Stronglifts 5x5 - what if there's no squat cage?
Replies
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Awesomed because Muscle Jesus.
I learned something from this thread - I had never heard of zerchers before. I read about them and they seem to target my exact problems, so I did a few before breakfast with light weight to try out form. So, even if we haven't solved the OP's problem, at least one person learned something!6 -
Yeah, I've just gotten into zerchers and love them because you don't need a rack and you don't have to do a "bear complex" or something to be able to do a squat and I just hate the front squat even though it really is an option, but you have to do a power clean first so... plusses and minuses.2
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Yeah, I've just gotten into zerchers and love them because you don't need a rack and you don't have to do a "bear complex" or something to be able to do a squat and I just hate the front squat even though it really is an option, but you have to do a power clean first so... plusses and minuses.
I can see that my problem is going to be that my arm strength isn't high enough compared to my leg strength for me to easily get a sufficiently large amount of weight into place. Plus they really aren't comfortable! But I can already tell that they are targeting my back and core in a way which will improve my regular squats.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I've just gotten into zerchers and love them because you don't need a rack and you don't have to do a "bear complex" or something to be able to do a squat and I just hate the front squat even though it really is an option, but you have to do a power clean first so... plusses and minuses.
I can see that my problem is going to be that my arm strength isn't high enough compared to my leg strength for me to easily get a sufficiently large amount of weight into place. Plus they really aren't comfortable! But I can already tell that they are targeting my back and core in a way which will improve my regular squats.
I sumo deadlift the bar up then lower it down on my thighs to get it into position. I would imagine as weight gets higher this won't be as ideal, but works for me right now!3 -
TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
It's not only a direct answer, it's the best solution if possible.TicoCortez wrote: »Jesus. The OP said they're stuck with their current gym. Change gyms? Find a "real" gym? What's the point of saying that? Ya feel super alpha now?
OP Are you training for competition? Is there a specific reason you need to hit the squat numbers as listed? If it's just general strength and muscle retention, the key is progressive strength building in small increments while paying attention to proper form. However, it's not a religion. You can modify if you need to. Definitely don't use the Smith for squats. If you have to use dumbbells, use dumbbells. If they have a leg press, swap the leg press for squats. You can still adjust the weight gradually and progressively and build strength and muscle. Squats primarily hit the quads, and secondarily glutes, adductors, hamstrings, etc. The leg press also primarily hits the quads, and to a degree, the glutes and adductors. I would do some accessory lifts that hit the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors, and call it a day.
Of course if you do have specific strength/bodybuilding goals that demand squats, the leg press isn't going to translate in anywhere near a linear manner, so you may need to consider looking for a new program.
ETA: I forgot the erectors. You might want to consider adding some good mornings or romainian deadlift accessory lifts for the lower back. The squats hit those as well.
Second one is to change programs to fit the needs.
Third is a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery.
Nothing alpha about being efficient with a answer.
But that's the thing man, "Find a real gym" is completely arbitrary. And doing 1 main lift and 2 or 3 accessory lifts to substitute for 1 specific lift in an otherwise solid program doesn't qualify as "a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery." It's modifying one part of an otherwise simple, effective program to get around not being able to change gyms, or to have to try to find an equally simple and effective other program to suit your goals. As long as you're doing lifts that hit the same muscle groups, paying attention to proper form and progressing gradually on the weight increase, you're fine. It's not as demanding and precise as you're making it sound.
Sure if op is competing or has specific goals then substituting that lift with the others might not be the best option, but if it's just for general strength and/or muscle retention then it's perfectly viable as long as it is kept in mind that the progression shouldn't be expected to follow the same path as strict adherence to the program as it is.
SL5X5 is a strength program specifically designed to gain strength fast in a short period of time. It is not a general strength program.
As a novice lifter one shouldn't modify a program without understanding the purpose of the program and the lifts within in it. Such as why abs are worked in a back squat and not a leg press, or a low bar position will work more hamstrings than a high bar position, etc...
SL5X5 strength program is designed with basic barbell movements. Accessory and assistance work is for later.
We can't assume the OP goals are unless stated.
The OP stated this particular place has free weights and dumbells.
Find a real gym is straight forward advice for that particular program. Do you really think progressing with dumbells (your first suggestion) will go far on SL5x5? Adding 5lbs with dumbells isn't possible under SL structure and then there's also grip strength that burdens that option. I certainly wouldn't advice any novice to modify a strength program, not alone modify it suboptimally. These IMHO are still the best options.
