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Doctors, what to believe and ignore
lauracups
Posts: 533 Member
The term "bro science " gets thrown around a lot in these forums. The amount of misinformation or out dated advice regarding health and wellness is abundant on line and in the media. What to do when it is coming from your physician?
So you've taken the step in the right direction, wanting to lower bp, weight, address blood sugar, etc, whatever your reason, and you do the logical thing and go to the doctor. Once there, you get the "eliminate ALL WHITE STARCHES AND SUGAR" speech, or stop eating red meat or eat only 1200 calories and exercise 90 minutes a day (yeah a dr. advised me to do that at my highest weight knowing I had a compressed disk and nerve damage).
It was only AFTER I ignored everything SEVERAL doctors had advised did I lose 60 pounds and managed my spinal conditions. Did a lot of trial and error and physical therapy with trainer who understands injury.
When taking responsibility for our health how much can we really rely on western medicine? Have the pez dispensing doctors done more to hurt personal responsibility and created the quick fix culture?
I still go get my physicals and yearly girly check ups, but when they mention my weight (I'm still 5-7 lbs above high end of normal bmi) and tell me "switch to brown rice" I nod and go have my white rice California roll.
So you've taken the step in the right direction, wanting to lower bp, weight, address blood sugar, etc, whatever your reason, and you do the logical thing and go to the doctor. Once there, you get the "eliminate ALL WHITE STARCHES AND SUGAR" speech, or stop eating red meat or eat only 1200 calories and exercise 90 minutes a day (yeah a dr. advised me to do that at my highest weight knowing I had a compressed disk and nerve damage).
It was only AFTER I ignored everything SEVERAL doctors had advised did I lose 60 pounds and managed my spinal conditions. Did a lot of trial and error and physical therapy with trainer who understands injury.
When taking responsibility for our health how much can we really rely on western medicine? Have the pez dispensing doctors done more to hurt personal responsibility and created the quick fix culture?
I still go get my physicals and yearly girly check ups, but when they mention my weight (I'm still 5-7 lbs above high end of normal bmi) and tell me "switch to brown rice" I nod and go have my white rice California roll.
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You seem to be correlating two different things here...
Initially you say that your Doctor gives, in your opinion, poor advice but then go onto ask the question about our reliance on western medicine.
Which is the debate topic? That some doctors give poor advice or that we rely on western medicine too much?3 -
StealthHealth wrote: »You seem to be correlating two different things here...
initially you say that your Doctor give, in your opinion, poor advice but then go onto ask the question about our reliance on western medicine.
Which is the debate topic? That some doctors give poor advice or that we rely on western medicine too much?
I guess to rephrase, when given less than helpful information, how reliant should we be? Continue to doc shop and pill pop or find another way.
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People on the Internet; what to believe and ignore ...5
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StealthHealth wrote: »You seem to be correlating two different things here...
initially you say that your Doctor give, in your opinion, poor advice but then go onto ask the question about our reliance on western medicine.
Which is the debate topic? That some doctors give poor advice or that we rely on western medicine too much?
I guess to rephrase, when given less than helpful information, how reliant should we be? Continue to doc shop and pill pop or find another way.
I think that on a practical basis, that if you feel like your doctor is giving you poor advice then you should be quatinoing that advice there and then.
So, in your example, when your GP recommends that you switch to brown rice you could have asked why that was their recommendation.
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StealthHealth wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »You seem to be correlating two different things here...
initially you say that your Doctor give, in your opinion, poor advice but then go onto ask the question about our reliance on western medicine.
Which is the debate topic? That some doctors give poor advice or that we rely on western medicine too much?
I guess to rephrase, when given less than helpful information, how reliant should we be? Continue to doc shop and pill pop or find another way.
I think that on a practical basis, that if you feel like your doctor is giving you poor advice then you should be quatinoing that advice there and then.
So, in your example, when your GP recommends that you switch to brown rice you could have asked why that was their recommendation.
That was just a tiny brush stroke of the bigger picture. And questions were asked especially when they just wanted to give a fat girl the keys to the pharmacy and pseudo diet advice and it took me wanting to find a different way and hard work. I don't feel that personal responsibility is helped by doctors rather, hurt by.
