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You dont need to calorie count
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To clarify a few things from my post that seem to be misinterpreted
Should find/eat foods that are hard to overindulge on does not mean never eating other foods that you may like/love that are calorie dense. It just means this using this tactic makes it easier to not overeat since you aren't tracking every calorie. Then when you are faced with a food you have to be more cautious around, you are aware of that and take whatever steps necessary, probably eating a smaller portion, or limiting frequency.
How do you know if you are eating more/less. Several ways...the scale will trend up or down, your hunger will be higher/lower or you can know look at the foods you eat...a lot of low calorie foods eaten means you're eating less than if you were eating a lot of high calorie foods. If you've been tracking calories you know the high calorie bombs, and you know what's not.
...
So, in short. Just because you don't understand something does not make it any less valid for the people who live that reality.
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You might believe in not doing it long term but I have to ... and I'm quite happy with that.
Very well said.3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.
OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."
How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?
I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.
The scale tells you...
I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.
I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.
Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...
That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.
I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...
You may be right about this last point, at least from a historical perspective. But it's a fairly recent development that people can carry the key tool for this process in their pocket.
The number of people who have historically counted calories for life using books and notepads is quite low, I'm sure. The number of people who can count calories for life using a smartphone will probably be much higher.6 -
To clarify a few things from my post that seem to be misinterpreted
Should find/eat foods that are hard to overindulge on does not mean never eating other foods that you may like/love that are calorie dense. It just means this using this tactic makes it easier to not overeat since you aren't tracking every calorie. Then when you are faced with a food you have to be more cautious around, you are aware of that and take whatever steps necessary, probably eating a smaller portion, or limiting frequency.
How do you know if you are eating more/less. Several ways...the scale will trend up or down, your hunger will be higher/lower or you can know look at the foods you eat...a lot of low calorie foods eaten means you're eating less than if you were eating a lot of high calorie foods. If you've been tracking calories you know the high calorie bombs, and you know what's not.
Here is the problem. Eating food that are hard to overindulge in mean (to me) eating food I dont like that much. I've tried that twice before. I got bored after 2 months and gave up. If I tend to avoid foods that I'm more likely to eat, like samoosas, how will I know to intuitively eat less when I am faced with them since I have no idea what their nutritional make up is?
Oh use the hunger test you say? As already stated that doesn't work for me either. I'm permanently hungry. To give you idea, I can literally eat entire dish of cream and cheese rich lasagna and still be hungry. So no!
This part of your post confuses me. How does the scale help you not overindulge? I mean, you know 12 cookies is too much whether you weigh it or not. And calorie/nutrition information will be on the box of cookies. And after the lasagna you will still be hungry whether you measure or not.
I'm not saying you shouldn't log, I'm just not sure how these examples back up the need.2 -
If someone is logging, then they put in the 12 cookies and the calorie count is staring them in the face. If I want to eat 12 cookies one day, and I know how much it is, if Iḿ tracking everything I eat I can plan accordingly. Maybe I just eat a salad for the rest of the day, or two light meals and work out extra, whatever. Without tracking it is easy to just eat the 12 cookies and forget about it.
I plan to log for the rest of my life. Itś easy and I feel that it gives me a sense of control over my diet, and also Iḿ losing from it. There is no guess work involved. I dont use a food scale and my logging is probably not that precise. However, it is a lot more precise than my not logging or trying to keep a tally in my head. I have a job and other responsibilities. I dont have them mental capacity to accurately keep track of all I ate in a day and also run the rest of my life. I have not been obese all my life. My first 30 years I was at normal weight but I was very active and exercised a lot. I never counted calories. Once I started dieting (not calorie counting) but Atkins, low carb, low fat, whatever, I did lose weight but then I´d get tired of the diet and go back to eating as before. With MFP, I feel like I have found a way to lose weight--Iḿ losing 2 lbs. a week--which is much more rapid and consistent than ever before, and like I said, I have more control. I also have learned from being on this site, that I dont have to eat a bunch of food I dont like. I was a vegetlarian/vegan for several years (beyond age 30) and that also probably kept my weight lower. But I am not any longer and want to eat the foods I like. Calorie tracking and logging has helped me with that. I know how many calories I need and I generally pick health foods but I dont have to not eat carbs and I don´t have to avoid meat either. I just have to figure out the best way to put them all together.2 -
I'd agree that 12 cookies are too much. But here's an example from back when I did WW that a leader brought up. In her workplace, biscotti were brought in daily by a co-worker and kept on a table for snacking. The leader looked up biscotti in the WW guide and the entry was something like "Biscotti (1, 1.5 oz) 2 points". So, she happily took a cookie each day and logged it as 2 points. This went on for a few weeks and she noticed that her weight seemed to be creeping up. One day, out of curiosity, she put the biscotti on a scale and discovered that it actually weighed about 7 oz.