1. Finding a real gym that actually has the standard equipment (cage/rack) needed for the chosen program as written.
2..Finding a different program that fits the gym/goals chosen.
3. Modifying a strength program suboptimally.
1. OP said they were looking to start a beginner lifting program. SL is that. And it is indeed a safe assumption that they are looking to build foundational strength.
2. They said THEY CANNOT CHANGE GYMS. So according to your advice they can't do ANY program that recommends or includes squatting which is all but very few, especially when you're talking about a beginning lifter. What program would you recommend in this case? (And remember you can't modify it because then muscle Jesus won't bless your gains.)
3.They can still do a modified version of stronglifts, a beginner's lifting program by modifying ONE LIFT out of the entire routine. And no they won't progress with dumbbells or even with the leg press and accessory lifts like they would with the squat. Which was stated SEVERAL times. If this is indeed the case, then it's not a suboptimal change as they can still build foundational strength as a beginning lifter. And modifying, again, ONE LIFT with good advice from experienced lifters while being careful on how they progress is not the same as a having a beginner completely change a program. Especially with a program that starts you out with an empty bar. You're starting to border on histrionic.
1. SL5x5 is a direct rip off of Starting Strength which by all means is a beginner strength program and is not a general fitness program. Ask either Rip or Mehdi and they will confirm. Perhaps you didn't know that, but it's a fact regardless. Both are marketed as and programed for strength as a priority, not just "lifting" or "general fitness". I never once said don't do the program regardless of her goals, I said find a real gym that had the equipment to do the program optimally(being she mentioned the SL program).
2. Original post was she was stuck using gym. This isn't always set in stone when first worded by any novice, but she elaborated & confirmed on a later post. Regardless my advice was and still is as to find a program that can utilize what equipment available. Second option is to find a program that fits her goals/gym. As mentioned previously there are several decent ones that are exclusively for dumbbells for her gym. I believe the sticky with link(s) is available at top of main page.
3. Modifying a program is still the lowest option that can be utilized. Changing the strength program is suboptimal by definition since one couldnt go through the same progression of a barbell squat. One would stall much faster on a major part of the program.
I'm not saying the third option should not be done in this situation, I'm saying just that....it's the third option. I'm sure there are a few more with more info from the OP.
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TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
It's not only a direct answer, it's the best solution if possible.TicoCortez wrote: »Jesus. The OP said they're stuck with their current gym. Change gyms? Find a "real" gym? What's the point of saying that? Ya feel super alpha now?
OP Are you training for competition? Is there a specific reason you need to hit the squat numbers as listed? If it's just general strength and muscle retention, the key is progressive strength building in small increments while paying attention to proper form. However, it's not a religion. You can modify if you need to. Definitely don't use the Smith for squats. If you have to use dumbbells, use dumbbells. If they have a leg press, swap the leg press for squats. You can still adjust the weight gradually and progressively and build strength and muscle. Squats primarily hit the quads, and secondarily glutes, adductors, hamstrings, etc. The leg press also primarily hits the quads, and to a degree, the glutes and adductors. I would do some accessory lifts that hit the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors, and call it a day.
Of course if you do have specific strength/bodybuilding goals that demand squats, the leg press isn't going to translate in anywhere near a linear manner, so you may need to consider looking for a new program.
ETA: I forgot the erectors. You might want to consider adding some good mornings or romainian deadlift accessory lifts for the lower back. The squats hit those as well.
Second one is to change programs to fit the needs.
Third is a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery.
Nothing alpha about being efficient with a answer.
But that's the thing man, "Find a real gym" is completely arbitrary. And doing 1 main lift and 2 or 3 accessory lifts to substitute for 1 specific lift in an otherwise solid program doesn't qualify as "a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery." It's modifying one part of an otherwise simple, effective program to get around not being able to change gyms, or to have to try to find an equally simple and effective other program to suit your goals. As long as you're doing lifts that hit the same muscle groups, paying attention to proper form and progressing gradually on the weight increase, you're fine. It's not as demanding and precise as you're making it sound.
Sure if op is competing or has specific goals then substituting that lift with the others might not be the best option, but if it's just for general strength and/or muscle retention then it's perfectly viable as long as it is kept in mind that the progression shouldn't be expected to follow the same path as strict adherence to the program as it is.
SL5X5 is a strength program specifically designed to gain strength fast in a short period of time. It is not a general strength program.
