Seeking specific advice from EXPERIENCED bodybuilders
kvfitnesslog
Posts: 13 Member
I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle. I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle. I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
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Replies
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First, there isn't such a thing as mesomorph. Somatotyping has been debunked since it wasn't even developed by a physiologist by a psychologist. Your shape is your shape just based on genes and body composition.kvfitnesslog wrote: »I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
Yeah, it's not likely muscle. However you measured your body fat % is likely what also gave you 3lb muscle gain and the reality is that gaining muscle means gaining weight. And you don't gain weight in a surplus. Even if you have great genetics, a 3lb gain by a FEMALE in a deficit is improbable.My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle.
Based on your height and weight as well as activity, you're likely not losing much body fat because you're not burning enough calories. Swimmers burn a lot of calories. You USED to be a swimmer, so your calorie expenditure isn't as high any more and weight lifting doesn't burn that many calories.I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
Also macros are just percentages, however it still comes down to CICO for weight loss. I suspect you don't really measure your food and are guessing the actual calories. So you're likely eating more than you think.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Hey @kvfitnesslog
I have been through the same phase , the only difference I started as an ectomorph. Coming straight to the point of lower belly fat in spite of having a relatively toned other areas , in my case it was the choice of fat.
Eat 0.3 to 0.5 grams per pound of ideal body weight
Fat levels should stay relatively constant in your diet whether you want to burn fat or gain lean muscle.
Fat is necessary to make hormones and to keep fat-burning enzymes working. Consume healthy fats from lean proteins, fish and flax oils, raw nuts and seeds, and vegetables. Avoid unhealthy fats from foods like french fries, fried food, margarine and all hydrogenated oils (trans fats). Ensure your work your abs a minimum of 4 times a week concentration all the areas of AB ( include at least 1 Machine assisted AB exercise with 20 X 3 + Plank, the rest you can choose )
Exercise avoid higher reps and aim at getting stronger initially and then work on getting toned. Building strength is very important and forms the base. Track your progress by checking your strength week on week. I dont believe in high rep - lower weight concepts as it never worked for me to put on muscle mass. I always went heavy keeping my form as my primary guide.
Based on what you written above, if I were you I would follow the below :
Calories : 1500 - 1600
Protein : 120- 125 gms
Carb : 180 - 190 gms ( lean yams, brown rice, oatmeal, vegetables and fruits)
Fat : 35 - 40 gms (lean as mentioned above)
This worked for me , Hope it helps you too!
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Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
I have been through the same phase , the only difference I started as an ectomorph. Coming straight to the point of lower belly fat in spite of having a relatively toned other areas , in my case it was the choice of fat.
Eat 0.3 to 0.5 grams per pound of ideal body weight
Fat levels should stay relatively constant in your diet whether you want to burn fat or gain lean muscle.
Fat is necessary to make hormones and to keep fat-burning enzymes working. Consume healthy fats from lean proteins, fish and flax oils, raw nuts and seeds, and vegetables. Avoid unhealthy fats from foods like french fries, fried food, margarine and all hydrogenated oils (trans fats). Ensure your work your abs a minimum of 4 times a week concentration all the areas of AB ( include at least 1 Machine assisted AB exercise with 20 X 3 + Plank, the rest you can choose )
Exercise avoid higher reps and aim at getting stronger initially and then work on getting toned. Building strength is very important and forms the base. Track your progress by checking your strength week on week. I dont believe in high rep - lower weight concepts as it never worked for me to put on muscle mass. I always went heavy keeping my form as my primary guide.
Based on what you written above, if I were you I would follow the below :
Calories : 1500 - 1600
Protein : 120- 125 gms
Carb : 180 - 190 gms ( lean yams, brown rice, oatmeal, vegetables and fruits)
Fat : 35 - 40 gms (lean as mentioned above)
This worked for me , Hope it helps you too!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 11 -
kvfitnesslog wrote: »I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle. I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
Your maintenance if you were sedentary would actually be estimated tad more than what you got (BMR 1348 x 1.25 = 1685)
But you aren't sedentary. Not with your gym schedule.
Your potential TDEE is probably closer to 2000.
A 10% deficit for the minor amount to lose would be eating 1800.
