personal preference and no studies showing any of it is better than other methods...
See that's the key...proof not just "personal experience"..you show me a peer reviewed study(ies) that proves your way is the best and I will be glad to read it(them) and if proved be more than willing to change my opinion...
people can often be biased based on their beliefs and see what they want to see...true science has no bias.1 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
sorry but meal timing is so totally irrelevant...I mean come on. If it were relevant people who do IF couldn't Recomp and I know lots who do.
It's like saying you have to have X before you workout and X after...within X minutes.
I hate it when people confuse and over complicate situations.
Recomp is not that complicated. eat at Maintenance and do a progressive load resistance training program...ensure you are getting in enough Protein for repair.
and Yes it's that simple.
That's fine if that's your opinion.
I have experience with myself and with working with others and I know for me and others, meal timing, macro counting, and calorie cycling have drastically improved success during a recomp.
Not trying to win you over, just telling my experience, so no need for you to say you think I am wrong, I understand you do not agree with my experiences.
how did I know you were a PT....
people can often be biased based on their beliefs and see what they want to see...true science has no bias.
What does being a PT and knowing how to train people have anything to do with my knowledge about nutrition? I could be an PT and a CPA accountant or a PT and a registered dietician.
And yes, that is very true, it also goes both ways. If true science has no bias then you also could show a study where it shows that meal timing, macro's and calorie cycling have no effect on changing body composition while maintaining weight. I also stated earlier that it would happen with eating at maintenance and training hard, but that it would take longer.
Have you ever tried any of the above methods in order to recomp for a substantial amount of time to see changes? If not I think you cannot just point to science and say that it doesn't work better. The reason I would point to science is if I tried something, it did or didn't work, and I try and find science to back up why it did or didn't work. If it works and science says it doesn't work, well, I am going to go with my experience every time.4 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
sorry but meal timing is so totally irrelevant...I mean come on. If it were relevant people who do IF couldn't Recomp and I know lots who do.
It's like saying you have to have X before you workout and X after...within X minutes.
I hate it when people confuse and over complicate situations.
Recomp is not that complicated. eat at Maintenance and do a progressive load resistance training program...ensure you are getting in enough Protein for repair.
and Yes it's that simple.
That's fine if that's your opinion.
I have experience with myself and with working with others and I know for me and others, meal timing, macro counting, and calorie cycling have drastically improved success during a recomp.
Not trying to win you over, just telling my experience, so no need for you to say you think I am wrong, I understand you do not agree with my experiences.
how did I know you were a PT....
people can often be biased based on their beliefs and see what they want to see...true science has no bias.
What does being a PT and knowing how to train people have anything to do with my knowledge about nutrition? I could be an PT and a CPA accountant or a PT and a registered dietician.
And yes, that is very true, it also goes both ways. If true science has no bias then you also could show a study where it shows that meal timing, macro's and calorie cycling have no effect on changing body composition while maintaining weight. I also stated earlier that it would happen with eating at maintenance and training hard, but that it would take longer.
Have you ever tried any of the above methods in order to recomp for a substantial amount of time to see changes? If not I think you cannot just point to science and say that it doesn't work better. The reason I would point to science is if I tried something, it did or didn't work, and I try and find science to back up why it did or didn't work. If it works and science says it doesn't work, well, I am going to go with my experience every time.
It's not that it does or doesn't work.
It's that meal timing provides no significant/measurable benefit over not meal timing.
It neither helps nor hurts the process.
You did it one way... and it worked
Lots of other people did it another way... and it still worked.
Recomp is simple. Manage your macros(easy) Lift heavy/progressive(simple). >>>> lose fat gain muscle maintain weight within range.
After 18-24 months, progress begins to slow due to reaching the natural(biological) body fat limit/threshold. At which point it becomes much harder/more complicated to reduce body fat further and to continue increasing strength while maintaining target weight.
At that point... things that add 1-2% benefit may be relevant... ORRRRRRR alternative measures such as pharmaceutical intervention.
99.99% of people are happy at that point to go to a strength/weight maintenance program3 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
sorry but meal timing is so totally irrelevant...I mean come on. If it were relevant people who do IF couldn't Recomp and I know lots who do.
It's like saying you have to have X before you workout and X after...within X minutes.
I hate it when people confuse and over complicate situations.
Recomp is not that complicated. eat at Maintenance and do a progressive load resistance training program...ensure you are getting in enough Protein for repair.
and Yes it's that simple.
That's fine if that's your opinion.
I have experience with myself and with working with others and I know for me and others, meal timing, macro counting, and calorie cycling have drastically improved success during a recomp.
