Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Doctors, what to believe and ignore
Replies
-
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
Most dietary/nutritional advice I've heard come from GPs is pretty general and is along the lines of eat more fish...eat more whole foods and less processed foods...eat your veg and fruit...eat less sugar...eat more healthy fats...eat more whole grains vs refined grains, watch your portions, etc. It's very generalized, but I don't think it's horrible advice given that they aren't specialists.
My GP before the one I have now pretty much gave me this advice when I went in for my 38 year checkup and came out with a host of crummy blood work. It was good enough to get me started on the right path and I lost 20 Lbs by just making more nutritious choices and watching portions more closely...so it definitely sent me down the right path. All of my bad blood work was reversed and other than my hypertension everything is in the optimal range. I have to take and gladly take meds for my hypertension because it's hereditary and not diet/exercise related.
IDK...I kind of think Dr. bashing is weird...
ETA: Where personal responsibility comes into play is difficult because I'd say the vast majority of people just want a magic pill to make everything go away. When I was talking to a relative about my cholesterol (he has high cholesterol) and told him I was trying to avoid medication by being proactive with my diet and exercise, he just said, "nah...just take the damn pill and eat and do whatever you like." I'd say that's probably the attitude of most. I'm sure the vast majority of GPs would love it if their patients took a more proactive approach, but that's just not the reality of it and I don't really see that as the Dr.s fault...they see thousands and thousands of patients per year.5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
Most dietary/nutritional advice I've heard come from GPs is pretty general and is along the lines of eat more fish...eat more whole foods and less processed foods...eat your veg and fruit...eat less sugar...eat more healthy fats...eat more whole grains vs refined grains, watch your portions, etc. It's very generalized, but I don't think it's horrible advice given that they aren't specialists.
My GP before the one I have now pretty much gave me this advice when I went in for my 38 year checkup and came out with a host of crummy blood work. It was good enough to get me started on the right path and I lost 20 Lbs by just making more nutritious choices and watching portions more closely...so it definitely sent me down the right path. All of my bad blood work was reversed and other than my hypertension everything is in the optimal range. I have to take and gladly take meds for my hypertension because it's hereditary and not diet/exercise related.
Great news on getting blood work numbers back to good! I'm glad you have a good GP.
After I got the weight off it seemed that the GP's that I saw were more willing to listen to me, before, not so much.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
...my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I think this is a fair question. When my wife went through a health scare some years ago now, we were inundated with advice from various doctors. We did a lot of reading and research on our own as well. This was a difficult and complicated situation, not nearly as clear-cut as weight loss. One thing that became clear to us is that you are in charge.
You should rely on doctors for their expert advice, but you should understand enough about what's going on to question or even reject their advice if need be. Physicians aren't oracles who make unassailable proclamations. They provide a service for a fee. There's a good reason why "second opinions" are often requested.
So listen to your doctor and heed her/his recommendations. But be prepared to reject them if you have a superior understanding of the situation.8 -
I've had good and bad doctors, and doctors who were good at one thing and bad at another. Being well intentioned doesn't prevent a doctor from being stupid, and being brilliant doesn't prevent a doctor from having zero kittens to give. There is no substitute for being your own patient advocate. And it's exhausting, especially when money or insurance concerns prevent you from seeking alternatives, or when you're too ill to be on top of your own care.
It's not just doctors. The official dietician / nutritionist at the hospital where I was diagnosed with diabetes is in charge of one of the largest, best rated facilities in the United States, and pretty much everything she told me about how to eat as a diabetic was wrong. She handed out flyers which were basically the ADA recommendations only dumbed down for people unwilling to count, log, or make any lifestyle changes. The breakfast options I had while in the hospital were two pieces of white toast and eggs plus artificially sweetened jam, or two pieces of French toast plus artificially sweetened syrup. Even as a newly diagnosed diabetic I intuited that these were not good options. And this lady was highly recommended by all the nurses and doctors at the hospital - "Wait until you talk to so and so, she's WONDERFUL!" I asked her if quinoa had higher or lower carbs than the same amount of rice, and she had never heard of quinoa. She wasn't sure whether sweet potatoes counted as "a carb" or "a vegetable" and her instructions were to eat three "carbs" with every meal - not a certain number of grams of carbs, mind you, but three servings of carb laden items, such as rice - with no differentiation based on how many actual carbs were contained per serving of different foods.
I understand that considering we live in a city with a high rate of obesity, she's probably used to having conversations more like "Since you're diabetic now you probably should not keep eating a whole pie by yourself, let other family members have some," but even so, the instructions she gave me were criminally ignorant.
8 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I said earlier if I get cancer, I want a hospital not a chiropractor. Along the same lines, I don't think the doctor is the right place to go for dietary help and advice. Go to a specialist for that. Doctors are experts at diagnosing and treating diseases, outside of this, they're just people and their opinions aren't worth more than other people's.2 -
I was told today that the smartest students no longer want to become Doctors, liability is too high. The ones becoming doctors are the ones with lower grades from less reputable schools. That being said, I personally believe that exercise physiologists, nutritionists/dieticians, physical therapists, personal trainers and massage therapists know more about weight loss.