As a novice lifter one shouldn't modify a program without understanding the purpose of the program and the lifts within in it. Such as why abs are worked in a back squat and not a leg press, or a low bar position will work more hamstrings than a high bar position, etc...
SL5X5 strength program is designed with basic barbell movements. Accessory and assistance work is for later.
We can't assume the OP goals are unless stated.
The OP stated this particular place has free weights and dumbells.
Find a real gym is straight forward advice for that particular program. Do you really think progressing with dumbells (your first suggestion) will go far on SL5x5? Adding 5lbs with dumbells isn't possible under SL structure and then there's also grip strength that burdens that option. I certainly wouldn't advice any novice to modify a strength program, not alone modify it suboptimally. These IMHO are still the best options.
1. Finding a real gym that actually has the standard equipment (cage/rack) needed for the chosen program as written.
2..Finding a different program that fits the gym/goals chosen.
3. Modifying a strength program suboptimally.
1. OP said they were looking to start a beginner lifting program. SL is that. And it is indeed a safe assumption that they are looking to build foundational strength.
2. They said THEY CANNOT CHANGE GYMS. So according to your advice they can't do ANY program that recommends or includes squatting which is all but very few, especially when you're talking about a beginning lifter. What program would you recommend in this case? (And remember you can't modify it because then muscle Jesus won't bless your gains.)
3.They can still do a modified version of stronglifts, a beginner's lifting program by modifying ONE LIFT out of the entire routine. And no they won't progress with dumbbells or even with the leg press and accessory lifts like they would with the squat. Which was stated SEVERAL times. If this is indeed the case, then it's not a suboptimal change as they can still build foundational strength as a beginning lifter. And modifying, again, ONE LIFT with good advice from experienced lifters while being careful on how they progress is not the same as a having a beginner completely change a program. Especially with a program that starts you out with an empty bar. You're starting to border on histrionic.
1. SL5x5 is a direct rip off of Starting Strength which by all means is a beginner strength program and is not a general fitness program. Ask either Rip or Mehdi and they will confirm. Perhaps you didn't know that, but it's a fact regardless. Both are marketed as and programed for strength as a priority, not just "lifting" or "general fitness". I never once said don't do the program regardless of her goals, I said find a real gym that had the equipment to do the program optimally(being she mentioned the SL program).
2. Original post was she was stuck using gym. This isn't always set in stone when first worded by any novice, but she elaborated & confirmed on a later post. Regardless my advice was and still is as to find a program that can utilize what equipment available. Second option is to find a program that fits her goals/gym. As mentioned previously there are several decent ones that are exclusively for dumbbells for her gym. I believe the sticky with link(s) is available at top of main page.
3. Modifying a program is still the lowest option that can be utilized. Changing the strength program is suboptimal by definition since one couldnt go through the same progression of a barbell squat. One would stall much faster on a major part of the program.
I'm not saying the third option should not be done in this situation, I'm saying just that....it's the third option. I'm sure there are a few more with more info from the OP.
1. Neither Rip nor Medhi invented 5x5. Reg Park was doing 5x5 DECADES before those guys, and it has been recommended throughout the years as a solid way to build foundational strength, which is why it gets recommended to beginning lifters so often, whether by SL or SS.
2. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of another program, but finding one that doesn't include squatting, that is geared towards a beginner is HIGHLY unlikely. At some point, you're going to have to modify. What's the difference of modifying this or any other program to fit the situation? Sure, you can do a full routine with nothing but dumbbells but how is that anymore optimal for a someone looking for a beginning routine, than a routine that allows them to learn and progress properly, quickly, and more efficiently on bench, deadlift, rows, and ohp, while modifying the lift for squats while they are waiting for circumstances to change? They can still continue learning about compound lifting, build a solid strength base, and educate themselves so that when the proper resources are available they can add in what they weren't able to before.
3. My main issue isn't with the idea of another program, or even another gym, but when someone says they're stuck with the gym they're in, it's nonsense to suggest changing gyms. Goal posts can get moved around all day man, but *kitten* advice masquerading as "efficient" is still *kitten* advice.
ETA: I struck through the above because there are tons of beginner routines out there that don't involve squatting. You can find decent beginner routines that focus completely on machines, well, as decent as a totally machine oriented workout can be anyway. But are they going to be as effective as something like a modified 5x5 would be? I would say not at all, recognizing that it's a completely arguable point.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I've just gotten into zerchers and love them because you don't need a rack and you don't have to do a "bear complex" or something to be able to do a squat and I just hate the front squat even though it really is an option, but you have to do a power clean first so... plusses and minuses.