Not trying to win you over, just telling my experience, so no need for you to say you think I am wrong, I understand you do not agree with my experiences.
how did I know you were a PT....
people can often be biased based on their beliefs and see what they want to see...true science has no bias.
What does being a PT and knowing how to train people have anything to do with my knowledge about nutrition? I could be an PT and a CPA accountant or a PT and a registered dietician.
And yes, that is very true, it also goes both ways. If true science has no bias then you also could show a study where it shows that meal timing, macro's and calorie cycling have no effect on changing body composition while maintaining weight. I also stated earlier that it would happen with eating at maintenance and training hard, but that it would take longer.
Have you ever tried any of the above methods in order to recomp for a substantial amount of time to see changes? If not I think you cannot just point to science and say that it doesn't work better. The reason I would point to science is if I tried something, it did or didn't work, and I try and find science to back up why it did or didn't work. If it works and science says it doesn't work, well, I am going to go with my experience every time.
I am not the one asserting the "facts" that caloric cycling etc works best...
So I am not the one who has to "prove" anything. I am disputing that your assertions are true for all and that it is an individual decision on what works best for "them".
but yes there are lots of studies out there that say meal timing is of no relevance to weight and/or body comp and if I were asserting it I would go get them...
as for you being a PT I didn't say it had anything to do with your knowledge of nutrition except to say you are not a RD otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Anyway my point is and has been this for a couple posts...
Calorie cycling is not required for recomp. It can and does confuse the simple facts of recomp which are eat at maintenance, get in enough protein and do resistance training (preferably a progressive load lifting program)
and for you to keep hammering that it is then you will prove to me exactly what I am thinking...
3 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
What a lot of irrelevant nonsense.
You are applying micro management techniques that might apply to elite athletes or those seeking to complete in physique competitions to the whole population.
They may make a tiny percentage difference - which is simply not worth it to Joe or Jane Public,.
And sticking on idiotically pessimistic timescales you pulled out of your hat simply beggars belief and undermines any credibility you may claim.
I can still make measurable difference in weeks at my advanced age, simply through increased training intensity. No calorie timing twaddle or even food logging required.
K.I.S.S. is a good system for 99% (yes, like you I can pull numbers out of thin air!).2 -
And yet the benefits from the workout don't occur during the workout - but the recovery from the workout.
That's where the body makes the improvements building back up what was torn down - and stronger if diet allows.
To say that 24-48 hrs after is when you should actually be eating _less_ than maintenance - not a good idea.
It's not like if you are eating at maintenance overall, that stuffing an extra 400 calories in prior to a workout is going to benefit the workout more. If you were in a diet overall, perhaps.
But even there, the amount of blood sugar needed for clear thinking isn't that great - have a meal at some point prior. Shoot, probably had many meals prior, any muscle glucose stores have already been refilled, liver too.
I've never heard the point of calorie cycling to be for having a good workout - but rather for repair from a good workout.
Which puts emphasis on the post workout time.
This used to be public - http://liftstuff.blogspot.ca/2012/10/the-skinny-fat-annihilation-protocol.html
Perhaps as pointed out, we have a great example of your method caused about the same results as not doing it - but if you'd done it another way you'd actually be benefited more - but you don't know that because you didn't try it right!3 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
What a lot of irrelevant nonsense.
You are applying micro management techniques that might apply to elite athletes or those seeking to complete in physique competitions to the whole population.
They may make a tiny percentage difference - which is simply not worth it to Joe or Jane Public,.
And sticking on idiotically pessimistic timescales you pulled out of your hat simply beggars belief and undermines any credibility you may claim.
I can still make measurable difference in weeks at my advanced age, simply through increased training intensity. No calorie timing twaddle or even food logging required.
K.I.S.S. is a good system for 99% (yes, like you I can pull numbers out of thin air!).
Eh, that small difference MAY be worth it to Joe or Jane Public. What's wrong with discussing it? You can take it or leave it, but it's not ridiculous or irrelevant to the discussion.
It might be in my head, but I do think that timing of my macros makes a difference in my recovery and the value of my workouts. I like to fuel my workouts before and fuel my recovery after, and look, the improvements I'm looking to make are probably small, so that tiny percentage difference IS worth it to me, and might be worth it to the OP, or to anyone else reading here, even if it's not worth it to you.1 -
JeepHair77 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
What a lot of irrelevant nonsense.
You are applying micro management techniques that might apply to elite athletes or those seeking to complete in physique competitions to the whole population.