I know that if I cube 8 oz of Gouda and nibble on it during the day, it's a calorie bomb. I may not be aware that 2 oz could be putting me over my daily calories unless I weigh it. But once I'm aware of those calories, I can figure out how much I can eat without going over my target and, if I'm still hungry, opt for cherry tomatoes, watermelon, etc., to fill me up without exceeding my goals.7 -
lucerorojo wrote: »If someone is logging, then they put in the 12 cookies and the calorie count is staring them in the face. If I want to eat 12 cookies one day, and I know how much it is, if Iḿ tracking everything I eat I can plan accordingly. Maybe I just eat a salad for the rest of the day, or two light meals and work out extra, whatever. Without tracking it is easy to just eat the 12 cookies and forget about it.
Thanks for that explanation. Eating 12 cookies and forgetting about it is not something I'll ever wrap my head around. But people are different.0 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »I'd agree that 12 cookies are too much. But here's an example from back when I did WW that a leader brought up. In her workplace, biscotti were brought in daily by a co-worker and kept on a table for snacking. The leader looked up biscotti in the WW guide and the entry was something like "Biscotti (1, 1.5 oz) 2 points". So, she happily took a cookie each day and logged it as 2 points. This went on for a few weeks and she noticed that her weight seemed to be creeping up. One day, out of curiosity, she put the biscotti on a scale and discovered that it actually weighed about 7 oz.
I know that if I cube 8 oz of Gouda and nibble on it during the day, it's a calorie bomb. I may not be aware that 2 oz could be putting me over my daily calories unless I weigh it. But once I'm aware of those calories, I can figure out how much I can eat without going over my target and, if I'm still hungry, opt for cherry tomatoes, watermelon, etc., to fill me up without exceeding my goals.
This make more sense, though honestly I would know the difference between 1.5 oz and 7 oz when i picked something up. Not the exact weight, but I'd know that it was certainly more than 1.5.
The cheese example I totally get though.1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Don't we all know how to intuitively eat? It's just some of us (me included) choose to ignore that little voice in our heads and that overstuffed feeling in our guts. I intuitively know full well i don't need that whole bag of chips, dessert after dinner every night or that extra scoop of pasta/rice/mashed potato, but i choose to ignore the sensible side of my brain and follow the "I need something tasty even though I'm not hungry" or the "That tastes so good, I'm not going to stop at a normal/sensible portion" side..
Probably not entirely what you're referring to, but no, not everyone does. My small child is developmentally delayed and on the Autism Spectrum, and he will not necessarily eat when he should be hungry (it's been a couple hours and some hard play since his last meal). He has always been like this. Always. When we were in NICU and he was 2 days old, the nurses would tell me that I had to let him tell me when he was hungry. I tried. He never did. He would go over an hour longer past feeding time without 'telling' me he was hungry, then be so worked up that he wouldn't nurse. After a lot of time keeping and analysis, I (and the nurses) determined that if I regulated his food intake, he would be fine. His body and his brain don't communicate the way they're 'supposed' to. As he gets older, he may realise he's hungry, but he may never do.*
This is why we need to teach ourselves good habits: yes, that bag of crisps/chips is very good. It will be very good tomorrow. So I'll save some of it for then. Still eating it, just not all at once.
*This not 'hearing' what the body is telling goes to other things, too. Toilet training? Don't get me started. He has to hurt himself pretty badly to notice. And we had zero problems with teething. All of this is not atypical for individuals on the Spectrum.1 -
I think a lot of what people successfully do are ways to avoid thoughtless or mindless eating (which focusing on how you feel before eating MIGHT help with, but might not). For me, eating according to a regular schedule and not snacking and being mindful about portions -- all of which I consider different from "intuitive eating" -- makes it unnecessary to log for maintenance (for losing too, but losing is easier when I log unless I am quite restrictive). But if I wanted to eat more impulsively or graze or the like -- which I don't, but some do and find not being able to a bigger burden than logging -- then logging would make that possible for me, and without it I think I'd gain under those conditions.0
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Americans in particular use a lot of visual clues to tell themselves they are done. An empty plate or bowl, rather than a feeling of fullness. That's why for me, I need to portion things out into the correct calorie portion, rather then just eat from a bag or large bowl.