Even if rest of daily life is really sedentary, TDEE still around 1825, deficit eating 1650.
Therefore you likely have a really steep deficit eating only 1200 - and from experience and the way you write, I'm betting much logging "is on the safe side" - so probably even less.
You have no idea how good your workouts could be taking a much smaller deficit from a more realistic TDEE maintenance.
A good workout is going to ask the body to transform more. That requires more energy for recovery, that helps burn fat.
Your increases on the bar while good are likely based almost all on form improvements and trying to find your true working weight.
Also, the benefit of the workout is not actually during the workout.
A good workout tears the body down.
It's the rest for recovery and repair that builds it back up, stronger if diet allows.
Do you actually have rest for the muscles in there, or day to day using the same ones?
Or the other extreme which is a real fad right now - 1 muscle group weekly, so each day is a different group?
That's not frequent enough.
Ditto's to comments that the measurements of fat % and LBM % are likely not only inaccurate - but LBM is more than just muscle - it is everything NOT fat. So a scale/handheld, ect reading of LBM could go up by having a glass of water prior compared to last time.
Or since you only have 1 valid weigh-in day - the normal fluctuations from workouts if not done on that day.7 -
Good advice above and from Niner. Did you mean you have lost weight or just BIA scales or however you are measuring shows the switch in fat vs muscle? Assuming you mean you've lost weight then you will definitely be eating too little.
The other point is to ask if you are following a program or your own creation. To get maximum results you need to on an optimum schedule.1 -
I agree with Ninerbuff1
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Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
@kvfitnesslog
Unfortunately people store fat in different areas and the only way to get rid of that is to simply get leaner. The idea you can "target" a certain area is false. I'd be curious what your lifting split looks like and if you're doing heavy compound lifts. I'm also dubious that you're only burning 1600 calories a day...have you tried tracking with an apple watch or fitbit or something? Not that they're completely accurate but I've yet to find an online calculator that even comes close to being accurate.
I'd recommend you focus on cutting, then bulking. It is an impossibility to gain muscle while in a deficit unless you're not natural. I cut until I'm in the 9-11%bf range then bulk until I'm roughly 15%. I struggle mentally to accept gaining too much fat in the name of gains.
Hope this helps.3 -
joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
.
1) No its broscience normally founded on beliefs from "enhanced" professional athletes
2) Agreed5 -
trigden1991 wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: ».
1) No its broscience normally founded on beliefs from "enhanced" professional athletes
2) Agreed
1. I'm referring to clean eating vs. IIFYM (I personally follow IIFYM, but try to eat mostly whole foods; works for me) and lower reps/higher weight better than the converse for adding muscle. Oh, and the ab thing. Sure, there is some BS in broscience, just like every other school of thought around fitness/nutrition.
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Lift heavy... safely... increase protein, increase calories if you want to build muscle... more muscle will help burn fat... it takes months and sometimes years to get to the tipping point where you will eventually look in the mirror and say s hit I look awesome... work your program in 12 week increments... take measurements don't rely on a scale... ab fat is not the devil... be patient0
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Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
You have a lot of stuff going on here. Why are you aiming for 1200 if your goal is to maintain your weight and recomp? Or are you trying to cut then run a bulk? I think figuring out your goals is going to be the first step. With your stats you can either run a small cut to lower your bodyfat % then bulk, or you can recomp. Which one is better, that will depend on what you are comfortable with and the results you are looking for.
Keep in mind that you may not have the muscle base for sufficient ab definition.. so potentially you will cut and look about the same. So if you have been trying to cut for a while and not seeing results, I would switch to recomp or bulk to build muscle. I see people constantly chasing abs and in the end they end up spinning their wheels.
Are you doing a program at the gym? Working with a PT?
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Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
Also, consorting to making fun of someone's name does show a pretty good degree of immaturity in an otherwise cordial discussion. Stick to facts bro.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
@ninerbuff is 100% correct. All the ab work in the world will NOT make your abs visible unless your body fat % is low enough. Honestly I haven't done a sit up or crunch in years, but by BF%, combined with a focus on compound movements in the gym, has not only made my core stronger, but has given me much better aesthetics than direct ab work has ever done.
