Proccessed Foods
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Yes, sodium benzoate is easy to pronounce...that one came to mind because I knew if off hand and didn't have to look it up to spell it.
Think of the old Bryers ice cream commercial with the little girl reading the ingredients. She reads the competition and can't pronounce the chemical names....she reads Bryers and reads "milk, cream, sugar..." This was my point.
How about those evil, evil fresh strawberries, then?:
You guys are blowing this way out of proportion and taking things way to far (the chemical breakdown of a strawberry?....really?) I was saying from the beginning was that I view processed foods as those which have a lot of chemical additives and preservatives .
I do not expect you to have to agree with me. It would be nice if you could respect my opinion...not agree with it, but understand that people view terms differently.
I expect this in every single processed foods thread. Sometimes it's an apple, sometimes a blueberry. I know you're talking about chemicals added by food manufacturers, not Mother Nature.
(Cue posts about arsenic or hemlock.)
@kshama2001 --
I think you are a really reasonable poster, as I noted above, and I also can tell from your posts in these threads that something about the comments on processed foods NOT being limited to ultra processed foods seems to bug you.
But wouldn't you agree that as the term is used it's (a) not correct (cheese is unquestionably processed, as is Breyer's ice cream, commercial aside), and (b) not all that helpful?
I find it confusing that some seem to promote eating NO processed foods without really knowing what they are (I even recall posts such as "are canned beans processed?" -- as if that's the question when deciding whether to eat them). It seems to be a proxy for "is this food good for me," when it's not.
I find it reasonable to avoid certain ingredients (although I'm sure there'd be debates on what they should be -- I'm not all that interested in getting into those, as I respect avoiding whatever you choose, including aspartame which I think is harmless, and mostly have never eaten foods that even have these unrecognizable ingredients that people claim to be worried about).
What I don't find reasonable is the fear that merely being "processed" in some way has bad effects beyond what one could see if one read the ingredients and nutrition facts (and looked stuff up if confused about what, say, sodium bicarbonate is).
Thus, I'm wondering if rather than being annoyed by the other side, maybe we could try to have a real discussion about this.
To begin: as I said above, I think often people use "processed" as a proxy for "not nutritious" and it's not that. Nor does it always have any kinds of arguably problematic ingredients or lots of sodium or fat or salt or soy or whatever. Read labels, I would say. I don't eat frozen meals because they don't appeal to me and my "in a crunch" thing is different, but I've looked at different ones from time to time (and bought them occasionally), and even with those -- or even with restaurant meals -- there are obviously huge variations, you cannot generalize.
Therefore, I think it is both better and more accurate (it's indisputably the latter) to use "processed" to mean what it means, and then focus on the specifics. As I keep saying, is what makes a pint of Talenti a bad thing to eat in one sitting (for most people) that it's "processed"? Or is it that that much gelato is high cal, and the exact same would be true with some ice cream I made at home and proceeded to consume in similar amounts?
Second point: I see talk about the evils of processed foods mainly from two groups. The first are people who until yesterday (or last week) ate lots and lots of basically junk food or fast food or high cal convenience foods that they are thinking of when they say they are giving up processed foods. That's great, but they should know that others who consume "processed" foods are not necessarily eating those foods or in those amounts anyway or unhealthy diets. Eating processed foods does not mean eating an unhealthy diet, and it's a much broader category than some (who had pretty limited diets often) seem to assume.
The second group are those who (somewhat like me, maybe) naturally tend to not eat a lot of ultra processed foods, to enjoy cooking, to already like lots of vegetables and so called healthy whole foods. We are lucky, often we have had access to things not everyone does (nice gardens, available affordable produce). But how we like to do it is a preference and as I said, to some extent a privilege. To apparently look down on other ways of doing it, to call other ways of eating inferior or not clean and so on really rubs me the wrong way and to some extent (from what I see around me) can even be very much a class thing (although I know lots of people who eat lots of home cooked whole foods are less economically advantaged and some who eat lots of ultra processed foods are more so, there's still a cultural and class element in the discussion in the US from what I see).
For these reasons I do think not just agreeing "yeah, processed foods are bad, yuck, they should be avoided" IS an important conversation to have, as is discussing why one can eat them in a healthful way and the many things the word covers.
Does this help you understand at all why I feel strongly about this conversation?
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your viewpoint in such a nice way. I really haven't heard the term 'ultra processed food' used before. I suppose this is the type of food I like to avoid...I just didn't know the right word. Thank you for your explanation.
I realize that most of the food I eat are processed in some way (milk, meat, yogurt, oats, etc) but these are not the foods I avoid. I like to try and avoid foods that are (apparently) ultra processed...food with a lot of man-made chemicals, preservatives and colorings (most of these man-made chemicals are relatively 'difficult to pronounce'...hence why I said it in my previous posts. I realize that not all of them are hard to pronounce...I was saying it as a generalization). I try and eat foods with few ingredients and 'natural' ingredients (yes I also realize natural is subjective and not all natural is healthy...again a generalization. I use my own research and discretion before buying products).
The OP asked "when you hear processed food what comes to mind." She didn't ask what processed food was...I believe she was asking for opinions which is exactly what I gave. I stated what I consider procesed food for me in my life.
I buy romaine lettuce, kale, potatoes, yogurt etc. Are these processed? Technically yes, but I don't consider them processed when I say I'm limiting my processed food intake.
Thanks for being willing to enter into a discussion!
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.
I suppose in my head I do consider SOME procesed food to be bad. I say 'some' because some are not full of preservatives etc (cottage cheese, yogurt, oats, beans, cheese,to name a few).
I realize that just about everything bought in a grocery store is processed in some way. If it has a bacode, it's pretty much processed...and not everything with barcode is unhealthy. I generally like to stick to the perimeter of the store to avoid much of the "ultra processed" foods in the aisles. So to use the term you mentioned, I prefer to avoid/limit 'ultra processed food.'
Do I eat what I consider to be 'bad' ultra processed foods? Yes I do, but I do try to limit my quantity especially when my goal is to eat healthier. I'm not above going to Trader Joe's when I don't want to cook and buying a frozen dinner or cooking a frozen pizza etc....I just don't make it a frequent or daily habit.
I love to cook and cook 90% of my own meals, but I'm not above buying canned tomatoes (even though I know the can lining has chemicals) or pasta sauce, pasta, beans etc. When shopping Im always reading labels trying to find the healthiest option/ingredients.
It makes sense now when you say you don't think of foods in a category that you don't eat...only foods you do eat which fall into that category. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...Since i am new to the term, I think the term I have been describing would be "ultra processed foods" since these are the ones with the food additives, chemicals, colorings and preservatives...correct?
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me instead of just telling me I'm wrong and uninformed on the subject. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and whatever works for you is what you should go with.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Anything that happens to a food after it is picked or separated in some way from the animal source is processing.
Some processing is good and makes for fine products (think things like cottage cheese, yogurt), and other processing makes food that's fun and enjoyable but isn't super nutrient dense (like Reese's cups).
Avoiding "processed" foods is "in" right now, but I find it's a meaningless metric that unnecessarily demonizes perfectly good foods.
Well said, agree 100%.
Makes you think, though...we have a food processor in our kitchen at home. So if I use that to prepare a meal, does that mean it's now processed food???
O Noes!!!1!1!1
Yes, but it usually makes it taste better and always makes it easier to chew. (full disclosure: my food processor is most often used for turning tomatoes into soup, & making pie crust.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.
I suppose in my head I do consider SOME procesed food to be bad. I say 'some' because some are not full of preservatives etc (cottage cheese, yogurt, oats, beans, cheese,to name a few).
I realize that just about everything bought in a grocery store is processed in some way. If it has a bacode, it's pretty much processed...and not everything with barcode is unhealthy. I generally like to stick to the perimeter of the store to avoid much of the "ultra processed" foods in the aisles. So to use the term you mentioned, I prefer to avoid/limit 'ultra processed food.'
Do I eat what I consider to be 'bad' ultra processed foods? Yes I do, but I do try to limit my quantity especially when my goal is to eat healthier. I'm not above going to Trader Joe's when I don't want to cook and buying a frozen dinner or cooking a frozen pizza etc....I just don't make it a frequent or daily habit.
I love to cook and cook 90% of my own meals, but I'm not above buying canned tomatoes (even though I know the can lining has chemicals) or pasta sauce, pasta, beans etc. When shopping Im always reading labels trying to find the healthiest option/ingredients.
It makes sense now when you say you don't think of foods in a category that you don't eat...only foods you do eat which fall into that category. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...Since i am new to the term, I think the term I have been describing would be "ultra processed foods" since these are the ones with the food additives, chemicals, colorings and preservatives...correct?