They may make a tiny percentage difference - which is simply not worth it to Joe or Jane Public,.
And sticking on idiotically pessimistic timescales you pulled out of your hat simply beggars belief and undermines any credibility you may claim.
I can still make measurable difference in weeks at my advanced age, simply through increased training intensity. No calorie timing twaddle or even food logging required.
K.I.S.S. is a good system for 99% (yes, like you I can pull numbers out of thin air!).
Eh, that small difference MAY be worth it to Joe or Jane Public. What's wrong with discussing it? You can take it or leave it, but it's not ridiculous or irrelevant to the discussion.
It might be in my head, but I do think that timing of my macros makes a difference in my recovery and the value of my workouts. I like to fuel my workouts before and fuel my recovery after, and look, the improvements I'm looking to make are probably small, so that tiny percentage difference IS worth it to me, and might be worth it to the OP, or to anyone else reading here, even if it's not worth it to you.
because the key is to keep stuff simple...if someone is getting paid to be in shape etc that is different but for a "regular" person not worth the complexity that is being spouted as a must do...when it's not a must do.
I think it was mentioned in the post as well..KISS principle...keep it simple stupid.2 -
JeepHair77 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »RedheadedPrincess14 wrote: »Do I eat back excercise calories? Half? What do you guys think? Or just eat at maintenance.
Remember everything is an estimate.
But to maintain you MUST be eating all your exercise calories back - otherwise you are in a deficit.
Irrelevant if you call them that (MFP method) or roll them up into same day allowance (average TDEE method).
Whether the number you estimate and eat back (or roll up into TDEE) is correct is judged by your actual weight trend over time. It's just as likely neither your food calories or exercise calorie estimates are actually accurate - doesn't matter if you find your balance.
Calorie cycling is purely personal preference, majoring in the minors if you like, not a requirement at all.
You are cycling between deficit and surplus multiple times a day - not just day to day. No micro management required.
Go for the eating pattern that you enjoy long term would be my advice.
To have a successful recomp and not spin your wheels for months on end "majoring in the minors" is important. They are not minors when you are trying to recomp. Sure if you eat at maintenance and train hard for 10 years, you'll put on some muscle and lose some fat along the way, or you can be very strict and follow specific meal timing and macros and get the same results in 2 years, or anywhere in between.
Just because someone is not willing to put in the effort and discipline into eating and training as someone else, does not mean it does not have value.
What a lot of irrelevant nonsense.
You are applying micro management techniques that might apply to elite athletes or those seeking to complete in physique competitions to the whole population.
They may make a tiny percentage difference - which is simply not worth it to Joe or Jane Public,.
And sticking on idiotically pessimistic timescales you pulled out of your hat simply beggars belief and undermines any credibility you may claim.
I can still make measurable difference in weeks at my advanced age, simply through increased training intensity. No calorie timing twaddle or even food logging required.
K.I.S.S. is a good system for 99% (yes, like you I can pull numbers out of thin air!).
Eh, that small difference MAY be worth it to Joe or Jane Public. What's wrong with discussing it? You can take it or leave it, but it's not ridiculous or irrelevant to the discussion.
It might be in my head, but I do think that timing of my macros makes a difference in my recovery and the value of my workouts. I like to fuel my workouts before and fuel my recovery after, and look, the improvements I'm looking to make are probably small, so that tiny percentage difference IS worth it to me, and might be worth it to the OP, or to anyone else reading here, even if it's not worth it to you.
"Better" needs quantifying and also needs aligning with personal goals. Nothing in the OP suggests extreme goals or fastest results at the expense of, quite possibly, pointless diligence.
Yes it's an option and (sensible) discussion is good, the opposite way of high recovery/low training days is also an option. What it isn't is required. Especially at maintenance we should have plenty of nutrient and energy onboard.
The vast proportion of the population, including gym goers, don't even calorie count. Bet those gym goers don't have a 10 year timeline or expectations for their progress!
Good for you and good luck with your aspirations.0 -
I would be curious to hear what RPsterngth and Eat to perform each had to say about the things being discussed and how much they mattered. Both of those organizations appear to be leaders in this topic.0
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Lol so many different opinions! I guess I'm going to have to play around0
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II would be curious to hear what RPsterngth and Eat to perform each had to say about the things being discussed and how much they mattered. Both of those organizations appear to be leaders in this topic.
yay Eat to Perform! I've been working with them for about 8 months now and just switched from performance to performance recomp for my goal - I'd have to find it but Paul Nobles made a good facebook post about it recently - not sure if its also a podcast or not0
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