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First, there isn't such a thing as mesomorph. Somatotyping has been debunked since it wasn't even developed by a physiologist by a psychologist. Your shape is your shape just based on genes and body composition.kvfitnesslog wrote: »I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
Yeah, it's not likely muscle. However you measured your body fat % is likely what also gave you 3lb muscle gain and the reality is that gaining muscle means gaining weight. And you don't gain weight in a surplus. Even if you have great genetics, a 3lb gain by a FEMALE in a deficit is improbable.My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle.
Based on your height and weight as well as activity, you're likely not losing much body fat because you're not burning enough calories. Swimmers burn a lot of calories. You USED to be a swimmer, so your calorie expenditure isn't as high any more and weight lifting doesn't burn that many calories.I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
Also macros are just percentages, however it still comes down to CICO for weight loss. I suspect you don't really measure your food and are guessing the actual calories. So you're likely eating more than you think.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hi, thanks for the reply. You're most likely right about the caloric expenditure. As for the body measurements after a month, I do regular hydrostatic weighing (for the past 3 months or so) and those are what my results come out to. The problem is I still think I have reason to question the body fat percentage they give me since I was told the first few times I was at ~ 19.0, 18.5, and 18 percent body fat but personally, I think I'm a lot higher than that. I continuously struggle to burn my midsection fat. Also, I find cardio to be ineffective (tried it at high intensity the second month) even at high intensity but that could just be me.
In response to my deficit though, I do measure my food out before I meal prep for the weeks and input it onto fitness pal and this software I use. 1200 is actually a high estimate for me. It's just disappointing to not see the results I want in my midsection when I've been cutting more and more calories out of my diet for months0 -
kvfitnesslog wrote: »I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle. I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
Your maintenance if you were sedentary would actually be estimated tad more than what you got (BMR 1348 x 1.25 = 1685)
But you aren't sedentary. Not with your gym schedule.
Your potential TDEE is probably closer to 2000.
A 10% deficit for the minor amount to lose would be eating 1800.
Even if rest of daily life is really sedentary, TDEE still around 1825, deficit eating 1650.
Therefore you likely have a really steep deficit eating only 1200 - and from experience and the way you write, I'm betting much logging "is on the safe side" - so probably even less.
You have no idea how good your workouts could be taking a much smaller deficit from a more realistic TDEE maintenance.
A good workout is going to ask the body to transform more. That requires more energy for recovery, that helps burn fat.
Your increases on the bar while good are likely based almost all on form improvements and trying to find your true working weight.
Also, the benefit of the workout is not actually during the workout.
A good workout tears the body down.
It's the rest for recovery and repair that builds it back up, stronger if diet allows.
Do you actually have rest for the muscles in there, or day to day using the same ones?
Or the other extreme which is a real fad right now - 1 muscle group weekly, so each day is a different group?
That's not frequent enough.
Ditto's to comments that the measurements of fat % and LBM % are likely not only inaccurate - but LBM is more than just muscle - it is everything NOT fat. So a scale/handheld, ect reading of LBM could go up by having a glass of water prior compared to last time.
Or since you only have 1 valid weigh-in day - the normal fluctuations from workouts if not done on that day.
Hi, I weigh in monthly via hydrostatic since my family has a monthly subscription. Regardless of it's accuracy, however, I don't believe I am actually at the 18 percent it puts me at since I believe I have a lot of stomach fat going on. In terms of the calories, I might have to make that change so thanks. I've just decreased it more and more recently when I don't see the fat loss results I want (my last 3 measurements I went down 1-2% give or take and I don't look very different either)0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Good advice above and from Niner. Did you mean you have lost weight or just BIA scales or however you are measuring shows the switch in fat vs muscle? Assuming you mean you've lost weight then you will definitely be eating too little.
The other point is to ask if you are following a program or your own creation. To get maximum results you need to on an optimum schedule.
Hydrostatic weighing, monthly for the past 3 months. I've seen little progress (the results have come out from 19 to 18 bf). My main concern is that my regimen, while extreme on the caloric deficit, still doesn't seem to burn enough fat0 -
joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
@kvfitnesslog
Unfortunately people store fat in different areas and the only way to get rid of that is to simply get leaner. The idea you can "target" a certain area is false. I'd be curious what your lifting split looks like and if you're doing heavy compound lifts. I'm also dubious that you're only burning 1600 calories a day...have you tried tracking with an apple watch or fitbit or something? Not that they're completely accurate but I've yet to find an online calculator that even comes close to being accurate.
