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Cals are NOT created equal. CICO isn't the whole story.
joemac1988
Posts: 1,021 Member
Full disclosure; I DO follow IIFYM and incorporate "comfort/dirty/whatever" foods daily. But, I'm not addressing IIFYM (whole 'nother story), just CICO.
Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to" and "a calorie is a calorie" isn't telling the whole story. If you're a beginner with tracking macros/have a lot to lose/are really experienced and know your body, then yes; you'll do ok with CICO.
That being said, CICO makes no allowance for Macros, Micros, Circadian Rhythm, blood sugar levels, etc. Without the right macros, fat loss, muscle gain and performance will all suffer.
Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
P.S. If you disagree, your argument is with scientific research, not me.
This should be interesting
Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to" and "a calorie is a calorie" isn't telling the whole story. If you're a beginner with tracking macros/have a lot to lose/are really experienced and know your body, then yes; you'll do ok with CICO.
That being said, CICO makes no allowance for Macros, Micros, Circadian Rhythm, blood sugar levels, etc. Without the right macros, fat loss, muscle gain and performance will all suffer.
Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
P.S. If you disagree, your argument is with scientific research, not me.
This should be interesting
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Replies
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This debate has been done to death. Please exit to the right everyone.86
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15
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Conflating nutrition and health with an energy formula does not score you extra points... exit stage center.38
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I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
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there are calories for nutrition and calories for health - they are completely different and conflating the 2 doesn't help...9
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21
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Didn't we do this last week(with the same subject line)?17
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stanmann571 wrote: »Didn't we do this last week(with the same subject line)?
And last month...and last year...24 -
This content has been removed.
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Should we go to the lemon water detox thread?Chef_Barbell wrote: »This debate has been done to death. Please exit to the right everyone.
Only for an awesome lemon drop recipe... :laugh:12 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.25 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Didn't we do this last week(with the same subject line)?
If so, was a coincidence and I didn't see it. Mah bad.7 -
joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?12 -
joemac1988 wrote: »Full disclosure; I DO follow IIFYM and incorporate "comfort/dirty/whatever" foods daily. But, I'm not addressing IIFYM (whole 'nother story), just CICO.
Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to" and "a calorie is a calorie" isn't telling the whole story. If you're a beginner with tracking macros/have a lot to lose/are really experienced and know your body, then yes; you'll do ok with CICO.
That being said, CICO makes no allowance for Macros, Micros, Circadian Rhythm, blood sugar levels, etc. Without the right macros, fat loss, muscle gain and performance will all suffer.
Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
P.S. If you disagree, your argument is with scientific research, not me.
This should be interesting
Everyone has different goals though. I have no interest in a specific body composition. I am interested though in having a normal glucose number, since I used to be a prediabetic. Just focusing on CICO during my weight loss phase kept things simple and sustainable for me, (I did not track macros/micros at all). Lost the extra weight and improved all my health markers, including normalizing that glucose number into the 80s.
Now I'm a few years into maintenance and I still don't have fitness/body comp goals because that's just not important to me. I'm in excellent health, look good in my clothes and my husband of almost 15 years can't keep his hands off of me. My body composition is 'optimal' for me and I'm quite happy with where I'm at, and I still keep things simple (no tracking of macros, micros or circadian rhythm). To each their own!
eta: my before pics are in my profile area, along with one that I took yesterday. My body comp may not be desirable to others, but I'm pretty darn pleased with where I'm at today
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?
I just tagged you on 3 of such people.11 -
OliveGirl128 wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »Full disclosure; I DO follow IIFYM and incorporate "comfort/dirty/whatever" foods daily. But, I'm not addressing IIFYM (whole 'nother story), just CICO.
Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to" and "a calorie is a calorie" isn't telling the whole story. If you're a beginner with tracking macros/have a lot to lose/are really experienced and know your body, then yes; you'll do ok with CICO.
That being said, CICO makes no allowance for Macros, Micros, Circadian Rhythm, blood sugar levels, etc. Without the right macros, fat loss, muscle gain and performance will all suffer.
Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
P.S. If you disagree, your argument is with scientific research, not me.
This should be interesting
Everyone has different goals though. I have no interest in a specific body composition. I am interested though in having a normal glucose number, since I used to be a prediabetic. Just focusing on CICO during my weight loss phase kept things simple and sustainable for me, (I did not track macros/micros at all). Lost the extra weight and improved all my health markers, including normalizing that glucose number into the 80s.
Now I'm a few years into maintenance and I still don't have fitness/body comp goals because that's just not important to me. I'm in excellent health, look good in my clothes and my husband of almost 15 years can't keep his hands off of me. My body composition is 'optimal' for me and I'm quite happy with where I'm at, and I still keep things simple (no tracking of macros, micros or circadian rhythm). To each their own!
eta: my before pics are in my profile area, along with one that I took yesterday. My body comp may not be desirable to others, but I'm pretty darn pleased with where I'm at today
Good reply!3 -
joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?
I just tagged you on 3 of such people.joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?
I just tagged you on 3 of such people.joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?
I just tagged you on 3 of such people.
3 people stating that CICO is all that matters for weight loss. Which is true.22 -
A CALORIE is a CALORIE. A unit of measure doesn't change just because what it's made of differs from something else.
A foot is a foot. A liter is a liter. A pound is a pound. You'll NEVER find any scientific journal stating that those actual measurements differ.
Now you can have a foot of grass and a foot of dirt, a liter of milk and a liter of water, or a pound of gold or a pound of feathers. Different materials, but MEASUREMENT is still the same for all.
So tell me, how is 10 calories of protein more in calorie measurement than 10 calories of fat? Or 10 calories of carbs? Again, focusing on the actual 10 calories. How is 10 different than 10?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Calories don't tell me what lottery numbers to play. Lottery numbers aren't weight loss, neither is nutrition, general health, or athletic performance. Most of these things are connected, but calories are only the trump card for weight.15
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The best diet for rapid weight loss is the raw chicken diet. No matter how much you eat you are guaranteed to lose a lot of weight.27
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joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
Please point out where there is one person who fits that description?
I just tagged you on 3 of such people.
Poor reading comprehension is a bigger problem than "CICO is the first and most important factor in weight loss"22 -
joemac1988 wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I don't believe I've read anything to suggest that anyone disagrees with you; there is a lot of recommendations around macro breakdown and its impact on body composition (especially in regards to sufficient protein along with resistance training for maintaining muscle in a deficit), and that a nutrient dense diet is important for health.
That said, there is no one "correct" macro breakdown. Some people manage better on higher carb, others on higher fat. There are many ways of eating a "healthy" diet.
Couldn't agree more. But, you don't have to go into forums too deep here to find plenty of "CICO is all you need to worry about" people.
That's usually on threads where someone says, "I eat healthy/clean and I'm not losing weight" or "I ate a cheeto, will I get fat". Context.15 -
Should we go to the lemon water detox thread?Chef_Barbell wrote: »This debate has been done to death. Please exit to the right everyone.
I got jacked on lemon water detox
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"joemac1988 wrote: »"Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to"
I never see anyone say this. I do see people saying that CICO is all that matters for weight loss so figure out what works for you to have a sustainable diet that is calorie appropriate. Within the same post it often also says that nutrition is also important, for health."a calorie is a calorie"
Are you another person who doesn't understand what this means and thinks it means that all foods are the same? It doesn't.Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
Protein matters for body composition, especially when you are closer to goal, although if one is not exercising the muscles it might not matter all that much. But macros don't particularly matter beyond that, and there's a huge range of protein that is fine. Also, people on MFP are always told to eat adequate protein and given good estimates of how much, so the idea that this is ignored is, well, bizarre.
Do whole foods matter for body composition? I doubt it. I think it's easier for me to sustain a deficit eating mostly whole foods, and I like to (I did when I was fat too), but does it make a difference to whether I lose fat or muscle? Show me something supporting that, please.13 -
Conflating nutrition and health with an energy formula does not score you extra points... exit stage center.
I will just leave this here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10541316/cico-its-a-math-formula/p1
and can I exit via a dive into the mosh pit?21 -
In the grand scheme of things, it does come down to CICO
You have to see what the context of the person saying CICO is.....
Because the other aspects of those calories don't matter much if you are not eating the right amount for your goals.
And as noted earlier, calorie is a unit of measure for energy, gotta keep that in mind as well..
But the composition of those calories (or macros) don't matter too much if your overall calories for your goals aren't right.
Not to mention the fact that when you get lean, very lean, the body does a really good job of making the most efficient use of the calories/macros it gets
Look at people who do Keto and cut out carbs....the body adapts by shifting how it draws it's energy for daily use.
Now when I discuss diet/nutrition with people, I strongly encourage that the bulk of their calories be made up of whole foods, because I think that the best for health nutrition as well as satiety.
But you can still achieve your goals with other food sources, as long as you are sticking to your calories....may be a bit hard and require a bit more will power, but it can be done.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »"joemac1988 wrote: »"Saying "CICO is all you need to pay attention to"
I never see anyone say this. I do see people saying that CICO is all that matters for weight loss so figure out what works for you to have a sustainable diet that is calorie appropriate. Within the same post it often also says that nutrition is also important, for health."a calorie is a calorie"
Are you another person who doesn't understand what this means and thinks it means that all foods are the same? It doesn't.Bottom line: will you lose weight on a caloric deficit? Yes. Will your body composition be as optimal as if your macros were correct and you stuck to whole foods? NO.
Protein matters for body composition, especially when you are closer to goal, although if one is not exercising the muscles it might not matter all that much. But macros don't particularly matter beyond that, and there's a huge range of protein that is fine. Also, people on MFP are always told to eat adequate protein and given good estimates of how much, so the idea that this is ignored is, well, bizarre.
Do whole foods matter for body composition? I doubt it. I think it's easier for me to sustain a deficit eating mostly whole foods, and I like to (I did when I was fat too), but does it make a difference to whether I lose fat or muscle? Show me something supporting that, please.
We should make a broken record of this and place it in front of a wall. About the same effect.9 -
PLEASE can we have a flogging a dead horse gif... threads normally get shut down before they're posted... please... for us old school MFPer's who remember the good times...11
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TavistockToad wrote: »PLEASE can we have a flogging a dead horse gif... threads normally get shut down before they're posted... please... for us old school MFPer's who remember the good times...
Remember the kitten gifs thread? I miss that...15 -
OP: If a person said they weren't losing weight what would you have them do first? Would you have them ensure calorie accuracy or would you have them adjust their macros?11
This discussion has been closed.
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