I'd strike personal trainers and nutritionists from that list for the most part. Both unregulated industries with a lot of *kitten* short courses that allow you to call yourself either or both of those things.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
For the record I'm not dismissing the advancements made by western medicine and I'm certainly not in the acv camp, but again my point was at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
I said earlier if I get cancer, I want a hospital not a chiropractor. Along the same lines, I don't think the doctor is the right place to go for dietary help and advice. Go to a specialist for that. Doctors are experts at diagnosing and treating diseases, outside of this, they're just people and their opinions aren't worth more than other people's.
I am in complete agreement with this.
Part of the issue is that people think that there is something medically wrong with them, when the primary underlying issue is behavioral. Why on Earth would you go to a doctor to get a prescription to move more and eat less?
Now if you established a caloric deficit for 6 weeks with no results and confirmed that there are no issues with your logging, then seeking medical consult is appropriate. Starting with a medical consult is a waste of valuable time and resources.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Hand washing is really common because western medicine identified things so small you can't see them, that make people sick. It's not bad air or evil spirits or a curse, it's germs! And hand washing is a big part of why the Ebola virus wasn't devastating when it reached the western world.
On that note, small pox wasn't eradicated with apple cider vinegar or intuitive eating, either.
... at what point do we take personal responsibility and question their advise regarding diet.
IMO take personal responsibility right from the start. If my dr ever suggests I do something and I don't already know why s/he wants me to or why it'd be a good idea, I ask. And I keep asking questions until I understand.
Butted heads with the oncologist I got in this area because of that. But we're cool now
4 -
For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
1 -
For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
What exactly are we defining as chronic here?3 -
I think you need to walk into the doctor's office with an attitude of personal responsibility. Why? Can you explain that further? And can you recommend any other resources I can consult? should be on the tip of your tongue at all times.
A lot of good points have been brought up in this thread concerning why GPs aren't necessarily helpful for diet and nutrition advice that I hadn't thought of so I'm glad I stopped by. I am often one of the ones piling on doctors
Having said that, I do wish a basic foundational level of training and continuing ed in nutrition and weight management was required for GPs. It seems that obesity is a serious contributing factor in the chronic conditions that are crippling our health system, and the way insurance is currently set up (at least in the US) many people only ever see a GP or urgent care doctor. Either they need to be more knowledgeable in this area or they need to refer folks to an RD more freely. Unfortunately I'm wondering if insurance protocols/costs keep them from doing that. Specialists are expensive and not guaranteed to be covered.
The more I think about healthcare in the US, the more I think we are wholly and completely *kitten*ed. Luckily it's Friday and almost time to open the wine :drinker:4 -
VintageFeline wrote: »For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
What exactly are we defining as chronic here?
I have found medical intervention/doctors quite helpful in managing my chronic conditions.
I don't see how someone could adjust meds without consulting a physician. When my arthritis noticeably deteriorated in between doses of biologic, I asked my rheumatologist if we could increase the frequency of the dose and discussed the possible implications of doing that.
Another of my meds needs blood work because just going by symptoms isn't a reliable indicator as to whether I'm over or under medicated.
I'm a bit confused on this point, to be honest.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
What exactly are we defining as chronic here?
I have found medical intervention/doctors quite helpful in managing my chronic conditions.
I don't see how someone could adjust meds without consulting a physician. When my arthritis noticeably deteriorated in between doses of biologic, I asked my rheumatologist if we could increase the frequency of the dose and discussed the possible implications of doing that.
Another of my meds needs blood work because just going by symptoms isn't a reliable indicator as to whether I'm over or under medicated.
I'm a bit confused on this point, to be honest.
That's why I asked. I wouldn't be able to self manage entirely and in the case of many of the meds available to me side effects can literally kill you if not taken exactly as prescribed and constantly monitored.
So I'm confused by what we're using as chronic and why it's beneficial to attempt to self manage said chronic conditions.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »For acute problems, I love doctors. Broken arm, surgery, need a test run = helpful.
For chronic problems, I have found that they have very little value. Developing a diet, managing pain, adjusting melds = I wish they would get out of my way.
What exactly are we defining as chronic here?
Ongoing problems...
Celiac disease - I had one doctor tell me once I finally got my autoantibodies into the normal range (took over a year GF) that I could now eat gluten again.
Hypothyroidism - I had doctors retest until I finally had a normal TSH and then insist I was normal. I had a later doctor refuse to increase or change my meds because my TSH was in the normal range even though my symptoms had not changed... That doctor also told me to read less. Lol
Autoimmune arthritis
Prediabetes - I was told to eat more carbs and leaner meats and they would monitor it until I needed medication. I also developed prediabetes after being put on steroids for chronically low steroids.
Osteoarthritis - there is nothing they can do until I get joint replacement. Surgeons are mighty handy.
Chronic strep throat - As a young teen, they put me on antibiotics for over a year because I kept testing positive- I don't even remember the first sore throat never mind an ongoing one.
Stuff like that.
1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Western medicine is pretty great. If I get cancer, or badly injured in a car accident, take me to a doctor not an acupuncturist.
That's what my Chinese acupuncturist/herbalist said, too!
2 -
I'm so fortunate to have great docs looking after me. It wasn't always that way but it is now. Be thankful for your good docs, if it applies to your situation.1
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393K Introduce Yourself
- 43.7K Getting Started
- 260.1K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.8K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 415 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.9K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.6K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.5K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions