Protein Intake
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If you're interested in the research:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1brVrvxN4E
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carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
still no explaination sorry...please link the studies...on how just eating protein in sufficient quantities helps minimize lbm loss...
You can use Google just like I did.
of course I could but you are the one asserting bogus information the onus of proof is on you...as I would love to see a study that indicates that...you know learning etc.
but I expect this is done and I will continue one with my understanding that extra protein will help keep you feeling fuller but it will not build muscle with another stimulus such as a progressive load lifting program.
Such a shame to let pride and arrogance keep you from learning because someone refused to do the work for you6 -
carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
still no explaination sorry...please link the studies...on how just eating protein in sufficient quantities helps minimize lbm loss...
You can use Google just like I did.
of course I could but you are the one asserting bogus information the onus of proof is on you...as I would love to see a study that indicates that...you know learning etc.
but I expect this is done and I will continue one with my understanding that extra protein will help keep you feeling fuller but it will not build muscle with another stimulus such as a progressive load lifting program.
Such a shame to let pride and arrogance keep you from learning because someone refused to do the work for you
lol..really...if you already did it you would have it at hand...in your history...but no worries I won't let it deter me...
I have a few sources of information at my disposal..0 -
carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
still no explaination sorry...please link the studies...on how just eating protein in sufficient quantities helps minimize lbm loss...
You can use Google just like I did.
of course I could but you are the one asserting bogus information the onus of proof is on you...as I would love to see a study that indicates that...you know learning etc.
but I expect this is done and I will continue one with my understanding that extra protein will help keep you feeling fuller but it will not build muscle with another stimulus such as a progressive load lifting program.
Such a shame to let pride and arrogance keep you from learning because someone refused to do the work for you
You don't get to make a claim, then accuse someone of pride and arrogance when they expect you to back it up. Make the claim, the onus is on you.5 -
petergreis wrote: »If you're interested in the research:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1brVrvxN4E
I listened to this and no where does it say getting in extra protein will build muscle without exercise.
Actually what he said was eating enough protein and doing some form of resistance training will prevent muscle loss while losing weight...in some individuals...there are chances of losing only fat with enough protein...
so again eating protein is not a bad idea when losing weight for reasons such as feeling fuller longer etc but it does not build muscle without some form of stimulus.
AT minute 19 he speaks about how ingestion of protein after fasting overnight leads to protein synthesis happen in which we are building small amounts of muscle...he did however say that it was so small it couldn't be measured...but right after this happens you have protein degredation in which you are losing muscle...such a small amount it can't be measured so the net effect makes it all moot.
So I still contend that just consuming protein does not build muscle that you need an external stimulus such as weight lifting to force muscle tears that the consumed protein helps repair by build more muscle in those tears...and that is in fact how muscle is built.
Yah so I am done with this foolishness...if you asset something that contravenes known science be prepared to back it up with studies...peer reviewed studies...no blogs from paleo tree or livestrong or the phase "google it"...smh.
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I don't think anyone is saying that increased protein builds muscle without exercise, but that increased protein can help protect against muscle loss (so that the proportion of muscle lost is less) even without exercise too, although of course also adding strength exercises is ideal and what I would recommend.
At least that's what I have read, and what I see rybo saying below.carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
Interesting that the NHS is saying you should not go above 90 g for a woman and 110 g for a man, especially as that's not even a consistent recommendation (they elsewhere say that the recommendation not to go above 2x of is .75 x weight in kg, not that there's a set number for men and women). Indeed, the idea of a set number for men and women is silly. In trying to research the basis for this, I get that they admit the evidence for harm is weak (unless you have preexisting kidney problems, and even then I suspect the level for harm is much higher), but they ignore the evidence of positive effects and mostly seem focused on convincing people they don't need supplements, when of course one does not need to be consuming supplements to get above those numbers.
Any other thoughts on this?3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't think anyone is saying that increased protein builds muscle without exercise, but that increased protein can help protect against muscle loss (so that the proportion of muscle lost is less) even without exercise too, although of course also adding strength exercises is ideal and what I would recommend.
At least that's what I have read, and what I see rybo saying below.carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
Interesting that the NHS is saying you should not go above 90 g for a woman and 110 g for a man, especially as that's not even a consistent recommendation (they elsewhere say that the recommendation not to go above 2x of is .75 x weight in kg, not that there's a set number for men and women). Indeed, the idea of a set number for men and women is silly. In trying to research the basis for this, I get that they admit the evidence for harm is weak (unless you have preexisting kidney problems, and even then I suspect the level for harm is much higher), but they ignore the evidence of positive effects and mostly seem focused on convincing people they don't need supplements, when of course one does not need to be consuming supplements to get above those numbers.
Any other thoughts on this?
I asked for proof that just protein itself will help preserve muscle mass...I didn't get any...they did say after to add in resistance training....i acknowledged that but he insisted that just protein was enough...I don't believe it.
I was always under the impression that to prevent muscle loss you need to use the muscle...aka weight train.
Not just eating protein...and the video linked in basically said the same thing...you need both not just protein0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't think anyone is saying that increased protein builds muscle without exercise, but that increased protein can help protect against muscle loss (so that the proportion of muscle lost is less) even without exercise too, although of course also adding strength exercises is ideal and what I would recommend.
At least that's what I have read, and what I see rybo saying below.carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
Interesting that the NHS is saying you should not go above 90 g for a woman and 110 g for a man, especially as that's not even a consistent recommendation (they elsewhere say that the recommendation not to go above 2x of is .75 x weight in kg, not that there's a set number for men and women). Indeed, the idea of a set number for men and women is silly. In trying to research the basis for this, I get that they admit the evidence for harm is weak (unless you have preexisting kidney problems, and even then I suspect the level for harm is much higher), but they ignore the evidence of positive effects and mostly seem focused on convincing people they don't need supplements, when of course one does not need to be consuming supplements to get above those numbers.
Any other thoughts on this?
I asked for proof that just protein itself will help preserve muscle mass...I didn't get any...they did say after to add in resistance training....i acknowledged that but he insisted that just protein was enough...I don't believe it.
I was always under the impression that to prevent muscle loss you need to use the muscle...aka weight train.
Not just eating protein...and the video linked in basically said the same thing...you need both not just protein
Here's one study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22691622
More fat loss vs. muscle at higher protein levels.
This is a different situation, since it's about the elderly sedentary vs. people at a calorie deficit, but again increased protein can be protective: www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/8/7/404/pdf
If you think about it, it makes sense, as even a sedentary person or a person who exercises only with cardio is going to be breaking down muscle, and having more protein would make it easier to repair it.
I don't think more protein is always good (I tend to recommend around .8 g/lb of a healthy goal weight or perhaps 1.5 g/kg of same), but in that it also has satiating effects and the possible benefits of higher levels have not really been studied that much and there's likely no harm if one has a decent balanced diet (at low calories I would not try for a very high protein level, and I would not try for a level that felt difficult or miserable). But I think there can be benefits even if one is not doing a progressive strength building program (although I'd recommend weight training or similar kinds of exercise, of course).3 -
gebeziseva wrote: »gebeziseva wrote: »carriesheph wrote: »@gebeziseva thanks for your response. I can do 100g but if I do my weight 126 ib it's very difficult. Y other challenge is trying to cut carbs as much as I can. I love pasta, rice and breads, ugh
I would recommend 100gr protein regardless of your weight. You won't be able to assimilate more than that anyway.
In fact even 100gr might be too much.
100g regardless of weight? You can't assimilate more than 100g of protein anyway? Please educate yourself first before ever giving anyone advice.
I have educated myself.
From the site of NHS (UK's national health service):
"The Department of Health advises adults to avoid consuming more than twice the recommended daily intake of protein (55.5g for men and 45g for women)."
Edited to add:
The quote comes right after this sentence:
"There is also evidence that, in the long term, consuming too much protein can lead to an increased risk of osteoporosis and can also worsen existing kidney problems. "
First of all quoting the NHS is not educating yourself. I would love to see the studies that show eating 45g of protein for a woman regardless of weight is recommended. Oh right, there are none.
Regards to osteoporosis: "In the studies where dietary protein intake was found to have a negative impact on bone health, there were other dietary factors playing a role. Calcium or Vitamin D intake may have been insufficient causing an overall negative effect. However, when sufficient calcium and Vitamin D are provided (as they typically are following bone injury), dietary protein has a beneficial impact."
Regards to kidney problems:" A common criticism of high protein intakes/diets is the concern that they are damaging to the kidneys. This belief seems to stem from the fact that, in individuals with preexisting kidney damage, protein intake often has to be reduced to prevent further development of the disease. Incorrectly, this has been turned around to suggest that high-protein intakes are damaging to the kidneys (1)."
"There is at best a weak case to be made for a risk of high protein intakes on kidney function; quite in fact, some research suggesting a beneficial effect of higher protein intakes on kidney function (2). Simply put, the adaptations to kidney function that are often cited as indicating ‘strain’ or damage are more likely to simply be normal adaptive effects of varying protein intake (1)."
Oh and here are some real studies done, this is what I meant when I said "educate yourself"
References:
1.Martin WF et. al. Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutr Metab (2005) 2: 25.
2.Millward DJ. Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet. Proc Nutr Soc. (1999) 58(2): 403-13.
3.Poortmans JR and Dellalieux O. Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes? Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. (2000) 10(1):28-38.
4.Dawson-Hughes B. Calcium and protein in bone health. Proc Nutr Soc. (2003) 62(2): 505-9.
5.Bonjour JP. Dietary protein: an essential nutrient for bone health. J Am Coll Nutr. (2005) 24(6 Suppl): 526S-36S.
6.Massey LK. Dietary animal and plant protein and human bone health: a whole foods approach. J Nutr. (2003) 133(3):862S-865S.
7.Dawson-Hughes B. Interaction of dietary calcium and protein in bone health in humans. J Nutr. (2003) 133(3):852S-854S.
8.Frassetto L et. al. Diet, evolution and aging–the pathophysiologic effects of the post-agricultural inversion of the potassium-to-sodium and base-to-chloride ratios in the human diet. Eur J Nutr. (2001) 40(5):200-13.
9.Wiederkehr M, Krapf R. Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans. Swiss Med Wkly. (2001) 131(9-10):127-32.
10.Barzel US and LK Massey Excess dietary protein can adversely affect bone. J Nutr. (1998) 128(6):1051-3.
11.Fogelholm M. Dairy products, meat and sports performance. Sports Med. (2003) 33(8):615-31.
12.Sabate J. The contribution of vegetarian diets to human health. Forum Nutr. (2003) 56:218-20. 13. Li D et. al. Lean meat and heart health. Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. (2005) 14(2):113-9.
13.Hodgson JM et. al. Increased lean red meat intake does not elevate markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in humans. J Nutr. (2007) 137(2):363-7. Links
14.Biesalski HK.Meat and cancer: meat as a component of a healthy diet.
15.Eur J Clin Nutr. (2002) 56 Suppl 1:S2-11.
16.Hodgson JM et. al. Partial substitution of carbohydrate intake with protein intake from lean red meat lowers blood pressure in hypertensive persons.Am J Clin Nutr. (2006) 83(4):780-7.
17.Hill M. Meat, cancer and dietary advice to the public. Eur J Clin Nutr. (2002) 56 Suppl 1:S36-41
18.Elmadfa I, Freisling H. Fat intake, diet variety and health promotion. Forum Nutr. (2005) (57):1-10.
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Lyle McDonald:
"After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories."8 -
Lyle McDonald:
"After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories."
And Eric Helms, reflecting upon his past 5 years of Protein Studies: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/reflecting-on-five-years-studying-protein/"...However, new research is being published that is relevant to dieters. Antonio conducted a series of studies (1, 2, 3, 4) in which he pitted very high protein intakes (~3-4.4g/kg) against “normal” high intakes (~1.8-2.2g/kg). In aggregate, they found that less fat mass was gained in the very high protein groups compared to the semi-high protein groups, even when the subjects attempted to follow a caloric surplus. This implies that perhaps protein intakes above traditionally recommended ranges could be useful due to their effects on TDEE and satiety. However, research directly investigating calorically restricted lifters is needed to confirm this supposition.
Also, true dieting studies have been conducted recently. In a 2016 study, Longland observed that a protein intake of 2.4g/kg of total body weight was more effective for promoting fat loss and LBM gain compared to 1.2g/kg during a 4-week dieting period in detrained, overweight men (they had prior resistance training experience but were not currently training at the start of the study). While this study bridges the gap a bit compared to previous work where low protein intakes (1g/kg or 0.8g/kg) were compared to high protein intakes, 1.2g/kg is still a relatively low protein intake.
Even more recently, researchers reported that after 8 weeks of energy restriction, a pre- and post-workout whey-supplemented group of resistance-trained men performing bodybuilding style training maintained more muscle mass and gained more strength than a pre- and post-workout carbohydrate-supplemented group, which gained more muscular endurance. On average, the whey-supplemented group consumed a daily average of ~3g/kg of protein, while the carb-supplemented group consumed ~2.6 g/kg. To date, this is probably the most appropriate trial to assess the question of whether additional protein above traditional recommendations is beneficial for lifters while dieting..."
"...So, what would I recommend today looking back on the last 5 years?
Well, based on everything, I think ~0.8-1g/lb (~1.8-2.2g/kg) is probably the highest intake you’ll benefit from in terms of enhancing strength or mass gains when you’re not in a deficit. Higher intakes are fine, but the only benefit would be for people who tend to overeat in the offseason and want to limit their calorie consumption to prevent excess fat gain.
While dieting, the jury is still out concerning whether there’s a benefit from an intake higher than 1.8-2.2g/kg for muscle retention. However, there probably are some benefits in terms of satiety and potentially mood. That said, I wouldn’t go too high, as excess protein can displace your caloric allotment for carbs and fat. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up with a sub-par diet in terms of variety, micronutrient density, and adequate nutritional support for training. Thus, I’d cap dieting protein intake at ~2.8g/kg of total body mass, or roughly 1.3g/lb."5 -
Lot's of good proof sources to support Rybo's assertion. I'm surprised this was a thing worth disputing as he had asserted that the difference was minimal and the data is fairly easy to find.1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't think anyone is saying that increased protein builds muscle without exercise, but that increased protein can help protect against muscle loss (so that the proportion of muscle lost is less) even without exercise too, although of course also adding strength exercises is ideal and what I would recommend.
At least that's what I have read, and what I see rybo saying below.carriesheph wrote: »Hi,
I need some help in understanding Protein Intake and trying to lose weight and body fat. I've got the calorie counting down however my trainer suggested I eat more protein (ideally my body weight) and reduce carbs, sugar and bad fats. She feels if I eat more protein it will help me lose body fat and gain muscle.
Any information I would truly appreciate.
Earing more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and 1 gram per lb of weight is a bit high...0.8 grams is a good amount...1gram per lb of LBM maybe...
Actually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
okay so explain to me how eating protein (in enough of a quantity) prevent muscle loss?
and of course Low protein + Strength training will lose more than high protein with strength training..that's common sense...
but low protein + strength training and high protein no strength training would prove a better comparison.
based on my reading...strength training is the key...aka use it or lose it.
It's not going to prevent it completely, but less LBM will be lost at higher protein intake than lower protein intake. It's a very small difference, but measurable enough in the studies performed. It's probably not going to make or break anyone's weight loss, and yes strength training is the more important factor.
Interesting that the NHS is saying you should not go above 90 g for a woman and 110 g for a man, especially as that's not even a consistent recommendation (they elsewhere say that the recommendation not to go above 2x of is .75 x weight in kg, not that there's a set number for men and women). Indeed, the idea of a set number for men and women is silly. In trying to research the basis for this, I get that they admit the evidence for harm is weak (unless you have preexisting kidney problems, and even then I suspect the level for harm is much higher), but they ignore the evidence of positive effects and mostly seem focused on convincing people they don't need supplements, when of course one does not need to be consuming supplements to get above those numbers.
Any other thoughts on this?
I asked for proof that just protein itself will help preserve muscle mass...I didn't get any...they did say after to add in resistance training....i acknowledged that but he insisted that just protein was enough...I don't believe it.
I was always under the impression that to prevent muscle loss you need to use the muscle...aka weight train.
Not just eating protein...and the video linked in basically said the same thing...you need both not just protein
Here's one study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22691622
More fat loss vs. muscle at higher protein levels.
This is a different situation, since it's about the elderly sedentary vs. people at a calorie deficit, but again increased protein can be protective: www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/8/7/404/pdf
If you think about it, it makes sense, as even a sedentary person or a person who exercises only with cardio is going to be breaking down muscle, and having more protein would make it easier to repair it.
I don't think more protein is always good (I tend to recommend around .8 g/lb of a healthy goal weight or perhaps 1.5 g/kg of same), but in that it also has satiating effects and the possible benefits of higher levels have not really been studied that much and there's likely no harm if one has a decent balanced diet (at low calories I would not try for a very high protein level, and I would not try for a level that felt difficult or miserable). But I think there can be benefits even if one is not doing a progressive strength building program (although I'd recommend weight training or similar kinds of exercise, of course).
Thx. I will mark it and read it for sure.
I agree however that protein is a good thing...I didn't totally disagree with that assertion just the reasons why.
and like you I personally eat 0.8 gram per lb...and always recommend that amount.
The vid linked in talked about satiety and another hypothesis (can't think of what he called it ) but basically if you are on a low protein diet you seek out foods of that type wiht more protein...(interesting to me)
I think eating extra protein while losing weight is a good thing but I hate to see people do it just because they are going to keep/build muscle.1 -
Just for clarity, Rybo's assertion did not say any thing about increased protein during weight loss without resistance training doing anything to build muscle. Just slightly preserve it. The myriad of data above seems to support that. You asked for proof sources and they were provided, although not by the person who made the assertion.4
-
Just for clarity, Rybo's assertion did not say any thing about increased protein during weight loss without resistance training doing anything to build muscle. Just slightly preserve it. The myriad of data above seems to support that. You asked for proof sources and they were provided, although not by the person who made the assertion.
Agreed...I did notice I said something about building when it should have said preserving but I can't edit it now.
However if you see in my first post in response to hisEaring more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
was to say
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and after the but I "assumed" people would get the ...meant to say them together...
get in protein and do resistance training...as opposed to seperately as some could interpret it to mean one or the other not both.
then he went onto say thisActually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
which at this point I asked for his sources...he is the one who mentioned studies...
He wouldn't give them up...and Yes I watched the video etc.
The video did assert that eating protein in the morning will promote im-mesurable muscle repair but then it's negated by the breakdown that happens right before the next time we eat...so it's moot, they net each other out and are barely measurable inside a lab let alone outside...
So still I am under the impression that eating "high" protein does not preserve LBM while in a deficit unless you add it with strength training...and that it is the use of the muscles during strength training that is more important than getting in high protein.....
and I have yet to see a myriad of data anywhere in this thread other than 1 lecture and 1 study...which even the posters says probably isn't the best one as it deals with ageing populations
4 -
Just for clarity, Rybo's assertion did not say any thing about increased protein during weight loss without resistance training doing anything to build muscle. Just slightly preserve it. The myriad of data above seems to support that. You asked for proof sources and they were provided, although not by the person who made the assertion.
Agreed...I did notice I said something about building when it should have said preserving but I can't edit it now.
However if you see in my first post in response to hisEaring more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
was to say
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and after the but I "assumed" people would get the ...meant to say them together...
get in protein and do resistance training...as opposed to seperately as some could interpret it to mean one or the other not both.
then he went onto say thisActually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
which at this point I asked for his sources...he is the one who mentioned studies...
He wouldn't give them up...and Yes I watched the video etc.
The video did assert that eating protein in the morning will promote im-mesurable muscle repair but then it's negated by the breakdown that happens right before the next time we eat...so it's moot, they net each other out and are barely measurable inside a lab let alone outside...
So still I am under the impression that eating "high" protein does not preserve LBM while in a deficit unless you add it with strength training...and that it is the use of the muscles during strength training that is more important than getting in high protein.....
and I have yet to see a myriad of data anywhere in this thread other than 1 lecture and 1 study...which even the posters says probably isn't the best one as it deals with ageing populations
"Beyond that, there have been some recent studies looking at this. The first put obese men on either a very low calorie diet for 3 weeks or a low calorie (both of which contained a stupid 50 g/day of protein which is still too low given that the dieters were about 107 kg; they needed 150 g/day or so) diet for 6 weeks to generate the same total fat loss. The low calorie diet (with more calories) actually lost MORE lean body mass probably related to the length of the diet (and the stupid low protein) but they also lost more fat." http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25908563
Basically this study looks at two groups of men who are in either
1.) Low calorie deficit
2.)Very low calorie deficit
Both eating 50g protein a day
Results: Low calorie deficit lost more lean body mass than the Very low calorie deficit group. Meaning that the importance of protein in relation to calories is higher even when individuals are not working out.
"Many of those studies gave like 320-400 calories/day and maybe half of that was protein. That means that the dieters got like 50 grams of protein per day which is way below what even the obese need (1.5 g/kg protein or about 0.7 g/lb). That’s what caused the muscle loss; too little protein. And of course no resistance training. Insufficient protein causes muscle loss." Lyle Mcdonald
So yes, resistance training paired with a high protein diet will be best for preserving LBM in a caloric deficit, however, if you can't weight train in a caloric deficit then having a diet high in protein will aid in preserving LBM.
6 -
Just for clarity, Rybo's assertion did not say any thing about increased protein during weight loss without resistance training doing anything to build muscle. Just slightly preserve it. The myriad of data above seems to support that. You asked for proof sources and they were provided, although not by the person who made the assertion.
Agreed...I did notice I said something about building when it should have said preserving but I can't edit it now.
However if you see in my first post in response to hisEaring more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
was to say
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and after the but I "assumed" people would get the ...meant to say them together...
get in protein and do resistance training...as opposed to seperately as some could interpret it to mean one or the other not both.
then he went onto say thisActually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
which at this point I asked for his sources...he is the one who mentioned studies...
He wouldn't give them up...and Yes I watched the video etc.
The video did assert that eating protein in the morning will promote im-mesurable muscle repair but then it's negated by the breakdown that happens right before the next time we eat...so it's moot, they net each other out and are barely measurable inside a lab let alone outside...
So still I am under the impression that eating "high" protein does not preserve LBM while in a deficit unless you add it with strength training...and that it is the use of the muscles during strength training that is more important than getting in high protein.....
and I have yet to see a myriad of data anywhere in this thread other than 1 lecture and 1 study...which even the posters says probably isn't the best one as it deals with ageing populations
"Beyond that, there have been some recent studies looking at this. The first put obese men on either a very low calorie diet for 3 weeks or a low calorie (both of which contained a stupid 50 g/day of protein which is still too low given that the dieters were about 107 kg; they needed 150 g/day or so) diet for 6 weeks to generate the same total fat loss. The low calorie diet (with more calories) actually lost MORE lean body mass probably related to the length of the diet (and the stupid low protein) but they also lost more fat." http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25908563
Basically this study looks at two groups of men who are in either
1.) Low calorie deficit
2.)Very low calorie deficit
Both eating 50g protein a day
Results: Low calorie deficit lost more lean body mass than the Very low calorie deficit group. Meaning that the importance of protein in relation to calories is higher even when individuals are not working out.
"Many of those studies gave like 320-400 calories/day and maybe half of that was protein. That means that the dieters got like 50 grams of protein per day which is way below what even the obese need (1.5 g/kg protein or about 0.7 g/lb). That’s what caused the muscle loss; too little protein. And of course no resistance training. Insufficient protein causes muscle loss." Lyle Mcdonald
So yes, resistance training paired with a high protein diet will be best for preserving LBM in a caloric deficit, however, if you can't weight train in a caloric deficit then having a diet high in protein will aid in preserving LBM.
thank you.
I will say this...it is very possible that adequate protein is important for preserving muscle while losing weight.
I am not totally convinced but about 85%...I say not totally as the study is for obese men...and then the bobycomp one spoke of 3 things...
but given the 4 links I can admit I am probably wrong
...so I appreciate the education.
Studies/articles/lectures all book marked.
2 -
Just for clarity, Rybo's assertion did not say any thing about increased protein during weight loss without resistance training doing anything to build muscle. Just slightly preserve it. The myriad of data above seems to support that. You asked for proof sources and they were provided, although not by the person who made the assertion.
Agreed...I did notice I said something about building when it should have said preserving but I can't edit it now.
However if you see in my first post in response to hisEaring more protein won't do what she is saying. However, the 1 gram/lb of body weight is a good target. When losing weight, (eating at a deficit) keeping your protein intake high helps limit the amount of muscle lost. Also important is doing strength training during this time. Ideally the only weight you want to lose is body fat. That's usually not completely possible, but you'll want to maximize fat loss & minimize lean mass loss by eating higher protein and strength training. And as always, to lose weight/fat, total calories matter most.
was to say
eating protein does not limit muscle loss...doing resistance or weight lifting does...and I see you say that later but...
and after the but I "assumed" people would get the ...meant to say them together...
get in protein and do resistance training...as opposed to seperately as some could interpret it to mean one or the other not both.
then he went onto say thisActually it does (even if only minimally) and even more so when combined. Low protein & strength training will lose more LBM than high protein & strength training.
which at this point I asked for his sources...he is the one who mentioned studies...
He wouldn't give them up...and Yes I watched the video etc.
The video did assert that eating protein in the morning will promote im-mesurable muscle repair but then it's negated by the breakdown that happens right before the next time we eat...so it's moot, they net each other out and are barely measurable inside a lab let alone outside...
So still I am under the impression that eating "high" protein does not preserve LBM while in a deficit unless you add it with strength training...and that it is the use of the muscles during strength training that is more important than getting in high protein.....
and I have yet to see a myriad of data anywhere in this thread other than 1 lecture and 1 study...which even the posters says probably isn't the best one as it deals with ageing populations
"Beyond that, there have been some recent studies looking at this. The first put obese men on either a very low calorie diet for 3 weeks or a low calorie (both of which contained a stupid 50 g/day of protein which is still too low given that the dieters were about 107 kg; they needed 150 g/day or so) diet for 6 weeks to generate the same total fat loss. The low calorie diet (with more calories) actually lost MORE lean body mass probably related to the length of the diet (and the stupid low protein) but they also lost more fat." http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25908563
Basically this study looks at two groups of men who are in either
1.) Low calorie deficit
2.)Very low calorie deficit
Both eating 50g protein a day
Results: Low calorie deficit lost more lean body mass than the Very low calorie deficit group. Meaning that the importance of protein in relation to calories is higher even when individuals are not working out.
"Many of those studies gave like 320-400 calories/day and maybe half of that was protein. That means that the dieters got like 50 grams of protein per day which is way below what even the obese need (1.5 g/kg protein or about 0.7 g/lb). That’s what caused the muscle loss; too little protein. And of course no resistance training. Insufficient protein causes muscle loss." Lyle Mcdonald
So yes, resistance training paired with a high protein diet will be best for preserving LBM in a caloric deficit, however, if you can't weight train in a caloric deficit then having a diet high in protein will aid in preserving LBM.
thank you.
I will say this...it is very possible that adequate protein is important for preserving muscle while losing weight.
I am not totally convinced but about 85%...I say not totally as the study is for obese men...and then the bobycomp one spoke of 3 things...
but given the 4 links I can admit I am probably wrong ...so I appreciate the education.
Studies/articles/lectures all book marked.
Not a problem. Yes this study was done using obese men, however that should just prove the case even more.
Individuals that are leaner actually require a higher protein intake than obese individuals while in a caloric deficit to preserve LBM.4
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