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me instead of just telling me I'm wrong and uninformed on the subject. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and whatever works for you is what you should go with.
Can you name some of the chemicals though? This is where I get stuck. A blanket assertion about chemicals and preservatives and their negative impact on the body. What are those and do you have proof/links to studies confirming this?3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.
I suppose in my head I do consider SOME procesed food to be bad. I say 'some' because some are not full of preservatives etc (cottage cheese, yogurt, oats, beans, cheese,to name a few).
I realize that just about everything bought in a grocery store is processed in some way. If it has a bacode, it's pretty much processed...and not everything with barcode is unhealthy. I generally like to stick to the perimeter of the store to avoid much of the "ultra processed" foods in the aisles. So to use the term you mentioned, I prefer to avoid/limit 'ultra processed food.'
Do I eat what I consider to be 'bad' ultra processed foods? Yes I do, but I do try to limit my quantity especially when my goal is to eat healthier. I'm not above going to Trader Joe's when I don't want to cook and buying a frozen dinner or cooking a frozen pizza etc....I just don't make it a frequent or daily habit.
I love to cook and cook 90% of my own meals, but I'm not above buying canned tomatoes (even though I know the can lining has chemicals) or pasta sauce, pasta, beans etc. When shopping Im always reading labels trying to find the healthiest option/ingredients.
It makes sense now when you say you don't think of foods in a category that you don't eat...only foods you do eat which fall into that category. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...Since i am new to the term, I think the term I have been describing would be "ultra processed foods" since these are the ones with the food additives, chemicals, colorings and preservatives...correct?
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me instead of just telling me I'm wrong and uninformed on the subject. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and whatever works for you is what you should go with.
On ultra processed foods, I find the term a bit confusing in what it is supposed to convey, but this may help both of us (from http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092752, about the Brazilian guidelines and reasons for them):In recent years a classification of foodstuffs based on the extent, nature and purpose of food processing has been developed, and results based on the classification have been published. This divides foodstuffs into three groups. These are foods that are either fresh or minimally processed; processed culinary ingredients; and ready-to-consume food products, either processed or ultra-processed. Processed products are whole foods preserved with salt, sugar or oil or by other methods such as smoking or curing. Ultra-processed products are essentially industrial formulations mostly or entirely made from industrial ingredients, typically containing little or no whole foods.
Studies in different countries show that ready-to-consume food products (processed or ultra-processed) taken together as a group, when compared with foods combined with processed culinary ingredients as made into dishes and meals, on average are more energy-dense, are higher in total fat, saturated fats, sugars and salt, and are lower in protein and dietary fiber. Ultra-processed products in particular typically have properties that are conductive to overconsumption: they are often hyper-palatable and sold in large portion sizes; are durable and easy to transport and therefore liable to be consumed as snacks at any time and in almost any place; and are often marketed intensively and persuasively.
There is therefore reason to believe that high consumption of ready-to-consume food products in general, is a cause of weight gain, obesity and associated disorders and diseases....
My bolding, because I want to make a point here. Like I said, I don't really eat these foods at all, as it's just not how I've ever eaten. But how they stack up on calories and added fat and sodium and sugar and the like varies a lot. Way back I gave an example of an Amy's frozen meal and I think that would be considered ultra processed, but it's really not bad nutritionally (or ingredient wise) and wouldn't be the same as some other such meals (and could stack up well against some home cooked meals).
My personal view is the reason eating lots of ultra processed foods correlates with gaining weight is NOT that they have specific ingredients that cause that, but that they are really easy to overeat (high cal, easy availability -- it's way more work to make a pie vs. buying a frozen one, even if the homemade one is no better calorie wise and tastes better), and often are marketed as snack foods (eat them in addition to regular meals).
SOME preservatives (as preservatives include just salt) are in even minimally processed foods, but to finally answer your question, yes, I think what you mean are ultra processed foods.
I do avoid specific ingredients, as I said, one such being palm oil, since I think it's environmentally problematic, any transfats/partially hydrogenated oils (although they are not that common), largely industrial seed oils, I eat soy but generally prefer not to have it added to my food in other ways, same with corn, I think using sugar vs. HFCS usually is a good sign of a sweet that is going to taste better anyway, so on. For me most of this is not health related (I don't eat any of this enough to be too concerned about that, and I do generally think most additives are probably fine -- many of them are just vitamin supplements even -- I just prefer whole foods based meals more often, although I am definitely not 100% on any of this).
I wonder to some extent if these discussions end up more contentious than they should be just because people use words differently. To me (a literalist, as noted above, and an all or nothing type), saying "I avoid eating whatever" means I NEVER eat it, and saying that sort of thing is a good way to make myself feel bad or like I failed if I do. When I cut out added sugar for a month, I obsessively read labels and avoided de minimis amounts, even though logically that made no sense to me, because that was what I was doing, darn it!
To others, I get the sense that "I avoid whatever" means they try not to make it a significant part of their diet, but if they end up having it, eh, no biggie. So perhaps that's why some people tend to read "I think X is fine in moderation" or "I don't avoid it, but consume it in the context of a healthful diet" to mean "I eat that most days!" ;-)
Does that make any sense?
Anyway, I base my diet on whole foods, and read labels and generally if I don't know what something is (which is rare with the labels I read), I look it up and decide it I am interested in consuming it.3 -
There was a study about Ultra-processed foods and obesity in Brazil (link if interested http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092752 )..... The main reason I share is that I like the way they categorized foods, as fresh/minimally processed, processed, and ultra-processed. It seems the OP is good with the first two but not the third.
From the study:
Subsequently, the food items were classified into three groups, according to the nature, extent and purpose of industrial processing used in their manufacture [11], [12]. The first group is of foods, either fresh or minimally processed. Examples are grains (also known as cereals), and roots and tubers; legumes (pulses); fruits and vegetables; nuts and seeds; meat, fish, poultry and eggs; milk and natural yogurt. The second group is of processed culinary ingredients used with foods in the preparation of dishes. These are substances extracted from whole foods. Examples are flours and starches; oils and sugars; and salt (extracted from nature). The third group, the main subject of this study, is of ready-to-consume products. These are either processed or ultra-processed.
Processed products are made from foods with the addition of substances such as salt, sugar or oil, and the use of processes such as smoking or curing. Examples include canned or bottled vegetables and legumes preserved in brine; fruits preserved in syrup; tinned fish preserved in oil or salted and smoked; salted and smoked meats; and cheese.
Ultra-processed products are formulated predominantly or entirely from industrial ingredients, and typically contain little or no whole food. They often contain preservatives and cosmetic and other additives, and may also contain synthetic vitamins and minerals. Examples include: cake mixes, ‘energy’ bars; ‘instant’ packaged soups and noodles; many types of sweetened breads and buns, cakes, biscuits, pastries and desserts; chips (crisps); and very many other types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; sugared milk and fruit drinks, soft drinks and ‘energy’ drinks; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable or cheese dishes, pizza and pasta dishes, burgers, French fries (chips), and poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); bread and other cereal products; hot dogs and other products made with scraps or remnants of meat; preserves (jams), sauces, meat, yeast and other extracts; ice-cream, chocolates, cookies (biscuits), candies (confectionery); margarines; canned or dehydrated soups; and infant formulas, follow-on milks and baby products.
Edit: typos0 -
As a personal experiment this month, I've made a couple home-made batches of Soylent.
https://www.completefoods.co/diy/recipes/brets-soylent-oat-rice-complete-low-price
If I mixed it up myself, is it processed?
Since the oats and rice (the main ingredients) are ground fine, heck everything is ground fine, I find the resulting shake to be highly palatable. It also seems to fill me up (fiber content and fat). It also is highly digestible. I feel a bit like chick being fed pre-digested pap. I wonder if I depended on this formulation too much if I might lose my ability to, say, digest a well-done steak.
I think this sort of food would fit the "ultra processed" description in the Brazilian guidelines.1 -
There was a study about Ultra-processed foods and obesity in Brazil (link if interested http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092752 )..... The main reason I share is that I like the way they categorized foods, as fresh/minimally processed, processed, and ultra-processed. It seems the OP is good with the first two but not the third.
That's the same one I was talking about/quoting from in my post just before yours!
(No clue what OP is or is not good with, she doesn't seem to be around.)1 -
Random thought about this, though. After my "I mostly don't eat ultra processed foods anyway" stuff, I had protein powder in my smoothie this morning, and some boxed coconut milk. I'd tend to classify both as ultra processed (although I am not 100% sure about the latter).
But looking at the Brazil thing: "ready-to-consume food products (processed or ultra-processed) taken together as a group, when compared with foods combined with processed culinary ingredients as made into dishes and meals, on average are more energy-dense, are higher in total fat, saturated fats, sugars and salt, and are lower in protein and dietary fiber."
This is not really true with either the whey or the coconut milk.Ultra-processed products in particular typically have properties that are conductive to overconsumption: they are often hyper-palatable and sold in large portion sizes; are durable and easy to transport and therefore liable to be consumed as snacks at any time and in almost any place; and are often marketed intensively and persuasively.
I don't believe any of this is true either, however I classify them.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Random thought about this, though. After my "I mostly don't eat ultra processed foods anyway" stuff, I had protein powder in my smoothie this morning, and some boxed coconut milk. I'd tend to classify both as ultra processed (although I am not 100% sure about the latter).
But looking at the Brazil thing: "ready-to-consume food products (processed or ultra-processed) taken together as a group, when compared with foods combined with processed culinary ingredients as made into dishes and meals, on average are more energy-dense, are higher in total fat, saturated fats, sugars and salt, and are lower in protein and dietary fiber."
This is not really true with either the whey or the coconut milk.Ultra-processed products in particular typically have properties that are conductive to overconsumption: they are often hyper-palatable and sold in large portion sizes; are durable and easy to transport and therefore liable to be consumed as snacks at any time and in almost any place; and are often marketed intensively and persuasively.
I don't believe any of this is true either, however I classify them.
I thought about protein powder when I was reading the Brazilian guidelines. I would think fits ultra-processed going by their initial description, but as you read on, it doesn't fit into the neat little box.
This is the trouble inherent in trying to have a label for everything you do, I think.
I think it's far simpler to say that there are ingredients that for whatever reason, you prefer to avoid, and that you don't eat food with those ingredients. That is a simple, direct statement that doesn't really open itself up to debate. It's also fairly accurate without sounding moralistic.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.
I suppose in my head I do consider SOME procesed food to be bad. I say 'some' because some are not full of preservatives etc (cottage cheese, yogurt, oats, beans, cheese,to name a few).
I realize that just about everything bought in a grocery store is processed in some way. If it has a bacode, it's pretty much processed...and not everything with barcode is unhealthy. I generally like to stick to the perimeter of the store to avoid much of the "ultra processed" foods in the aisles. So to use the term you mentioned, I prefer to avoid/limit 'ultra processed food.'
Do I eat what I consider to be 'bad' ultra processed foods? Yes I do, but I do try to limit my quantity especially when my goal is to eat healthier. I'm not above going to Trader Joe's when I don't want to cook and buying a frozen dinner or cooking a frozen pizza etc....I just don't make it a frequent or daily habit.
I love to cook and cook 90% of my own meals, but I'm not above buying canned tomatoes (even though I know the can lining has chemicals) or pasta sauce, pasta, beans etc. When shopping Im always reading labels trying to find the healthiest option/ingredients.
It makes sense now when you say you don't think of foods in a category that you don't eat...only foods you do eat which fall into that category. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...Since i am new to the term, I think the term I have been describing would be "ultra processed foods" since these are the ones with the food additives, chemicals, colorings and preservatives...correct?
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me instead of just telling me I'm wrong and uninformed on the subject. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and whatever works for you is what you should go with.
On ultra processed foods, I find the term a bit confusing in what it is supposed to convey, but this may help both of us (from http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092752, about the Brazilian guidelines and reasons for them):In recent years a classification of foodstuffs based on the extent, nature and purpose of food processing has been developed, and results based on the classification have been published. This divides foodstuffs into three groups. These are foods that are either fresh or minimally processed; processed culinary ingredients; and ready-to-consume food products, either processed or ultra-processed. Processed products are whole foods preserved with salt, sugar or oil or by other methods such as smoking or curing. Ultra-processed products are essentially industrial formulations mostly or entirely made from industrial ingredients, typically containing little or no whole foods.
Studies in different countries show that ready-to-consume food products (processed or ultra-processed) taken together as a group, when compared with foods combined with processed culinary ingredients as made into dishes and meals, on average are more energy-dense, are higher in total fat, saturated fats, sugars and salt, and are lower in protein and dietary fiber. Ultra-processed products in particular typically have properties that are conductive to overconsumption: they are often hyper-palatable and sold in large portion sizes; are durable and easy to transport and therefore liable to be consumed as snacks at any time and in almost any place; and are often marketed intensively and persuasively.
There is therefore reason to believe that high consumption of ready-to-consume food products in general, is a cause of weight gain, obesity and associated disorders and diseases....
My bolding, because I want to make a point here. Like I said, I don't really eat these foods at all, as it's just not how I've ever eaten. But how they stack up on calories and added fat and sodium and sugar and the like varies a lot. Way back I gave an example of an Amy's frozen meal and I think that would be considered ultra processed, but it's really not bad nutritionally (or ingredient wise) and wouldn't be the same as some other such meals (and could stack up well against some home cooked meals).
My personal view is the reason eating lots of ultra processed foods correlates with gaining weight is NOT that they have specific ingredients that cause that, but that they are really easy to overeat (high cal, easy availability -- it's way more work to make a pie vs. buying a frozen one, even if the homemade one is no better calorie wise and tastes better), and often are marketed as snack foods (eat them in addition to regular meals).
SOME preservatives (as preservatives include just salt) are in even minimally processed foods, but to finally answer your question, yes, I think what you mean are ultra processed foods.
I do avoid specific ingredients, as I said, one such being palm oil, since I think it's environmentally problematic, any transfats/partially hydrogenated oils (although they are not that common), largely industrial seed oils, I eat soy but generally prefer not to have it added to my food in other ways, same with corn, I think using sugar vs. HFCS usually is a good sign of a sweet that is going to taste better anyway, so on. For me most of this is not health related (I don't eat any of this enough to be too concerned about that, and I do generally think most additives are probably fine -- many of them are just vitamin supplements even -- I just prefer whole foods based meals more often, although I am definitely not 100% on any of this).
I wonder to some extent if these discussions end up more contentious than they should be just because people use words differently. To me (a literalist, as noted above, and an all or nothing type), saying "I avoid eating whatever" means I NEVER eat it, and saying that sort of thing is a good way to make myself feel bad or like I failed if I do. When I cut out added sugar for a month, I obsessively read labels and avoided de minimis amounts, even though logically that made no sense to me, because that was what I was doing, darn it!
To others, I get the sense that "I avoid whatever" means they try not to make it a significant part of their diet, but if they end up having it, eh, no biggie. So perhaps that's why some people tend to read "I think X is fine in moderation" or "I don't avoid it, but consume it in the context of a healthful diet" to mean "I eat that most days!" ;-)
Does that make any sense?
Anyway, I base my diet on whole foods, and read labels and generally if I don't know what something is (which is rare with the labels I read), I look it up and decide it I am interested in consuming it.
This makes a lot of sense. I'm beginning to realize that we agree on more than I thought, just have different ways of expressing it.
When I say I like to avoid a certain type of food, I generally mean I try to not eat it and will choose a different option if available, but do eat it on occasion (hfcs...I won't buy products with it in them, but I'll occasionally have a treat at work that I'm sure has it in there.) There are certain things I just won't eat...artificial sweeteners for example. I know there is a huge debate on these, but it I'm from the side that believes they are harmful and would rather have real sugar. No real changing my mind on this one.
The Brazilian guidelines you quoted pretty much sum up what I follow. I'm not 100% one way or another...there are usually exceptions to the food guidelines I follow, but generally speaking I try to avoid ultra processed when possible (not always).5 -
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p14 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.6 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
This shows you haven't taken time to vet sources or understand shortcomings of some studies.
To elaborate. One of the most well-known "it's eviiiiiiil" studies that "proved" it causes cancer had rats that get cancer from a stiff breeze fed amounts of sweetener equal to multiple gallons of diet soda every single day of their natural life starting at 3 months old.8 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
I really don't want this thread to become another artificial sweetener debate and I don't care if you consume them or not, but I think the reason VintageFeline posted the link is because you didn't just say that you are not going to consume them, but that you believe they are harmful. That they are harmful is a factual claim (different from "I think sweetened coffee is weird and ruins the coffee -- which is a taste preference), so you will get responses. In this case, just a link to a thread where the topic has been discussed at great length (and which is actually pretty interesting).
For the record, I don't drink that much diet soda, but I do drink it occasionally and invariably, EVERY time I am consuming one someone tells me "you know, that causes Alzheimers" or whatever the thing of the day is (cancer before, I suppose). It's slightly annoying, especially since I certainly never tell anyone else to consume it. I also have to pay 1 cent per oz in taxes on it (plus 3% in addition), because it's allegedly bad for you, even though the evidence for that is weak.
But eh, I don't really care (this is discussed in the soda tax thread). I do think it means that it's fair game to cite and link to the evidence that it's actually fine.2 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.10 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
That looks like a brilliantly objective, science based website *nods*11 -
*Hears the phrase “Vet your sources” echoing in her brain.*6
-
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Um...
(cue awkward moment...)
4 -
Wynterbourne wrote: »*Hears the phrase “Vet your sources” echoing in her brain.*
It's kind of painful isn't it.2 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf5 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf
"Harriett H. Butchko Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt. Prospect, Illinois"
LOL, but, really, there are tons of studies on aspartame out there that state it is safe, how did you manage to find a 15 years old one, published in a journal with an impact factor of 1.68, whose lead author is an employee of a company (division of Monsanto) that produces artificial sweeteners? Are you for real?
5 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf
"Harriett H. Butchko Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt. Prospect, Illinois"
LOL, but, really, there are tons of studies on aspartame out there that state it is safe, how did you manage to find a 15 years old one, published in a journal with an impact factor of 1.68, whose lead author is an employee of a company (division of Monsanto) that produces artificial sweeteners? Are you for real?
Did you happen to see the voluminous number of studies referenced in the paper? Feel free to look any/all of them up if you have the time and inclination.5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.
Uhhhh...When I say I like to avoid a certain type of food, I generally mean I try to not eat it and will choose a different option if available, but do eat it on occasion (hfcs...I won't buy products with it in them, but I'll occasionally have a treat at work that I'm sure has it in there.) There are certain things I just won't eat...artificial sweeteners for example. I know there is a huge debate on these, but it I'm from the side that believes they are harmful and would rather have real sugar. No real changing my mind on this one.
The Brazilian guidelines you quoted pretty much sum up what I follow. I'm not 100% one way or another...there are usually exceptions to the food guidelines I follow, but generally speaking I try to avoid ultra processed when possible (not always).4. Artificial sweeteners are not healthy and the long term effects have yet to be fully discovered and understood. I will never consume them. Those that feel they are safe are 100% free to do so (I will not stop you or comment). Though In 30 years I hope it turns out you were right all along...for your sake.
5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.
1) Because they are.
2) Because you aren't the only person reading this.
That you choose to - for whatever reason - not use aspartame is one thing. That's totally your decision. But to try to dissuade others from doing so without any credible and scientifically proven reasons not to is the exact reason you're getting this pushback.
Aspartame has helped a lot of people reduce their caloric intake dramatically and aided them in reaching and maintaining a healthy weight. To attempt to fear-monger this option off their table is disingenuous at least and ill-informed at best.
6 -
megpie, if you think the MFP community is not adequately focused on nutrition and don't want to debate the merits of ultra processed foods or artificial sweeteners, you might enjoy one of the threads on vegetables and fruit, like http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10586673/how-many-different-fruits-and-veggies-did-you-eat-today#latest
We don't talk about what we do eat, but do act as boosters for our favorite produce sometimes, and IMO it's a lot more important for health to focus on what you do eat (and to include nutrient dense foods like vegetables) than to fret about whether boxed coconut milk (which is probably not a significant part of most people's diets) is ultra processed or not or whether an Oreo is worse for you than a homemade snickerdoodle.* If you have decided that posters who say that "clean eating" is not really a thing or not important must not care about nutrition or eat terrible diets, it might give you more perspective on that too.
*I'm not saying those other discussions can't be fun too, of course! ;-)3 -
alabove2017 wrote: »When you hear the words processed foods what comes to mind. Food processing or package processing?
Food processing. I don't consider putting a whole food in a package as processing. When I hear "processed foods" I think of foods that have been altered in some way from their natural whole state.1 -
Honestly, I don't care who does or doesn't choose to consume aspartame. I'm not much of a consumer myself and also use "real" sugar and sweeteners instead for their various flavours (honey, maple syrup, white sugar, golden caster. Golden castor is brilliant for giving meringues a slightly caramel flavour FYI).
What I do care about is the spread of misinformation and the potential for that to set people up for failure. Much like the whole clean eating thing, people suddenly feel like they have to cut out cookies and cake and pizza and all sorts of other things because they're unhealthy. And then they can't sustain it, eat a bunch of the forbidden foods and give up altogether.
So if people want to consume one of the most studied (or is it actually THE most studied, I forget) food products that has been found to be safe then have at it.
And I read a good chunk of the link you provided, though not the list of abstracts because it was late and I had a date with my bed and Ru Paul; much of it was all speculative correlation. Which isn't causation. Not even close.0
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