I can see that my problem is going to be that my arm strength isn't high enough compared to my leg strength for me to easily get a sufficiently large amount of weight into place. Plus they really aren't comfortable! But I can already tell that they are targeting my back and core in a way which will improve my regular squats.
I sumo deadlift the bar up then lower it down on my thighs to get it into position. I would imagine as weight gets higher this won't be as ideal, but works for me right now!
This is ok, when your arm strength is the limiting factor in a compound lift, it's totally ok, and I'd recommend, to just do the amount your arms are capable of. This is very similar to grip strength limiting a deadlift, your brain will give the rest of your body input and it just won't lift that bar if your wrists aren't wanting to. This all gets into building a balanced body where the muscles all coordinate with each other and don't overpower each other either. As your other lifts improve, your arm and shoulder strength will improve and your zerchers will get heavier. Totally normal and something we all deal with, it's why compound lifts are great.
As far as making them more comfortable, I see some people get these sleeves that are kind of thick and go from about mid forearm to about mid bicep. Kind of like leg-warmers for your arms. This is an option. I also wrapped the bar in a T-shirt one time, but it didn't really work out great. Now your arms will get stronger and it will become more comfortable over time too, but it could be you'll need something soft between your elbow and the bar, use whatever works. Someone suggested wearing neoprene knee sleeves on your arms, or a long-sleeved T-shirt. I suppose you could even glue or sew some material to the inside elbows of a long-sleeved T-shirt too, but you might have to get creative with what you've got.
Sardelsa is correct about deadlifting the bar onto your front quads, then getting your elbow under the bar while it is balancing. Here's a video. I put my arms on the outside of my legs, this guy puts his on the inside, I haven't tried that yet. Use light weights to perfect it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpy4ADmlo1E
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Yepp @Rusty740 that is exactly what I do, although my hands are a bit farther apart but still in between my legs
eta: I train more hypertrophy, so my reps are typically 8-12 or I incorporate pause squats which keeps the load lighter, so that helps too1 -
TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
It's not only a direct answer, it's the best solution if possible.TicoCortez wrote: »Jesus. The OP said they're stuck with their current gym. Change gyms? Find a "real" gym? What's the point of saying that? Ya feel super alpha now?
OP Are you training for competition? Is there a specific reason you need to hit the squat numbers as listed? If it's just general strength and muscle retention, the key is progressive strength building in small increments while paying attention to proper form. However, it's not a religion. You can modify if you need to. Definitely don't use the Smith for squats. If you have to use dumbbells, use dumbbells. If they have a leg press, swap the leg press for squats. You can still adjust the weight gradually and progressively and build strength and muscle. Squats primarily hit the quads, and secondarily glutes, adductors, hamstrings, etc. The leg press also primarily hits the quads, and to a degree, the glutes and adductors. I would do some accessory lifts that hit the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors, and call it a day.
Of course if you do have specific strength/bodybuilding goals that demand squats, the leg press isn't going to translate in anywhere near a linear manner, so you may need to consider looking for a new program.
ETA: I forgot the erectors. You might want to consider adding some good mornings or romainian deadlift accessory lifts for the lower back. The squats hit those as well.
Second one is to change programs to fit the needs.
Third is a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery.
Nothing alpha about being efficient with a answer.
But that's the thing man, "Find a real gym" is completely arbitrary. And doing 1 main lift and 2 or 3 accessory lifts to substitute for 1 specific lift in an otherwise solid program doesn't qualify as "a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery." It's modifying one part of an otherwise simple, effective program to get around not being able to change gyms, or to have to try to find an equally simple and effective other program to suit your goals. As long as you're doing lifts that hit the same muscle groups, paying attention to proper form and progressing gradually on the weight increase, you're fine. It's not as demanding and precise as you're making it sound.
Sure if op is competing or has specific goals then substituting that lift with the others might not be the best option, but if it's just for general strength and/or muscle retention then it's perfectly viable as long as it is kept in mind that the progression shouldn't be expected to follow the same path as strict adherence to the program as it is.
SL5X5 is a strength program specifically designed to gain strength fast in a short period of time. It is not a general strength program.
As a novice lifter one shouldn't modify a program without understanding the purpose of the program and the lifts within in it. Such as why abs are worked in a back squat and not a leg press, or a low bar position will work more hamstrings than a high bar position, etc...
