Would you rather have GMO oranges or none at all?
Replies
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NONE...They could be crossed with Pig for longer shelf life...or...0
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http://saulofhearts.com/blog/gmo
A Liberal's Defense of GMOs
June 05, 2013
Let me get a few things out of the way.
I'm a crazy hippie. I go to Burning Man every year. I teach yoga. I live in a co-op. For the past two years I've been delivering organic vegetables for a local delivery service. I've been eating vegetarian for years, and vegan for the past four months.
I'm also fascinated by genetics. I read every book that comes my way on evolutionary theory, population genetics, and mapping the genome. I took several classes on the subject at the University of Pennsylvania. All told, I have a pretty solid understanding of how genes work.
And ultimately, I'm just not that scared of GMOs.
Now don't get me wrong. I understand where my liberal friends are coming from. I share the same desire for a safe and healthy food supply. There's a LOT that disturbs me about the state of food production and distribution in America.
I think Monsanto is evil, that patenting seeds and suing farmers is unethical, and that some GMO crops (like Roundup Ready Soybeans) lend themselves to irresponsible pesticide use and cross-contamination.
But I'm also not going to let my anti-corporate sentiments get in the way of a diverse and promising field of research.
When genetic engineering is used to decrease pesticide use, to add nutrients to crops in malnourished countries, and otherwise improve the quality of our food products, then it's a valuable tool that can contribute to a safe and healthy food supply.
I want to address three points that are often brought up by anti-GMO advocates that are either simply untrue, or a lot more nuanced than we've been led to believe.
1. GMOs create more "unnatural" mutations than traditional breeding methods.
Genetic manipulation is nothing new. Humans have been breeding plants and animals for thousands of years. Many of our staple crops (wheat, corn, soy), would not exist without human intervention. The same goes for domesticated farm species.
Whether we're using genetic modification or selective breeding, we're playing God either way. But some people seem to think that selective breeding is "safer" -- that it allows less opportunity for damaging mutations than genetic engineering does. This couldn't be more wrong.
The entire process of evolution is dependent upon mutation. UV radiation changes the structure of the DNA code in each individual organism. Most of these mutations aren't beneficial. Some leave out necessary proteins. Others add useless information. And yet, a percentage of these "errors" are helpful enough that they're passed along to future generations and become the new normal.
If there's any danger with genetic engineering, it's that we can be too precise in our manipulation. We can ensure that each new generation of seeds contains the exact same DNA sequence, double-checked for errors and mutations eliminated. The "unnatural" process actually produces less mutations, not more.
2. GMOs contain animal DNA that has been "spliced" into plants.
One of the most enduring myths about genetic engineering concerns a GM tomato which, as legend would have it, contained flounder genes spliced into tomato DNA. While it's true that Calgene experimented with a freeze-resistant tomato, they used a "synthesized ... antifreeze gene based on the winter flounder gene" -- not a cut-and-pasted copy of the gene itself.
Those freeze-resistant tomatoes never made it to market, but a different version called the Flavr Savr did. Tomatoes contain a protein called polygalacturonase (PG), which breaks down the pectin in the cell walls, causing the tomato to soften as it ripens. To create a tomato that would ripen more slowly, Calgene took the gene that encodes for the PG protein and reversed it. This backwards strand of DNA, known as an "antisense" gene, binds to the forward-running strand and cancels it out. Without PG, the pectin (and therefore the tomato) breaks down more slowly. The simplicity of the process is remarkable. No toxic chemicals, no mysterious bits of DNA. Just a simple tweak of the tomato's own genetic code.
But hold on a minute. What if they had used a gene from a fish in creating this tomato? Would the tomato taste fishy? Would you have to watch out for fish bones in your pasta sauce? Not unless you've added anchovies.
Genes are basically bits of computer code that are interchangeable from species to species. When you isolate a tiny bit of gene, it doesn't retain the essence of whichever species it came from. You might have a bit of DNA that says simply, "Grow appendage X on the abdomen," but doesn't specify what kind of appendage. If you put that code into a fly, it activates the part of DNA that grows a wing. Put that same code into a mouse and it grows a foreleg. It doesn't make the mouse any more like a fly.
3. GMO's are radioactive, cause cancer, and are bad for the environment.
This is a trickier question to answer, and I'll be the first to admit that we need more research into the health effects of GM products. But I'm going to bet that the answer turns out to be something like this: some GMOs are safe, and others are not. Lumping all GMOs into the same category is like lumping all fertilizers or all pesticides into the same category. Genetic changes are only as dangerous as the proteins they encode for -- just as in any plant. Consider how many "natural" plants have genes that produce poisons and toxins.