The Bottomless Bowl experiment is interesting research into it.6 -
I am one who will need to log every day. And honestly, it makes me feel good to look at the report and see that I only went over my calorie goal a few times in the past few months. It may not be perfect, but it works for me.3
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.
OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."
How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?
I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.
The scale tells you...
I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.
I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.
Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...
That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.
Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.
I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...
I tend to agree with this. Especially counting every single calorie / bite. And really, at some point would you not learn what 80 g of rice or a large egg vs. a medium egg looks like? When paying that much attention I just don't get how it wouldn't become obvious after a while.
But a lot o things people do seem crazy to me, so IDK why this should be different. I probably seem crazy to others.
Whenever I stop paying attention for more than a week or so, my eyeballed portions start to get bigger and bigger. My brain telling me that I've done well today and totally have room for a handful of chocolate covered peanuts becomes harder to argue with. My between meals snacking in general becomes more prominent. Maybe that just means I'm weak or easily deluded by the voices in my head
but it is what it is.
If you asked me right now to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl, I could probably eyeball to within a couple of grams. If you asked me to do the same thing after a month of not logging, it would be substantially more and I would honestly not realize it. I wouldn't be a glutton or anything, but I would eventually end up back at 15 lbs heavier, swearing I hadn't changed a thing.
I'm only really looking at your first sentence here... but not logging does not equal not paying attention...i very much pay attention to my diet and fitness, I just don't need it to be on paper to do so.
It's like at work... my boss or his boss says how much is that going to cost and so we have the budget? I don't exactly have time to break out spread sheets in detail... any answer needs to be now... so I shake it around in my head and come up with something reasonable and put it on paper later as a projection and later reality or not...but I have to have a general idea to begin with which comes namely from experience doing what I do....
then there are other expenses which are no brainer that we can absorb... which is the vast majority of them. Some people think they're biggies, but they're really just ordinary stuff...
I treat all this the same way...
Oh yeah, I was just talking about me. When I stop logging, I stop paying as much attention. I don't completely fall off the wagon, but I do start to misjudge the small stuff. That's my cross to bear, I in no way suggested it was universal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of others (smaller women especially) who find it difficult to split the hairs necessary intuitively. I'm just not good at the balancing act over weeks and months, and I find it way more stressful to wonder if I'm doing it right, waiting until the scale starts to tell me I screwed up. As a self-described detail freak, logging is easy and stress free for me. I have no delusions that is typical for most people.
Just not a fan of the suggestion in some posts (not yours specifically) that there is something wrong with people who want or need to continue logging indefinitely. Like we need to strive to do better, like the recovered people who can move beyond logging.11 -
I don't NEED to count calories, but I CHOOSE to. Though technically I track macros, but you get the point.7
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »To clarify a few things from my post that seem to be misinterpreted
Should find/eat foods that are hard to overindulge on does not mean never eating other foods that you may like/love that are calorie dense. It just means this using this tactic makes it easier to not overeat since you aren't tracking every calorie. Then when you are faced with a food you have to be more cautious around, you are aware of that and take whatever steps necessary, probably eating a smaller portion, or limiting frequency.
How do you know if you are eating more/less. Several ways...the scale will trend up or down, your hunger will be higher/lower or you can know look at the foods you eat...a lot of low calorie foods eaten means you're eating less than if you were eating a lot of high calorie foods. If you've been tracking calories you know the high calorie bombs, and you know what's not.
Here is the problem. Eating food that are hard to overindulge in mean (to me) eating food I dont like that much. I've tried that twice before. I got bored after 2 months and gave up. If I tend to avoid foods that I'm more likely to eat, like samoosas, how will I know to intuitively eat less when I am faced with them since I have no idea what their nutritional make up is?
Oh use the hunger test you say? As already stated that doesn't work for me either. I'm permanently hungry. To give you idea, I can literally eat entire dish of cream and cheese rich lasagna and still be hungry. So no!