SL5X5 strength program is designed with basic barbell movements. Accessory and assistance work is for later.
We can't assume the OP goals are unless stated.
The OP stated this particular place has free weights and dumbells.
Find a real gym is straight forward advice for that particular program. Do you really think progressing with dumbells (your first suggestion) will go far on SL5x5? Adding 5lbs with dumbells isn't possible under SL structure and then there's also grip strength that burdens that option. I certainly wouldn't advice any novice to modify a strength program, not alone modify it suboptimally. These IMHO are still the best options.
1. Finding a real gym that actually has the standard equipment (cage/rack) needed for the chosen program as written.
2..Finding a different program that fits the gym/goals chosen.
3. Modifying a strength program suboptimally.
1. OP said they were looking to start a beginner lifting program. SL is that. And it is indeed a safe assumption that they are looking to build foundational strength.
2. They said THEY CANNOT CHANGE GYMS. So according to your advice they can't do ANY program that recommends or includes squatting which is all but very few, especially when you're talking about a beginning lifter. What program would you recommend in this case? (And remember you can't modify it because then muscle Jesus won't bless your gains.)
3.They can still do a modified version of stronglifts, a beginner's lifting program by modifying ONE LIFT out of the entire routine. And no they won't progress with dumbbells or even with the leg press and accessory lifts like they would with the squat. Which was stated SEVERAL times. If this is indeed the case, then it's not a suboptimal change as they can still build foundational strength as a beginning lifter. And modifying, again, ONE LIFT with good advice from experienced lifters while being careful on how they progress is not the same as a having a beginner completely change a program. Especially with a program that starts you out with an empty bar. You're starting to border on histrionic.
1. SL5x5 is a direct rip off of Starting Strength which by all means is a beginner strength program and is not a general fitness program. Ask either Rip or Mehdi and they will confirm. Perhaps you didn't know that, but it's a fact regardless. Both are marketed as and programed for strength as a priority, not just "lifting" or "general fitness". I never once said don't do the program regardless of her goals, I said find a real gym that had the equipment to do the program optimally(being she mentioned the SL program).
2. Original post was she was stuck using gym. This isn't always set in stone when first worded by any novice, but she elaborated & confirmed on a later post. Regardless my advice was and still is as to find a program that can utilize what equipment available. Second option is to find a program that fits her goals/gym. As mentioned previously there are several decent ones that are exclusively for dumbbells for her gym. I believe the sticky with link(s) is available at top of main page.
3. Modifying a program is still the lowest option that can be utilized. Changing the strength program is suboptimal by definition since one couldnt go through the same progression of a barbell squat. One would stall much faster on a major part of the program.
I'm not saying the third option should not be done in this situation, I'm saying just that....it's the third option. I'm sure there are a few more with more info from the OP.
1. Neither Rip nor Medhi invented 5x5. Reg Park was doing 5x5 DECADES before those guys, and it has been recommended throughout the years as a solid way to build foundational strength, which is why it gets recommended to beginning lifters so often, whether by SL or SS.
2. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of another program, but finding one that doesn't include squatting, that is geared towards a beginner is HIGHLY unlikely. At some point, you're going to have to modify. What's the difference of modifying this or any other program to fit the situation? Sure, you can do a full routine with nothing but dumbbells but how is that anymore optimal for a someone looking for a beginning routine, than a routine that allows them to learn and progress properly, quickly, and more efficiently on bench, deadlift, rows, and ohp, while modifying the lift for squats while they are waiting for circumstances to change? They can still continue learning about compound lifting, build a solid strength base, and educate themselves so that when the proper resources are available they can add in what they weren't able to before.
3. My main issue isn't with the idea of another program, or even another gym, but when someone says they're stuck with the gym they're in, it's nonsense to suggest changing gyms. Goal posts can get moved around all day man, but *kitten* advice masquerading as "efficient" is still *kitten* advice.
ETA: I struck through the above because there are tons of beginner routines out there that don't involve squatting. You can find decent beginner routines that focus completely on machines, well, as decent as a totally machine oriented workout can be anyway. But are they going to be as effective as something like a modified 5x5 would be? I would say not at all, recognizing that it's a completely arguable point.
Who said Rip/Mehdi invented the 5x5? Certainly not me. Pretty sure Rip's 3x5 was morphed from Starr and Starr 5×5 from Park. That is moot.
The point is SL is programmed as a Novice Strength Program. I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you still insisting SL is still a general strength program? If so ask Mehdi.