In the case of the Flavr Savr tomato, I wouldn't be too worried. It simply blocks a protein that the tomato itself produces. In the case of herbicide-resistant soybeans, I'd want to know more. What kind of herbicide is being sprayed on the plants? Are traces of the herbicide still found in the food when it reaches our plate?
While I voted for the labeling act that was on the California ballot last year, a simple "contains GMOs" label would be of little use to me. I want to know what specifically about the organism was modified so I can reach my own conclusions.
Personally, I think the GMO scare is a distraction from far more important issues going on in the food industry:
-- A factory-farming system that's abusive to the animals we raise and results in unnatural, highly-processed meats
-- An obesity epidemic resulting from subsidized corn crops and unchecked fast food marketing
-- A glut of "natural and artificial" flavorings, sweeteners, and colors
-- Lack of access to quality produce in urban "food deserts"
If we really want to do something about public health issues, then these are the problems we should be focusing on. I'm not going to object to something that could have a positive effect on the world's food supply because there's a chance that something I eat might give me cancer ten or twenty years down the line.
That risk already exists. I'm just as likely to get cancer from the un-modified, but highly-processed foods that are already in the market.
In the meantime, I'm going to support those GM efforts that might actually do some good for the world. There's the Golden Rice Project, which fortifies rice in developing countries so as to combat micronutrient deficiencies. There have been attempts to genetically modify trees both to fight pollution and to decrease fossil fuel dependency.
And then there's the banana vaccine for Hepatitis B, which, due to regulatory restrictions, may be reworked into a non-edible vaccine in the tobacco plant.
I don't know about you guys, but these sound like pretty liberal objectives to me.
GM crops, combined with sustainable and organic agriculture, might do more to advance our cause than any other scientific advancement of the modern era.
By all means, let's March Against Monsanto. But then let's put genetic engineering into the hands of forward-thinking, progressive scientists so we can start a real agricultural revolution.0 -
Serious question--what makes something a GMO? How is it different from selective breeding of agricultural plants over generations? I buy plants and seeds for my garden that have been vastly improved for flavor, size and disease resistance from what people grew a couple of hundreds of years ago. I thought that making nutritious plants more readily available was a good thing.
its much different since you do not chemically alter them directly by selective breeding you also do not add other genes spliced into it from dif plants or species, I would have thought this to be obvious?0 -
NO GMO's. People really need to start looking at the food they are eating. The US better wake up and understand that this food will kill you. It is not OK. It also affects the organic crops and once exposed alters the DNA of those crops also. When you food source is so contaminated you can not eat it anymore you start saying Oh I don't think GMO's are a good idea. Studies are already showing GMO cause disease, require increased pesticides to be sprayed on GMO crops. There is nothing good about GMO's.0
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I think they should make oranges with the vodka already in it.
That would be genius....0 -
GMO's = Genetically Modified Organisms.0
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Considering we are exposed to so much every single day, I say, 'Why not?' Sure, there could possibly be a slight variance in their sweetness / taste, but if it keeps the oranges around, then go for it.
If you don't want GMO's, then don't buy them. It really is that simple.0 -
Oranges...I love clementines and those are truly an abomination of nature.0
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Seeds of Death: Unveiling The Lies of GMO's - Full Movie - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6OxbpLwEjQ
Seeds of Destruction
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSDEkoPwMfk0 -
I went on pubmed to find out more. Came across an abstract comparing 3 GM corn varieties and their effect on rats. I have so much more to learn, but the side effects they encountered are disturbing:
"Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver, the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system. We conclude that these data highlight signs of hepatorenal toxicity, possibly due to the new pesticides specific to each GM corn. In addition, unintended direct or indirect metabolic consequences of the genetic modification cannot be excluded."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/200111360 -
http://saulofhearts.com/blog/gmo
A Liberal's Defense of GMOs
June 05, 2013
Let me get a few things out of the way.
I'm a crazy hippie. I go to Burning Man every year. I teach yoga. I live in a co-op. For the past two years I've been delivering organic vegetables for a local delivery service. I've been eating vegetarian for years, and vegan for the past four months.
I'm also fascinated by genetics. I read every book that comes my way on evolutionary theory, population genetics, and mapping the genome. I took several classes on the subject at the University of Pennsylvania. All told, I have a pretty solid understanding of how genes work.