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There's a number of factors
1. Most GPs aren't qualified to give health/diet advice beyond the very basics and referrals.
2. Most patients want an easy answer or a pill. And don't want to be told that it's mostly their responsibility to fix the problem
3. Patients who do know better or want better, don't always push back vocally or energetically in order to better educate their doctor.
As health care changes, it becomes more incumbent on the patient to seek good advice and not simply confirmation. To ask intelligent and appropriately informed questions about the recommended course of action and possible alternatives.11 -
stanmann571 wrote: »There's a number of factors
1. Most GPs aren't qualified to give health/diet advice beyond the very basics and referrals.
2. Most patients want an easy answer or a pill. And don't want to be told that it's mostly their responsibility to fix the problem
3. Patients who do know better or want better, don't always push back vocally or energetically in order to better educate their doctor.
As health care changes, it becomes more incumbent on the patient to seek good advice and not simply confirmation. To ask intelligent and appropriately informed questions about the recommended course of action and possible alternatives.
Yep not taking personal responsibility to fix the problem is key.3 -
Packerjohn wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »There's a number of factors
1. Most GPs aren't qualified to give health/diet advice beyond the very basics and referrals.
2. Most patients want an easy answer or a pill. And don't want to be told that it's mostly their responsibility to fix the problem
3. Patients who do know better or want better, don't always push back vocally or energetically in order to better educate their doctor.
As health care changes, it becomes more incumbent on the patient to seek good advice and not simply confirmation. To ask intelligent and appropriately informed questions about the recommended course of action and possible alternatives.
Yep not taking personal responsibility to fix the problem is key.
http://www.aapsonline.org/patients/billrts.htmAll patients should be guaranteed the following freedoms:
•To seek consultation with the physician(s) of their choice;
•To contract with their physician(s) on mutually agreeable terms;
•To be treated confidentially, with access to their records limited to those involved in their care or designated by the patient;
•To use their own resources to purchase the care of their choice;
•To refuse medical treatment even if it is recommended by their physician(s);
•To be informed about their medical condition, the risks and benefits of treatment and appropriate alternatives;
•To refuse third-party interference in their medical care, and to be confident that their actions in seeking or declining medical care will not result in third-party-imposed penalties for patients or physicians;
•To receive full disclosure of their insurance plan in plain language, including: 1.CONTRACTS: A copy of the contract between the physician and health care plan, and between the patient or employer and the plan;
2.INCENTIVES: Whether participating physicians are offered financial incentives to reduce treatment or ration care;
3.COST: The full cost of the plan, including copayments, coinsurance, and deductibles;
4.COVERAGE: Benefits covered and excluded, including availability and location of 24-hour emergency care;
5.QUALIFICATIONS: A roster and qualifications of participating physicians;
6.APPROVAL PROCEDURES: Authorization procedures for services, whether doctors need approval of a committee or any other individual, and who decides what is medically necessary;
7.REFERRALS: Procedures for consulting a specialist, and who must authorize the referral;
8.APPEALS: Grievance procedures for claim or treatment denials;
9.GAG RULE: Whether physicians are subject to a gag rule, preventing criticism of the plan.3 -
Western medicine is pretty great. If I get cancer, or badly injured in a car accident, take me to a doctor not an acupuncturist.14
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I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.2
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I don't know why people seem to think that a doctor is supposed to be a nutritionist/registered dietician.6
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I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
My experience is different. In my son's HS class (they are now mid 20's) 3 of the 5 students with the highest GPA are now in med school. Another is planningto go when he finishes some volunteer work.4 -
Packerjohn wrote: »I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
My experience is different. In my son's HS class (they are now mid 20's) 3 of the 5 students with the highest GPA are now in med school. Another is planningto go when he finishes some volunteer work.
HS grades do not correlate to intelligence. As the former valedictorian who had the highest GPA in my graduating class, I can definitely admit there are more intelligent people out there. When i got to University I realized that there was a big difference between being the big fish in a small pond and being a medium fish in a huge pond.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
My experience is different. In my son's HS class (they are now mid 20's) 3 of the 5 students with the highest GPA are now in med school. Another is planningto go when he finishes some volunteer work.