I never said she needs a program that doesn't include squats. I said firstly, to find a gym that can accommodate her and SL. She can't, so my option #2 is next of another proven structured program that will fit her goals/gym. Others are also recommending this as well.
SL is written with back squats programmed with a exact percentage of volume, recover, and intensity to achieve adaptation to progress. If you modify, it will be suboptimal to the original program as written.
Example of 45lb goblet squats vs. empty low bar squat..
Which one will strengthen her hamstrings, lower back, abs more within the structure of squatting in SL?
Anybody who is capable of programming a routine understands that concept. Why cut a program short or not get the most out of it I ask you?
Modifying is the last option, to keep things simple for a novice lifter to run a program a progress forward.
I see this as a viable first option when injuries, age, handicaps, or even a vacation are in the mix because there really isn't many other options. If the OP decides to go that route, instead of #2 it's not my advice, but it's no skin off.my back.
OP I wish the best for you and hope you really enjoy and hit all your goals of something I'm truly passionate about for over 37 years.
Goodluck!
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Hey all,
So I've just checked out the one and only gym I have access to near my new home. It's a nice enough place ; clean and the equipment looks new. They have free weights and dumbbells but they have no squat cages - just the squat and bench smith machines . I was hoping to start a beginner lifting program like Stronglifts but from what I read they essentially say to never never use the Smith machines - that they force you into unnatural forma and you don't build the same because you aren't stabilizing the weight yourself. I'm working out alone so I can't just have someone spot me. So I try to use dumbbells instead? Or do I just use the Smith machines? I don't have the option to get my own equipment and I really and stuck using this particular gym so I would welcome any advice!
Have you asked the staff/management about adding a squat cage? My gym didn't at first, but we now have three due to the increased demand.
You can't be the only one looking to use this - ask other members and see where this goes.1 -
TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
It's not only a direct answer, it's the best solution if possible.TicoCortez wrote: »Jesus. The OP said they're stuck with their current gym. Change gyms? Find a "real" gym? What's the point of saying that? Ya feel super alpha now?
OP Are you training for competition? Is there a specific reason you need to hit the squat numbers as listed? If it's just general strength and muscle retention, the key is progressive strength building in small increments while paying attention to proper form. However, it's not a religion. You can modify if you need to. Definitely don't use the Smith for squats. If you have to use dumbbells, use dumbbells. If they have a leg press, swap the leg press for squats. You can still adjust the weight gradually and progressively and build strength and muscle. Squats primarily hit the quads, and secondarily glutes, adductors, hamstrings, etc. The leg press also primarily hits the quads, and to a degree, the glutes and adductors. I would do some accessory lifts that hit the hamstrings, glutes, and adductors, and call it a day.
Of course if you do have specific strength/bodybuilding goals that demand squats, the leg press isn't going to translate in anywhere near a linear manner, so you may need to consider looking for a new program.
ETA: I forgot the erectors. You might want to consider adding some good mornings or romainian deadlift accessory lifts for the lower back. The squats hit those as well.
Second one is to change programs to fit the needs.
Third is a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery.
Nothing alpha about being efficient with a answer.
But that's the thing man, "Find a real gym" is completely arbitrary. And doing 1 main lift and 2 or 3 accessory lifts to substitute for 1 specific lift in an otherwise solid program doesn't qualify as "a bunch of random lifts that is not structured specifically to a program since each lift will require different volume, intensity, and recovery." It's modifying one part of an otherwise simple, effective program to get around not being able to change gyms, or to have to try to find an equally simple and effective other program to suit your goals. As long as you're doing lifts that hit the same muscle groups, paying attention to proper form and progressing gradually on the weight increase, you're fine. It's not as demanding and precise as you're making it sound.
Sure if op is competing or has specific goals then substituting that lift with the others might not be the best option, but if it's just for general strength and/or muscle retention then it's perfectly viable as long as it is kept in mind that the progression shouldn't be expected to follow the same path as strict adherence to the program as it is.
SL5X5 is a strength program specifically designed to gain strength fast in a short period of time. It is not a general strength program.
As a novice lifter one shouldn't modify a program without understanding the purpose of the program and the lifts within in it. Such as why abs are worked in a back squat and not a leg press, or a low bar position will work more hamstrings than a high bar position, etc...
SL5X5 strength program is designed with basic barbell movements. Accessory and assistance work is for later.
We can't assume the OP goals are unless stated.
The OP stated this particular place has free weights and dumbells.