And ultimately, I'm just not that scared of GMOs.
Now don't get me wrong. I understand where my liberal friends are coming from. I share the same desire for a safe and healthy food supply. There's a LOT that disturbs me about the state of food production and distribution in America.
I think Monsanto is evil, that patenting seeds and suing farmers is unethical, and that some GMO crops (like Roundup Ready Soybeans) lend themselves to irresponsible pesticide use and cross-contamination.
But I'm also not going to let my anti-corporate sentiments get in the way of a diverse and promising field of research.
When genetic engineering is used to decrease pesticide use, to add nutrients to crops in malnourished countries, and otherwise improve the quality of our food products, then it's a valuable tool that can contribute to a safe and healthy food supply.
I want to address three points that are often brought up by anti-GMO advocates that are either simply untrue, or a lot more nuanced than we've been led to believe.
1. GMOs create more "unnatural" mutations than traditional breeding methods.
Genetic manipulation is nothing new. Humans have been breeding plants and animals for thousands of years. Many of our staple crops (wheat, corn, soy), would not exist without human intervention. The same goes for domesticated farm species.
Whether we're using genetic modification or selective breeding, we're playing God either way. But some people seem to think that selective breeding is "safer" -- that it allows less opportunity for damaging mutations than genetic engineering does. This couldn't be more wrong.
The entire process of evolution is dependent upon mutation. UV radiation changes the structure of the DNA code in each individual organism. Most of these mutations aren't beneficial. Some leave out necessary proteins. Others add useless information. And yet, a percentage of these "errors" are helpful enough that they're passed along to future generations and become the new normal.
If there's any danger with genetic engineering, it's that we can be too precise in our manipulation. We can ensure that each new generation of seeds contains the exact same DNA sequence, double-checked for errors and mutations eliminated. The "unnatural" process actually produces less mutations, not more.
2. GMOs contain animal DNA that has been "spliced" into plants.
One of the most enduring myths about genetic engineering concerns a GM tomato which, as legend would have it, contained flounder genes spliced into tomato DNA. While it's true that Calgene experimented with a freeze-resistant tomato, they used a "synthesized ... antifreeze gene based on the winter flounder gene" -- not a cut-and-pasted copy of the gene itself.
Those freeze-resistant tomatoes never made it to market, but a different version called the Flavr Savr did. Tomatoes contain a protein called polygalacturonase (PG), which breaks down the pectin in the cell walls, causing the tomato to soften as it ripens. To create a tomato that would ripen more slowly, Calgene took the gene that encodes for the PG protein and reversed it. This backwards strand of DNA, known as an "antisense" gene, binds to the forward-running strand and cancels it out. Without PG, the pectin (and therefore the tomato) breaks down more slowly. The simplicity of the process is remarkable. No toxic chemicals, no mysterious bits of DNA. Just a simple tweak of the tomato's own genetic code.
But hold on a minute. What if they had used a gene from a fish in creating this tomato? Would the tomato taste fishy? Would you have to watch out for fish bones in your pasta sauce? Not unless you've added anchovies.
Genes are basically bits of computer code that are interchangeable from species to species. When you isolate a tiny bit of gene, it doesn't retain the essence of whichever species it came from. You might have a bit of DNA that says simply, "Grow appendage X on the abdomen," but doesn't specify what kind of appendage. If you put that code into a fly, it activates the part of DNA that grows a wing. Put that same code into a mouse and it grows a foreleg. It doesn't make the mouse any more like a fly.
3. GMO's are radioactive, cause cancer, and are bad for the environment.
This is a trickier question to answer, and I'll be the first to admit that we need more research into the health effects of GM products. But I'm going to bet that the answer turns out to be something like this: some GMOs are safe, and others are not. Lumping all GMOs into the same category is like lumping all fertilizers or all pesticides into the same category. Genetic changes are only as dangerous as the proteins they encode for -- just as in any plant. Consider how many "natural" plants have genes that produce poisons and toxins.
In the case of the Flavr Savr tomato, I wouldn't be too worried. It simply blocks a protein that the tomato itself produces. In the case of herbicide-resistant soybeans, I'd want to know more. What kind of herbicide is being sprayed on the plants? Are traces of the herbicide still found in the food when it reaches our plate?
While I voted for the labeling act that was on the California ballot last year, a simple "contains GMOs" label would be of little use to me. I want to know what specifically about the organism was modified so I can reach my own conclusions.