I'd recommend you focus on cutting, then bulking. It is an impossibility to gain muscle while in a deficit unless you're not natural. I cut until I'm in the 9-11%bf range then bulk until I'm roughly 15%. I struggle mentally to accept gaining too much fat in the name of gains.
Hope this helps.
Good point, but I don't have any strict belief in "broscience" and what I meant to say is I quit crunches since I know they don't burn fat but training them regularly is something I will definitely start to do. Again, I am not sure how accurate the weighing method I use is since when I look in the mirror I assume I am much higher. For a female though (assuming my measurement is correct), would a cut or bulk be better at 18-18.5 bf?0 -
You have a lot of stuff going on here. Why are you aiming for 1200 if your goal is to maintain your weight and recomp? Or are you trying to cut then run a bulk? I think figuring out your goals is going to be the first step. With your stats you can either run a small cut to lower your bodyfat % then bulk, or you can recomp. Which one is better, that will depend on what you are comfortable with and the results you are looking for.
Keep in mind that you may not have the muscle base for sufficient ab definition.. so potentially you will cut and look about the same. So if you have been trying to cut for a while and not seeing results, I would switch to recomp or bulk to build muscle. I see people constantly chasing abs and in the end they end up spinning their wheels.
Are you doing a program at the gym? Working with a PT?
I was originally at 1600 a few months ago but decreased that by 1200 when I wasn't seeing the results I wanted (maybe it's just my body that seems to not see great results even at a deficit from genetics or maybe swimming all my life?). I have a regular 2 week routine that I follow (working out 6 days a week for 1hr) but no trainer. Thanks for the reply0 -
Thanks, everyone for the advice. It seems as though people tend to agree that I need to either increase my caloric intake or just focus on a straight up cut, when in reality I've just been so indecisive as to what to do having been doubting all my bf measurements when comparing them to what I see in the mirror. I'm going to weigh in at the hydrostatic place in a week so I'll check in (I've heard something about DEXA. Maybe I should try that instead). Does anyone have any numbers as to what bf% a female should cut vs bulk at? Since guessing where my calories should be and hoping for the best so far has been a pain.0
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Typically a female should start a bulk at 20%* and under. However, if the person really lacks muscle or is underweight/borderline underweight, they should go to gain because they will just spin their wheels trying to lose more or recomp at that point.
At just around 20% women will still have fat on their bodies, so you don't have to be completely ripped to start a bulk.
*I will add.. some like to start a bulk leaner .. this can help better deal with fat gains, shorten the cutting time after a bulk as well it can help with nutrient partitioning (at least that is what I have heard not sure if there is any benefit to starting at 20% vs leaner in that regard).
1 -
Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
Also, consorting to making fun of someone's name does show a pretty good degree of immaturity in an otherwise cordial discussion. Stick to facts bro.
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What competitive bodybuilder at a low body fat percentage that trains abs doesn't have good looking abs? haha4 -
kvfitnesslog wrote: »kvfitnesslog wrote: »I'm young. 18 years old, female, 5'5 and 125 pounds. Skinny fat, lean, with a mesomorph frame (I'm not swole but I can lift heavier than most of the non elite natty girls at the gym)
I want to know if what I'm doing is the right thing to see a good recomp (fat down, muscle up). Unfortunately, because I don't know my exact bf percentage I'm not sure whether to strictly cut or bulk first.
My maintenance is around 1600 calories a day I'm assuming with my frame.
I eat super clean, no added salt/sugar/etc etc and not even processed foods.
I eat 1200 calories a day, macros goal counted at 30% carbs 40% protein and 30% fats. Although, if I'm being honest I'm usually around 35% carbs, 35% protein and 30% fat every day.
The first month of doing this) naturally and everything) I lost 5 pounds of fat net and gained 3 pounds of muscle. I don't look super different though. Since then I've continued for about another 2 weeks on this diet (also forgot to mention but I go to the gym 6 days a week, warm up on the treadmill for 10 minutes and lift weights for 50) and I don't really see myself losing belly fat. My arms are slowly but steadily becoming more toned and I am increasing the weights that I lift at at a very fast rate these 2 weeks (I went up on lat pulldowns by 50 pounds etc etc). I used to be a swimmer and I used to do crunches regularly so when I flex and feel my stomach I can feel that it's very hard behind the 1 or so inches of fat in front of it, so I stopped doing straight up crunches since they don't make me lose fat period.
Am I doing anything wrong? I am looking to lean out AND get more muscle than the average girl wants but if I were to state my priority that would be to lose belly fat first. Knowing this, would anyone make changes to my regimen? My caloric intake?
To add I also fast intermittently unintentionally about 3-4 days a week since I have my last meal at around 5pm and eat breakfast the next morning at around 9. I have 3 meals between 9 and 5. Knowing all these specifics about me (mesomorph body, etc if that's helpful at all), I would appreciate ANY advice from those who are experienced. Thanks
Your maintenance if you were sedentary would actually be estimated tad more than what you got (BMR 1348 x 1.25 = 1685)
But you aren't sedentary. Not with your gym schedule.
Your potential TDEE is probably closer to 2000.
A 10% deficit for the minor amount to lose would be eating 1800.
Even if rest of daily life is really sedentary, TDEE still around 1825, deficit eating 1650.
Therefore you likely have a really steep deficit eating only 1200 - and from experience and the way you write, I'm betting much logging "is on the safe side" - so probably even less.
You have no idea how good your workouts could be taking a much smaller deficit from a more realistic TDEE maintenance.
A good workout is going to ask the body to transform more. That requires more energy for recovery, that helps burn fat.
Your increases on the bar while good are likely based almost all on form improvements and trying to find your true working weight.
Also, the benefit of the workout is not actually during the workout.
A good workout tears the body down.
It's the rest for recovery and repair that builds it back up, stronger if diet allows.
Do you actually have rest for the muscles in there, or day to day using the same ones?
Or the other extreme which is a real fad right now - 1 muscle group weekly, so each day is a different group?
That's not frequent enough.
Ditto's to comments that the measurements of fat % and LBM % are likely not only inaccurate - but LBM is more than just muscle - it is everything NOT fat. So a scale/handheld, ect reading of LBM could go up by having a glass of water prior compared to last time.
Or since you only have 1 valid weigh-in day - the normal fluctuations from workouts if not done on that day.
Hi, I weigh in monthly via hydrostatic since my family has a monthly subscription. Regardless of it's accuracy, however, I don't believe I am actually at the 18 percent it puts me at since I believe I have a lot of stomach fat going on. In terms of the calories, I might have to make that change so thanks. I've just decreased it more and more recently when I don't see the fat loss results I want (my last 3 measurements I went down 1-2% give or take and I don't look very different either)
So the inaccuracy isn't as big an issue - but the fact remains it gives you only 2 figures - fat and LBM, and LBM is muscle and water and everything NOT fat.
So goes back to the thought you gained muscle mass that fast. You didn't.
Shoot - the stress the body can have undereating too much can raise cortisol and cause water weight gain - even while inches of fat are dropping somewhere.
But that's a rough way to attempt to lose fat, with the body that stressed out it retains water.2 -
Lol, yes it's Mr. Irrelevant and knowledgeless back again after ELUDING question after question on his dispositions he "stood" by. I'll humor you.RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
Also, consorting to making fun of someone's name does show a pretty good degree of immaturity in an otherwise cordial discussion. Stick to facts bro.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
What competitive bodybuilder at a low body fat percentage that trains abs doesn't have good looking abs? haha
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Lol, yes it's Mr. Irrelevant and knowledgeless back again after ELUDING question after question on his dispositions he "stood" by. I'll humor you.RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
Also, consorting to making fun of someone's name does show a pretty good degree of immaturity in an otherwise cordial discussion. Stick to facts bro.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
What competitive bodybuilder at a low body fat percentage that trains abs doesn't have good looking abs? haha
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You must not understand bodybuilding. If you saw any of those guys in person you'd say otherwise. Pictures and the lighting wash out a lot in pictures. If you think those guys don't have defined, shredded and developed abs you clearly don't know the sport.5 -
And you're spewing nonsense again. I have seen 2 of them in person. Their abs are horrible due to "Palumboism". In fact it was named because of one of the ones above. Knowing the actual "evolution" of bodybuilding, I can attest that today's competitors DO NOT have the slim down waistlines like they did in the "golden years" of bodybuilding. You gonna debate that?RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Lol, yes it's Mr. Irrelevant and knowledgeless back again after ELUDING question after question on his dispositions he "stood" by. I'll humor you.RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Anecdotes aren't evidence. When applying "real science" to it, you'll find out it relates directly to CICO.joemac1988 wrote: »
Lots of broscience here. AB exercises are for strengthening abs, not for reducing body fat. And putting on muscle mass meant not only volume work but a SURPLUS of calories.Hey @kvfitnesslog
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hey ninerfluff:
1. Broscience can't be completely discounted. A lot of it has a solid foundation of, if nothing else, people who use it successfully.