Find a real gym is straight forward advice for that particular program. Do you really think progressing with dumbells (your first suggestion) will go far on SL5x5? Adding 5lbs with dumbells isn't possible under SL structure and then there's also grip strength that burdens that option. I certainly wouldn't advice any novice to modify a strength program, not alone modify it suboptimally. These IMHO are still the best options.
1. Finding a real gym that actually has the standard equipment (cage/rack) needed for the chosen program as written.
2..Finding a different program that fits the gym/goals chosen.
3. Modifying a strength program suboptimally.
1. OP said they were looking to start a beginner lifting program. SL is that. And it is indeed a safe assumption that they are looking to build foundational strength.
2. They said THEY CANNOT CHANGE GYMS. So according to your advice they can't do ANY program that recommends or includes squatting which is all but very few, especially when you're talking about a beginning lifter. What program would you recommend in this case? (And remember you can't modify it because then muscle Jesus won't bless your gains.)
3.They can still do a modified version of stronglifts, a beginner's lifting program by modifying ONE LIFT out of the entire routine. And no they won't progress with dumbbells or even with the leg press and accessory lifts like they would with the squat. Which was stated SEVERAL times. If this is indeed the case, then it's not a suboptimal change as they can still build foundational strength as a beginning lifter. And modifying, again, ONE LIFT with good advice from experienced lifters while being careful on how they progress is not the same as a having a beginner completely change a program. Especially with a program that starts you out with an empty bar. You're starting to border on histrionic.
1. SL5x5 is a direct rip off of Starting Strength which by all means is a beginner strength program and is not a general fitness program. Ask either Rip or Mehdi and they will confirm. Perhaps you didn't know that, but it's a fact regardless. Both are marketed as and programed for strength as a priority, not just "lifting" or "general fitness". I never once said don't do the program regardless of her goals, I said find a real gym that had the equipment to do the program optimally(being she mentioned the SL program).
2. Original post was she was stuck using gym. This isn't always set in stone when first worded by any novice, but she elaborated & confirmed on a later post. Regardless my advice was and still is as to find a program that can utilize what equipment available. Second option is to find a program that fits her goals/gym. As mentioned previously there are several decent ones that are exclusively for dumbbells for her gym. I believe the sticky with link(s) is available at top of main page.
3. Modifying a program is still the lowest option that can be utilized. Changing the strength program is suboptimal by definition since one couldnt go through the same progression of a barbell squat. One would stall much faster on a major part of the program.
I'm not saying the third option should not be done in this situation, I'm saying just that....it's the third option. I'm sure there are a few more with more info from the OP.
1. Neither Rip nor Medhi invented 5x5. Reg Park was doing 5x5 DECADES before those guys, and it has been recommended throughout the years as a solid way to build foundational strength, which is why it gets recommended to beginning lifters so often, whether by SL or SS.
2. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of another program, but finding one that doesn't include squatting, that is geared towards a beginner is HIGHLY unlikely. At some point, you're going to have to modify. What's the difference of modifying this or any other program to fit the situation? Sure, you can do a full routine with nothing but dumbbells but how is that anymore optimal for a someone looking for a beginning routine, than a routine that allows them to learn and progress properly, quickly, and more efficiently on bench, deadlift, rows, and ohp, while modifying the lift for squats while they are waiting for circumstances to change? They can still continue learning about compound lifting, build a solid strength base, and educate themselves so that when the proper resources are available they can add in what they weren't able to before.
3. My main issue isn't with the idea of another program, or even another gym, but when someone says they're stuck with the gym they're in, it's nonsense to suggest changing gyms. Goal posts can get moved around all day man, but *kitten* advice masquerading as "efficient" is still *kitten* advice.
ETA: I struck through the above because there are tons of beginner routines out there that don't involve squatting. You can find decent beginner routines that focus completely on machines, well, as decent as a totally machine oriented workout can be anyway. But are they going to be as effective as something like a modified 5x5 would be? I would say not at all, recognizing that it's a completely arguable point.
Who said Rip/Mehdi invented the 5x5? Certainly not me. Pretty sure Rip's 3x5 was morphed from Starr and Starr 5×5 from Park. That is moot.
The point is SL is programmed as a Novice Strength Program. I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you still insisting SL is still a general strength program? If so ask Mehdi.
I never said she needs a program that doesn't include squats. I said firstly, to find a gym that can accommodate her and SL. She can't, so my option #2 is next of another proven structured program that will fit her goals/gym. Others are also recommending this as well.
SL is written with back squats programmed with a exact percentage of volume, recover, and intensity to achieve adaptation to progress. If you modify, it will be suboptimal to the original program as written.
Example of 45lb goblet squats vs. empty low bar squat..
Which one will strengthen her hamstrings, lower back, abs more within the structure of squatting in SL?
Anybody who is capable of programming a routine understands that concept. Why cut a program short or not get the most out of it I ask you?
Modifying is the last option, to keep things simple for a novice lifter to run a program a progress forward.
I see this as a viable first option when injuries, age, handicaps, or even a vacation are in the mix because there really isn't many other options. If the OP decides to go that route, instead of #2 it's not my advice, but it's no skin off.my back.
OP I wish the best for you and hope you really enjoy and hit all your goals of something I'm truly passionate about for over 37 years.
Goodluck!
Actually, no. Firstly you said:Find a real gym.
Hence the entire discussion, as this is arbitrary advice for a beginner and every gym is a "real" gym. The rest of it came about because you got all sensitive over my opinion that it was *kitten* "advice".
But it's a moot point as both of us are clearly entrenched in our respective opinions. So yeah, I'll bow out as well. Good luck OP.0 -
I doubt most realize what it's like living in a small city in a developing country. There are literally no other gyms.
just stopping by to say i admire all the hell out of you. i found my introduction to 5x5 faint-makingly terrifying even in a first-world gym with all the amenities and no language problem at all. so i really hope that it works.
i'm no kind of an expert, but as someone who's rarely reached 95 pounds with her squats without hitting an injury of some kind, i have kept lifting for three years while working around that problem. so i have a few thoughts.
- idk if you're brave enough to do bridges and whatever that other move's called in a space that already thinks you're uncomfortably interesting just for the fact that you're there. but they'll definitely get to your glutes.
- goblet squats do work. and here's where i'm just another amateur with a hypothesis, but basically my attitude is: if lifting is ultimately about the volume your muscles 'do' in a single workout, then it's not technically anyone's business if i want to take the total programmed volume represented by 25 'real' squats with the bar and that day's prescribed weight, and parcel it out into little nickel-and-dime repetitions using a dumbbell instead. probably there are professional trainers in this conversation who can chime in if that's massively wrong, but that kind of thing is my standard go-to when i don't trust myself with the bar.
0 -
canadianlbs wrote: »I doubt most realize what it's like living in a small city in a developing country. There are literally no other gyms.
just stopping by to say i admire all the hell out of you. i found my introduction to 5x5 faint-makingly terrifying even in a first-world gym with all the amenities and no language problem at all. so i really hope that it works.
i'm no kind of an expert, but as someone who's rarely reached 95 pounds with her squats without hitting an injury of some kind, i have kept lifting for three years while working around that problem. so i have a few thoughts.
- idk if you're brave enough to do bridges and whatever that other move's called in a space that already thinks you're uncomfortably interesting just for the fact that you're there. but they'll definitely get to your glutes.
- goblet squats do work. and here's where i'm just another amateur with a hypothesis, but basically my attitude is: if lifting is ultimately about the volume your muscles 'do' in a single workout, then it's not technically anyone's business if i want to take the total programmed volume represented by 25 'real' squats with the bar and that day's prescribed weight, and parcel it out into little nickel-and-dime repetitions using a dumbbell instead. probably there are professional trainers in this conversation who can chime in if that's massively wrong, but that kind of thing is my standard go-to when i don't trust myself with the bar.
Thanks! But don't be too impressed - I haven't actually done it yet !! Lol. Its really all the people here on MFP who are motivating me past my own extreme discomfort into trying it. I did start at my old gym and did two of the workouts and really liked it so that helps me too.
Funny should mention the bridges - I read about weighted hip bridges from the Strong Curve program and wanted to incorporate them! Wasnt sure if it would be too much along with the other stuff in Strong Lifts but after this thread I'm seeing there are a lot of ways to accomplish my goal so I just need to figure out something safe, progressive, and sustainable. The goblet squats are a good idea too. And I'm also curious about the zerchers mentioned by @sardelsa and @Rusty740 . I'm moving to this new city this weekend so I'm going to go try to talk to the gym management and see what they say about squat cages etc. And if that's a no go, I will start trying the suggestions in this thread till I find something I can handle.
Thanks everyone for sharing your experience /advice !2 -
I would not run SL without a squat rack.
Run a different program.1
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