Personally, I think the GMO scare is a distraction from far more important issues going on in the food industry:
-- A factory-farming system that's abusive to the animals we raise and results in unnatural, highly-processed meats
-- An obesity epidemic resulting from subsidized corn crops and unchecked fast food marketing
-- A glut of "natural and artificial" flavorings, sweeteners, and colors
-- Lack of access to quality produce in urban "food deserts"
If we really want to do something about public health issues, then these are the problems we should be focusing on. I'm not going to object to something that could have a positive effect on the world's food supply because there's a chance that something I eat might give me cancer ten or twenty years down the line.
That risk already exists. I'm just as likely to get cancer from the un-modified, but highly-processed foods that are already in the market.
In the meantime, I'm going to support those GM efforts that might actually do some good for the world. There's the Golden Rice Project, which fortifies rice in developing countries so as to combat micronutrient deficiencies. There have been attempts to genetically modify trees both to fight pollution and to decrease fossil fuel dependency.
And then there's the banana vaccine for Hepatitis B, which, due to regulatory restrictions, may be reworked into a non-edible vaccine in the tobacco plant.
I don't know about you guys, but these sound like pretty liberal objectives to me.
GM crops, combined with sustainable and organic agriculture, might do more to advance our cause than any other scientific advancement of the modern era.
By all means, let's March Against Monsanto. But then let's put genetic engineering into the hands of forward-thinking, progressive scientists so we can start a real agricultural revolution.
The Best most educated post ever!!! Thank you for a sane educated discussion!0 -
In and of itself, the concept of modified food in theory doesn't bother me as long as they were treated like drugs. Assess previously untested chemicals produced in the modded version for safety by the same standards and leave them open for removal from the market in the event that it turns out that they in fact do cause problems. Give the companies a few years of exclusive production but time it so the generics have a few years to sell before the bugs catch up and add some stipulations to holding a food mod patent regarding abusive pricing practices. They'd still be profitable enough and diversity of modifications in use promoted by shorter patents that encouraged discovery of new effective mods would likely result in a longer period of effectiveness for each mod.
In practice the assessments are not as thorough as they ought to be, efforts are being made to block the path for removal of unsafe mods from the market, and the current system rewards a trend of one mod at a time and entails exclusivity of mod production that results in the ability of food mod patent holders to effectively control a monopoly.0 -
In my life, very few things are "all or nothing." I try to grow what I can, then I try to go local, then it's what I can get. So yes, I would eat some, but I don't eat oranges daily or even monthly.0
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I will stick with peaches- non GMO of course.0
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None for me! I don't care for oranges or orange juice.0
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Ahhh why not, somethings gotta kill me, why not delicious oranges?0
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I went on pubmed to find out more. Came across an abstract comparing 3 GM corn varieties and their effect on rats. I have so much more to learn, but the side effects they encountered are disturbing:
"Effects were mostly associated with the kidney and liver, the dietary detoxifying organs, although different between the 3 GMOs. Other effects were also noticed in the heart, adrenal glands, spleen and haematopoietic system. We conclude that these data highlight signs of hepatorenal toxicity, possibly due to the new pesticides specific to each GM corn. In addition, unintended direct or indirect metabolic consequences of the genetic modification cannot be excluded."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20011136
You should watch those videos I linked. You'll find them very informative. I think it's great that you are trying to educate yourself. So many people just bury their heads in the sand.0 -
Serious question--what makes something a GMO? How is it different from selective breeding of agricultural plants over generations? I buy plants and seeds for my garden that have been vastly improved for flavor, size and disease resistance from what people grew a couple of hundreds of years ago. I thought that making nutritious plants more readily available was a good thing.
its much different since you do not chemically alter them directly by selective breeding you also do not add other genes spliced into it from dif plants or species, I would have thought this to be obvious?
Yes, you do. Cross pollination crosses different varieties of plants, and changes the chemical compound of the finished result. For example, I buy banana peppers that were altered by combining different parent plant's DNA to get different levels of capsaicin in the sweet versus hot banana peppers. This is a basic change in the chemicals and genes of each plant.