The degree of visible abs is DIRECTLY related to body fat % and not ab work. There are lots of competitive body builders who train their abs and even at low body fat, don't have a good looking 6 pack.2. Direct ab work WILL assist in making the abs visible so don't knock that. It won't be through fat loss, but building the abdominal muscles.
Also, consorting to making fun of someone's name does show a pretty good degree of immaturity in an otherwise cordial discussion. Stick to facts bro.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
What competitive bodybuilder at a low body fat percentage that trains abs doesn't have good looking abs? haha
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You must not understand bodybuilding. If you saw any of those guys in person you'd say otherwise. Pictures and the lighting wash out a lot in pictures. If you think those guys don't have defined, shredded and developed abs you clearly don't know the sport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpDBm1-ct2M
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5 -
Funny how half this discussion turned into an ab debate, haha (chill with it). I'm going to start increasing my caloric intake as I think it's definitely reasonable that the deficit is a bit extreme and maybe even unnecessary. Anyone have any other advice for me? Changes to my work out? Or straight up going for a cut OR clean bulk? Let's say I'm at 18-19% bf today0
-
Sorry OP. RAD_fitness is someone who spouts misinformation off all the time then when gets confronted with actual evidence, scurries away like a whipped puppy. Had to bring out a rolled newspaper and do it again.kvfitnesslog wrote: »Funny how half this discussion turned into an ab debate, haha (chill with it). I'm going to start increasing my caloric intake as I think it's definitely reasonable that the deficit is a bit extreme and maybe even unnecessary. Anyone have any other advice for me? Changes to my work out? Or straight up going for a cut OR clean bulk? Let's say I'm at 18-19% bf today
Listen, if you're a female at 18% BF, you should have a hint of abdominal definition. If not, then either the reading is wrong or you just plain don't have any good skeletal muscle on your frame. And if that's the case, then I would head in the direction of actually trying to increase overall muscle mass with a program that designed for it. And "clean bulk" means nothing. If you're supplying enough protein and calories for muscle hypertrophy, you'll bulk up. You don't need to eat "clean" to do it and in many cases people can't train correctly because they feel always full due to "clean" foods being less calorie dense, but still needing to eat a larger volume to fulfill the calories needed to gain. Find a good progressive overload lifting program and implement it along with sufficient calories and you should be able to gain some muscle.
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5 -
OK, Still learning terms here since bodybuilding isn't really my thing/primary focus, but based on previous understanding I had thought "clean bulk" was closely synonymous with "slow bulk" 3500-5000 calorie weekly surplus vs dirty bulk/fast bulk being 7000-10K weekly.
Sorry OP. RAD_fitness is someone who spouts misinformation off all the time then when gets confronted with actual evidence, scurries away like a whipped puppy. Had to bring out a rolled newspaper and do it again.kvfitnesslog wrote: »Funny how half this discussion turned into an ab debate, haha (chill with it). I'm going to start increasing my caloric intake as I think it's definitely reasonable that the deficit is a bit extreme and maybe even unnecessary. Anyone have any other advice for me? Changes to my work out? Or straight up going for a cut OR clean bulk? Let's say I'm at 18-19% bf today
Listen, if you're a female at 18% BF, you should have a hint of abdominal definition. If not, then either the reading is wrong or you just plain don't have any good skeletal muscle on your frame. And if that's the case, then I would head in the direction of actually trying to increase overall muscle mass with a program that designed for it. And "clean bulk" means nothing. If you're supplying enough protein and calories for muscle hypertrophy, you'll bulk up. You don't need to eat "clean" to do it and in many cases people can't train correctly because they feel always full due to "clean" foods being less calorie dense, but still needing to eat a larger volume to fulfill the calories needed to gain. Find a good progressive overload lifting program and implement it along with sufficient calories and you should be able to gain some muscle.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »
OK, Still learning terms here since bodybuilding isn't really my thing/primary focus, but based on previous understanding I had thought "clean bulk" was closely synonymous with "slow bulk" 3500-5000 calorie weekly surplus vs dirty bulk/fast bulk being 7000-10K weekly.
Sorry OP. RAD_fitness is someone who spouts misinformation off all the time then when gets confronted with actual evidence, scurries away like a whipped puppy. Had to bring out a rolled newspaper and do it again.kvfitnesslog wrote: »Funny how half this discussion turned into an ab debate, haha (chill with it). I'm going to start increasing my caloric intake as I think it's definitely reasonable that the deficit is a bit extreme and maybe even unnecessary. Anyone have any other advice for me? Changes to my work out? Or straight up going for a cut OR clean bulk? Let's say I'm at 18-19% bf today
Listen, if you're a female at 18% BF, you should have a hint of abdominal definition. If not, then either the reading is wrong or you just plain don't have any good skeletal muscle on your frame. And if that's the case, then I would head in the direction of actually trying to increase overall muscle mass with a program that designed for it. And "clean bulk" means nothing. If you're supplying enough protein and calories for muscle hypertrophy, you'll bulk up. You don't need to eat "clean" to do it and in many cases people can't train correctly because they feel always full due to "clean" foods being less calorie dense, but still needing to eat a larger volume to fulfill the calories needed to gain. Find a good progressive overload lifting program and implement it along with sufficient calories and you should be able to gain some muscle.
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Different people use the term differently. But "your" definition is the one that's probably more common. However, since the OP - in the actual OP - mentions eating very clean, it's likely ninerbuff's use is what she means.
:shrug:3 -
Well, it's not mutually exclusive. "Clean" being less calorie dense foods and more whole, and "dirty" being more calorie dense and "processed" as well as "junk" food.stanmann571 wrote: »
OK, Still learning terms here since bodybuilding isn't really my thing/primary focus, but based on previous understanding I had thought "clean bulk" was closely synonymous with "slow bulk" 3500-5000 calorie weekly surplus vs dirty bulk/fast bulk being 7000-10K weekly.
Sorry OP. RAD_fitness is someone who spouts misinformation off all the time then when gets confronted with actual evidence, scurries away like a whipped puppy. Had to bring out a rolled newspaper and do it again.kvfitnesslog wrote: »Funny how half this discussion turned into an ab debate, haha (chill with it). I'm going to start increasing my caloric intake as I think it's definitely reasonable that the deficit is a bit extreme and maybe even unnecessary. Anyone have any other advice for me? Changes to my work out? Or straight up going for a cut OR clean bulk? Let's say I'm at 18-19% bf today
Listen, if you're a female at 18% BF, you should have a hint of abdominal definition. If not, then either the reading is wrong or you just plain don't have any good skeletal muscle on your frame. And if that's the case, then I would head in the direction of actually trying to increase overall muscle mass with a program that designed for it. And "clean bulk" means nothing. If you're supplying enough protein and calories for muscle hypertrophy, you'll bulk up. You don't need to eat "clean" to do it and in many cases people can't train correctly because they feel always full due to "clean" foods being less calorie dense, but still needing to eat a larger volume to fulfill the calories needed to gain. Find a good progressive overload lifting program and implement it along with sufficient calories and you should be able to gain some muscle.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Pizza isn't considered a "clean" food, yet I used it exclusively with my bulking process when I competed. It just gave me the calories and macros I needed and I didn't feel full all the time especially when it came to working out. One of the worst feelings to me in the world, is to work out and feel like my stomach is full and I'm ready to chuck it up. First I wasted that food and then I just can't get a decent workout in.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0
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