This part of your post confuses me. How does the scale help you not overindulge? I mean, you know 12 cookies is too much whether you weigh it or not. And calorie/nutrition information will be on the box of cookies. And after the lasagna you will still be hungry whether you measure or not.
I'm not saying you shouldn't log, I'm just not sure how these examples back up the need.
Firstly, no-one weighs a cookie when the box gives the the nutritional value per cookie do they? You look at 12 cookies and say "this is way too much". I look at 12 cookies and say "I'm just going to have 1" then I say "just 1 more" then I eat all 12. Logging tells me I can fit 1 or 2 or 12 cookies into my daily calorie allowance and how it fits into my macros. It visually helps me put into perspective (and limit) what I put into my body.
Yes I will still be hungry whether I weigh or not BUT weighing and portioning the lasagna, AGAIN, tells me how much of it I can have before I should stop. Again, a visual representation of what my body and brain should be telling me, but are not.
It's like putting fuel into a car. You know (from experience) that you get 15km on a liter of fuel so if you put in 4 liters you can drive 60kms. Makes the fuel gauge redundant according to your way of thinking and yet we all still look at it dont we.7 -
Sometimes the cookies aren't uniform weight. If we're dealing with a 70-calorie crispy chocolate chip cookie, I don't really care if it's off by a gram or two, though I might weigh broken pieces instead of assuming each one is 1/2 a cookie. But if it's something decadent like a Mrs. Field's soft-baked white chocolate macadamia nut (which I have not had since starting MFP, but at some point I will splurge)? I'm weighing that. 15 extra grams might have more of an impact.5
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I know everybody's different and different methods work for different people. But I stated I will be logging for life, but this is my choice. Now I have an extensive database of my usual foods/meals. It takes moments out of my day, but really helps keep me on track. I may be alright on a day to day basis without it. But I've found it so much easier to be able to work in occasional extras, or meals out, while still staying on track. It's also a great way for me to see at a glance, my macro balance, which has improved my health. So I see no reason to stop, but plenty of great reasons for me to continue. In a similar way I track our household finances.3
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »To clarify a few things from my post that seem to be misinterpreted
Should find/eat foods that are hard to overindulge on does not mean never eating other foods that you may like/love that are calorie dense. It just means this using this tactic makes it easier to not overeat since you aren't tracking every calorie. Then when you are faced with a food you have to be more cautious around, you are aware of that and take whatever steps necessary, probably eating a smaller portion, or limiting frequency.
How do you know if you are eating more/less. Several ways...the scale will trend up or down, your hunger will be higher/lower or you can know look at the foods you eat...a lot of low calorie foods eaten means you're eating less than if you were eating a lot of high calorie foods. If you've been tracking calories you know the high calorie bombs, and you know what's not.
Here is the problem. Eating food that are hard to overindulge in mean (to me) eating food I dont like that much. I've tried that twice before. I got bored after 2 months and gave up. If I tend to avoid foods that I'm more likely to eat, like samoosas, how will I know to intuitively eat less when I am faced with them since I have no idea what their nutritional make up is?
Oh use the hunger test you say? As already stated that doesn't work for me either. I'm permanently hungry. To give you idea, I can literally eat entire dish of cream and cheese rich lasagna and still be hungry. So no!
This part of your post confuses me. How does the scale help you not overindulge? I mean, you know 12 cookies is too much whether you weigh it or not. And calorie/nutrition information will be on the box of cookies. And after the lasagna you will still be hungry whether you measure or not.
I'm not saying you shouldn't log, I'm just not sure how these examples back up the need.
Firstly, no-one weighs a cookie when the box gives the the nutritional value per cookie do they? You look at 12 cookies and say "this is way too much". I look at 12 cookies and say "I'm just going to have 1" then I say "just 1 more" then I eat all 12. Logging tells me I can fit 1 or 2 or 12 cookies into my daily calorie allowance and how it fits into my macros. It visually helps me put into perspective (and limit) what I put into my body.
Yes I will still be hungry whether I weigh or not BUT weighing and portioning the lasagna, AGAIN, tells me how much of it I can have before I should stop. Again, a visual representation of what my body and brain should be telling me, but are not.
It's like putting fuel into a car. You know (from experience) that you get 15km on a liter of fuel so if you put in 4 liters you can drive 60kms. Makes the fuel gauge redundant according to your way of thinking and yet we all still look at it dont we.