I thought that was obvious, and still want a serious answer in how it's different if done in a laboratory with a microscope, or a botanist's greenhouse (which still counts as a laboratory).0 -
Serious question--what makes something a GMO? How is it different from selective breeding of agricultural plants over generations? I buy plants and seeds for my garden that have been vastly improved for flavor, size and disease resistance from what people grew a couple of hundreds of years ago. I thought that making nutritious plants more readily available was a good thing.
its much different since you do not chemically alter them directly by selective breeding you also do not add other genes spliced into it from dif plants or species, I would have thought this to be obvious?
Yes, you do. Cross pollination crosses different varieties of plants, and changes the chemical compound of the finished result. For example, I buy banana peppers that were altered by combining different parent plant's DNA to get different levels of capsaicin in the sweet versus hot banana peppers. This is a basic change in the chemicals and genes of each plant.
I thought that was obvious, and still want a serious answer in how it's different if done in a laboratory with a microscope, or a botanist's greenhouse (which still counts as a laboratory).
Natural selection or selective breeding involves natural mutations over time. The DNA of the organism isn't forced. The genetic modification of organisms involves modifying the actual DNA, sometimes combining the DNA of two organisms that would never combine on their own. Like the recent Genetically engineered salmon that was crossed with eel DNA so that it grows much larger and faster than regular salmon. If it gets approved in the US it won't be labeled so you won't know your eating an animal that was created in a lab.0 -
[abridged] .......By all means, let's March Against Monsanto. But then let's put genetic engineering into the hands of forward-thinking, progressive scientists so we can start a real agricultural revolution.
The Best most educated post ever!!! Thank you for a sane educated discussion!
Second that. Wow, that really was impressive, thanks for sharing such thorough information. I am on the opposition side of GMO, but I try to hear out the facts in any matter, and this definitely enlighted my perspective a little.0 -
I could simply not care less about GMO products, based on the current research I have read. If I see future research to make me change my mind, I'll reevaluate my position then.
Science has oft given us improvements that help us survive as a species.0 -
I don't have any concern over GMO's at this point.0
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I think they should make oranges with the vodka already in it.
I would plant one of those trees in my yard.0 -
GMOs don't scare me.
I also don't care much for oranges though.0 -
Serious question--what makes something a GMO? How is it different from selective breeding of agricultural plants over generations? I buy plants and seeds for my garden that have been vastly improved for flavor, size and disease resistance from what people grew a couple of hundreds of years ago. I thought that making nutritious plants more readily available was a good thing.
its much different since you do not chemically alter them directly by selective breeding you also do not add other genes spliced into it from dif plants or species, I would have thought this to be obvious?
Yes, you do. Cross pollination crosses different varieties of plants, and changes the chemical compound of the finished result. For example, I buy banana peppers that were altered by combining different parent plant's DNA to get different levels of capsaicin in the sweet versus hot banana peppers. This is a basic change in the chemicals and genes of each plant.
I thought that was obvious, and still want a serious answer in how it's different if done in a laboratory with a microscope, or a botanist's greenhouse (which still counts as a laboratory).
Natural selection or selective breeding involves natural mutations over time. The DNA of the organism isn't forced. The genetic modification of organisms involves modifying the actual DNA, sometimes combining the DNA of two organisms that would never combine on their own. Like the recent Genetically engineered salmon that was crossed with eel DNA so that it grows much larger and faster than regular salmon. If it gets approved in the US it won't be labeled so you won't know your eating an animal that was created in a lab.
Well, I can respect this answer a little more, but selective breeding by definition is altering the DNA of a plant for a desired result. When humans do it we select to get something beneficial to us, and we choose foster DNA changes that most help us. We create a product to help us, not allow nature to produce something "natural." That's basically the entire reason for agriculture. Everything we domesticate has been genetically modified.
I admit, a lot of my annoyance is because this sounds like fear mongering.0 -
None at all.
Organic sustainable growing is the way to go.
If it comes from a test tube it will not be going in my mouth.
This. Unfortunately these days it's hard to know. They don't want you to know you're consuming GMO's.
They?
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none0
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I don't like my options...
I don't either! I want my oranges, but...
There's too many unknown, unintended consequences of growing and consuming GMO crops. What effect might it have on pollinators? Will it produce allergic reactions in some people? Before taking this drastic step, is there another solution?0 -
Seriously, why does anyone care about oranges or any citrus fruit being "natural", hell they're all grown on grafts of the strongest/ most desirable base tree possible.
Because that happens in nature..0 -
Seriously, why does anyone care about oranges or any citrus fruit being "natural", hell they're all grown on grafts of the strongest/ most desirable base tree possible.
Because that happens in nature..
Natty 4 life0
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