HS grades do not correlate to intelligence. As the former valedictorian who had the highest GPA in my graduating class, I can definitely admit there are more intelligent people out there. When i got to University I realized that there was a big difference between being the big fish in a small pond and being a medium fish in a huge pond.
Well these kids were also scoring 35-36 on the 36 max score ACT test, so not really big fish in small pond.2 -
GPs are GPs...they are good for going and getting your annual physical, going in and saying such and such seems wrong, or monitoring current health conditions, and getting referrals...they get very little training in diet/nutrition, etc in med school...they aren't dietitians so I wouldn't expect to get anything really awesome in regards to nutritional or exercise advice from most GPs.
Mine actually happens to be pretty good in this regard, but he's also a competitive cyclist and tri-athlete so he is more interested in such things outside of his practice.5 -
Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.15 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
My experience is different. In my son's HS class (they are now mid 20's) 3 of the 5 students with the highest GPA are now in med school. Another is planningto go when he finishes some volunteer work.
HS grades do not correlate to intelligence. As the former valedictorian who had the highest GPA in my graduating class, I can definitely admit there are more intelligent people out there. When i got to University I realized that there was a big difference between being the big fish in a small pond and being a medium fish in a huge pond.
Well these kids were also scoring 35-36 on the 36 max score ACT test, so not really big fish in small pond.
That's really not all that impressive. It's ok. They'll figure it out when they're in a class of 400 and perfect act/sat is the you must be this tall to ride at the door2 -
1. Never rely on advice without verifying personally. Letters behind a name does not equal professional.
2. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Doctors know that most patients know what to do, but won't do it. Much easier to take a pill than workout. Many medical professionals have given up and only trying to mitigate risk at this point.
3. The average MFP member likely has more knowledge on weight management than the average general practitioner. They may know theory, but have little to no clue about application.
...and sadly many medical professionals are moving to industry - liability is only one of the problematic issues plaguing medicine. They got into medicine to treat patients, not follow protocols developed by insurance professionals and bureaucrats.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Western medicine is pretty great. If I get cancer, or badly injured in a car accident, take me to a doctor not an acupuncturist.
Yeah, I went to the doctor too after I went flying into the windshield, and the spinals worked great, but eventually I wanted to be active and train my body to not rely on heavy pain meds and through hard work I'm off all pills. It feels great to not be reliant on drugs.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
Most dietary/nutritional advice I've heard come from GPs is pretty general and is along the lines of eat more fish...eat more whole foods and less processed foods...eat your veg and fruit...eat less sugar...eat more healthy fats...eat more whole grains vs refined grains, watch your portions, etc. It's very generalized, but I don't think it's horrible advice given that they aren't specialists.
My GP before the one I have now pretty much gave me this advice when I went in for my 38 year checkup and came out with a host of crummy blood work. It was good enough to get me started on the right path and I lost 20 Lbs by just making more nutritious choices and watching portions more closely...so it definitely sent me down the right path. All of my bad blood work was reversed and other than my hypertension everything is in the optimal range. I have to take and gladly take meds for my hypertension because it's hereditary and not diet/exercise related.
IDK...I kind of think Dr. bashing is weird...
ETA: Where personal responsibility comes into play is difficult because I'd say the vast majority of people just want a magic pill to make everything go away. When I was talking to a relative about my cholesterol (he has high cholesterol) and told him I was trying to avoid medication by being proactive with my diet and exercise, he just said, "nah...just take the damn pill and eat and do whatever you like." I'd say that's probably the attitude of most. I'm sure the vast majority of GPs would love it if their patients took a more proactive approach, but that's just not the reality of it and I don't really see that as the Dr.s fault...they see thousands and thousands of patients per year.5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
Most dietary/nutritional advice I've heard come from GPs is pretty general and is along the lines of eat more fish...eat more whole foods and less processed foods...eat your veg and fruit...eat less sugar...eat more healthy fats...eat more whole grains vs refined grains, watch your portions, etc. It's very generalized, but I don't think it's horrible advice given that they aren't specialists.