Yes people do...the exact weight of a serving is not always what 1 in the package is....will it make a huge difference.
Not on that one thing but try your bread for toast, then crackers then X then X and it adds up over the week/month.
To the OP I find I weigh and log everyday now still after a couple of years but not as strict as I once was...
I don't eat till I am full...I eat till I am satisfied. But that usually means I eat in a couple of hours (snack).
Will I always log/weigh/calorie count...yes.3 -
I do not calorie count or own a scale, I am a maintainer and very happy,,, here today, gone tomorrow!, I am enjoying life to the fullest. if I want a drink, I drink. If I want a burger. I eat it!, and then I work it off.1
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KANGOOJUMPS wrote: »I do not calorie count or own a scale, I am a maintainer and very happy,,, here today, gone tomorrow!, I am enjoying life to the fullest. if I want a drink, I drink. If I want a burger. I eat it!, and then I work it off.
I do too, but there is this thing with intuitive eating, though. Some people can have that burger or that drink with just built habits and simple awareness, and trust their natural calorie regulating mechanisms to do most of the heavy lifting like spontaneously increased NEAT, reduced calorie intake after a high calorie day, being uncomfortable with being full, satiety that correlates with proper calories...etc. I don't know if you belong to that group, but that's basically what some people think everyone should strive to achieve.
I can eat the burger, but I need mimic these mechanisms manually by exercising extra, taking the calories of the burger into account when trying to decide what else I can/can't have that day, being aware of the temptation of being joyfully overfull, consciously reasoning with hunger if present or putting more effort into filling foods... and so on. I need more than just simple awareness. I need strategies and tools. I need a clear "if...then" plan for many situations. I need a mindful and calculated approach. To say that I should strive to function on autopilot because someone else does it successfully is like throwing a bunch of clothes in a manual washing machine (or even semi automatic) and expecting it to function like a fully automatic one, then blaming it for "not striving hard enough" when clothes don't get washed properly.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »To clarify a few things from my post that seem to be misinterpreted
Should find/eat foods that are hard to overindulge on does not mean never eating other foods that you may like/love that are calorie dense. It just means this using this tactic makes it easier to not overeat since you aren't tracking every calorie. Then when you are faced with a food you have to be more cautious around, you are aware of that and take whatever steps necessary, probably eating a smaller portion, or limiting frequency.
How do you know if you are eating more/less. Several ways...the scale will trend up or down, your hunger will be higher/lower or you can know look at the foods you eat...a lot of low calorie foods eaten means you're eating less than if you were eating a lot of high calorie foods. If you've been tracking calories you know the high calorie bombs, and you know what's not.
Here is the problem. Eating food that are hard to overindulge in mean (to me) eating food I dont like that much. I've tried that twice before. I got bored after 2 months and gave up. If I tend to avoid foods that I'm more likely to eat, like samoosas, how will I know to intuitively eat less when I am faced with them since I have no idea what their nutritional make up is?
Oh use the hunger test you say? As already stated that doesn't work for me either. I'm permanently hungry. To give you idea, I can literally eat entire dish of cream and cheese rich lasagna and still be hungry. So no!
This part of your post confuses me. How does the scale help you not overindulge? I mean, you know 12 cookies is too much whether you weigh it or not. And calorie/nutrition information will be on the box of cookies. And after the lasagna you will still be hungry whether you measure or not.
I'm not saying you shouldn't log, I'm just not sure how these examples back up the need.
Firstly, no-one weighs a cookie when the box gives the the nutritional value per cookie do they? You look at 12 cookies and say "this is way too much". I look at 12 cookies and say "I'm just going to have 1" then I say "just 1 more" then I eat all 12. Logging tells me I can fit 1 or 2 or 12 cookies into my daily calorie allowance and how it fits into my macros. It visually helps me put into perspective (and limit) what I put into my body.
Yes I will still be hungry whether I weigh or not BUT weighing and portioning the lasagna, AGAIN, tells me how much of it I can have before I should stop. Again, a visual representation of what my body and brain should be telling me, but are not.
It's like putting fuel into a car. You know (from experience) that you get 15km on a liter of fuel so if you put in 4 liters you can drive 60kms. Makes the fuel gauge redundant according to your way of thinking and yet we all still look at it dont we.
That's one of the sillier things I've read on this site. You obviously have no idea of my way of thinking, nor I yours. And that's okay. At least it's okay with me.5
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