My GP before the one I have now pretty much gave me this advice when I went in for my 38 year checkup and came out with a host of crummy blood work. It was good enough to get me started on the right path and I lost 20 Lbs by just making more nutritious choices and watching portions more closely...so it definitely sent me down the right path. All of my bad blood work was reversed and other than my hypertension everything is in the optimal range. I have to take and gladly take meds for my hypertension because it's hereditary and not diet/exercise related.
Great news on getting blood work numbers back to good! I'm glad you have a good GP.
After I got the weight off it seemed that the GP's that I saw were more willing to listen to me, before, not so much.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
...my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I think this is a fair question. When my wife went through a health scare some years ago now, we were inundated with advice from various doctors. We did a lot of reading and research on our own as well. This was a difficult and complicated situation, not nearly as clear-cut as weight loss. One thing that became clear to us is that you are in charge.
You should rely on doctors for their expert advice, but you should understand enough about what's going on to question or even reject their advice if need be. Physicians aren't oracles who make unassailable proclamations. They provide a service for a fee. There's a good reason why "second opinions" are often requested.
So listen to your doctor and heed her/his recommendations. But be prepared to reject them if you have a superior understanding of the situation.8 -
I've had good and bad doctors, and doctors who were good at one thing and bad at another. Being well intentioned doesn't prevent a doctor from being stupid, and being brilliant doesn't prevent a doctor from having zero kittens to give. There is no substitute for being your own patient advocate. And it's exhausting, especially when money or insurance concerns prevent you from seeking alternatives, or when you're too ill to be on top of your own care.
It's not just doctors. The official dietician / nutritionist at the hospital where I was diagnosed with diabetes is in charge of one of the largest, best rated facilities in the United States, and pretty much everything she told me about how to eat as a diabetic was wrong. She handed out flyers which were basically the ADA recommendations only dumbed down for people unwilling to count, log, or make any lifestyle changes. The breakfast options I had while in the hospital were two pieces of white toast and eggs plus artificially sweetened jam, or two pieces of French toast plus artificially sweetened syrup. Even as a newly diagnosed diabetic I intuited that these were not good options. And this lady was highly recommended by all the nurses and doctors at the hospital - "Wait until you talk to so and so, she's WONDERFUL!" I asked her if quinoa had higher or lower carbs than the same amount of rice, and she had never heard of quinoa. She wasn't sure whether sweet potatoes counted as "a carb" or "a vegetable" and her instructions were to eat three "carbs" with every meal - not a certain number of grams of carbs, mind you, but three servings of carb laden items, such as rice - with no differentiation based on how many actual carbs were contained per serving of different foods.
I understand that considering we live in a city with a high rate of obesity, she's probably used to having conversations more like "Since you're diabetic now you probably should not keep eating a whole pie by yourself, let other family members have some," but even so, the instructions she gave me were criminally ignorant.
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NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I said earlier if I get cancer, I want a hospital not a chiropractor. Along the same lines, I don't think the doctor is the right place to go for dietary help and advice. Go to a specialist for that. Doctors are experts at diagnosing and treating diseases, outside of this, they're just people and their opinions aren't worth more than other people's.2 -
I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
I'd strike personal trainers and nutritionists from that list for the most part. Both unregulated industries with a lot of *kitten* short courses that allow you to call yourself either or both of those things.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I said earlier if I get cancer, I want a hospital not a chiropractor. Along the same lines, I don't think the doctor is the right place to go for dietary help and advice. Go to a specialist for that. Doctors are experts at diagnosing and treating diseases, outside of this, they're just people and their opinions aren't worth more than other people's.
I am in complete agreement with this.
Part of the issue is that people think that there is something medically wrong with them, when the primary underlying issue is behavioral. Why on Earth would you go to a doctor to get a prescription to move more and eat less?
Now if you established a caloric deficit for 6 weeks with no results and confirmed that there are no issues with your logging, then seeking medical consult is appropriate. Starting with a medical consult is a waste of valuable time and resources.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
... at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
IMO take personal responsibility right from the start. If my dr ever suggests I do something and I don't already know why s/he wants me to or why it'd be a good idea, I ask. And I keep asking questions until I understand.
Butted heads with the oncologist I got in this area because of that. But we're cool now
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For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
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